2020 Presidential Election Thread: IT'S THE FINAL (vote) COUNTDOWN! [update pg 61: Joe Biden elected 46th POTUS]

[thebuzzardman]

I think a lot of it comes down to messaging

When you take progressive concepts by themselves and don't give context to them, the country loves them. Universal healthcare has like a 70% approval rating when people aren't given a name, just the policy. Same reason why 15 an hour won overwhelmingly in Florida but Biden lost handily

A lot of the country don't see themselves as being "progressive," so when you say "this is a progressive position," their opinion of it changes. And the Republicans have done an amazing job over the years of convincing people that progressivism is terrible. So what the Dems (more specifically, progressives) need to do is find a way to break the people out of this mindset, which isn't an easy thing. The moderates are scared to endorse more progressive ideology because they're afraid they'll lose voters, but if we could normalize the ideas, it wouldn't lose them voters because people would no longer see them as "progressive" positions, but mainstream ones. Still left-leaning, but not as far left as they're portrayed now.

I don't disagree. I'm just seeing in the debate on this board that some argue that running an AOC in every district is the answer. I don't think the data supports that.

To push progressive ideas forward, it will be a district by district, state by state effort. You're going to elect a lot more Joe Bidens, who are shrouding progressive ideas in a centrist platform, than AOCs over the span of the country.

That's not capitulation or corporatism or whatever. That might just be straight up reality based strategy.

Like I posted yesterday, this is the battlefield progressives are working in:

People will vote for policies that make sense. Universal healthcare, a living wage, and free colleges and universities are all ideas that poll well across the aisle. The reason the Democrats don't run on these ideas has nothing to do with red vs. blue. It has everything to do with the donor class, lobbyists, and corporatists who give money to the Democrats not wanting them to run on this. AOCs can win in any district of this country if the Dem party actually supported and promoted the ideas she believes in. The Democrats don't. They'd rather stay bent over for special interest so that they can continue to have their fundraisers in the Hamptons and private jets.

Yes. Corporatists only give money to the democrats. The Republican party historically, or currently, has nothing to do with catering to business interests.

[Clyde_Style]

Food for thought...

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Maybe things aren't as simple as they seem?

Biden did win because enough Republicans voted for him while still voting for the GOP down the rest of the ticket

[HarthorneWingo]

Cuomos a puss who's more worried about serving his donors then his constituents. How nobodys been able to muster up decent opposition to him in the election is beyond me.

He’s going to run for POTUS in ‘24.

How about AOC for Gov of NY?

Nah need her in the senate to keep those bitches on their toes

Schumer has to run for re-election in ‘22. Maybe he should just retire and endorse AOC as his replacement rather than doing The Walk of Shame after a loss in ‘22.

[Phish Tank]

Food for thought...

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Maybe things aren't as simple as they seem?

What AOC, Spanberger, and some of the other loudmouths on both the centrist & progressive wing fail to understand is that the words of one representative or senator doesn't just impact their state or district, but they'll positively or negatively impact everyone else in their party. The words of one congressman/woman will impact the rest of the party - both in the Senate & the House of Representatives.

When Ilhan Omar states "defund the Minneapolis Police," she's probably not wrong. But those words will be used and attached to every single person in your party. You just have to treat the party apparatus like a family. The words and actions of one family member affect everyone. It just does.

Again, it's not to say that the idea isn't wrong. But if you have to defend against yourself all the time from accusations of "defunding the police" or "socialism" all the time, it simply isn't good. While AOC & Ilhan Omar or Ro Khanna can get away with it in their districts, others just can't. There's not enough voters that support it in certain districts. Likewise, if blue dogs support Trumpish policies, it doesn't help anyone either.

Now - there's a good subsection of the population that understands perspective and context. I'm able to parse "defund the police" or other messages. But a majority of the country are not as informative and are easily swayed by misinformation. It's much easier to spread fearmongering fake news on Facebook or Whatsapp than it is to spread nuanced, intelligent conversations.

You can see some of this resonate in the results - in terms of underperformance. But I seriously ask everyone - from Spanberger, Bustos, and AOC to just STOP giving interviews about this election post-mortems.

And AOC shouldn't be trying to throw shade at Obama.... that's career suicide and I read that interview too.

Once this is done, everyone needs to get together - put the consultants away - and have some honest conversations on how to frame these conversations that are easily digestible for constitutents from New York City to San Francisco to Braddock, PA.

[Pointgod]

Things have to start being questioned. Like for example lets move off progressive policies. According to polls, people are for gun control, yet openly anti gun-control politicians have yet to have suffered the consequences of this. Even if you're arguing that theres some fear mongering, there's still a disconnect

Ditto for judges, public supposedly overwhelmingly supported the next president selecting the next supreme court judge, yet the two most vocal perpetrators against this just got easily voted back into the senate. We really need to start investigating this disconnect and finding out exactly how these polls are being disseminated.

I'll put alot of this blame onto the leadership, but even when I do so, there are other factors that cant be ignored.

Because people don’t vote on policies, they vote on partisanship and emotions. This election should make that clear. Florida voting for minimum wage is a very good example. Joe Biden promised to raise the minimum wage but Republicans wisely chose not to nationalize it because they know it’s a state and local issue. Congress can only pass laws to set Federal minimum wage. Florida voters didn’t connect minimum wage (FYI a socialist policy) to the Democratic Party so they don’t take into account that the same party they voted for President is the same one who’s going to block that minimum increase despite it being the will of the voters. It’s the exact same thing with restoring voting rights to ex felons. The people voted, Republicans blocked it and they’ll continue to vote for Republicans in the next cycle. Partisanship and emotion will always trump policy. That’s the new normal of politics. Democrats need to learn and adapt

[Clyde_Style]

Food for thought...

Spoiler:

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Maybe things aren't as simple as they seem?

I think a lot of it comes down to messaging

When you take progressive concepts by themselves and don't give context to them, the country loves them. Universal healthcare has like a 70% approval rating when people aren't given a name, just the policy. Same reason why 15 an hour won overwhelmingly in Florida but Biden lost handily

A lot of the country don't see themselves as being "progressive," so when you say "this is a progressive position," their opinion of it changes. And the Republicans have done an amazing job over the years of convincing people that progressivism is terrible. So what the Dems (more specifically, progressives) need to do is find a way to break the people out of this mindset, which isn't an easy thing. The moderates are scared to endorse more progressive ideology because they're afraid they'll lose voters, but if we could normalize the ideas, it wouldn't lose them voters because people would no longer see them as "progressive" positions, but mainstream ones. Still left-leaning, but not as far left as they're portrayed now.

I don't disagree. I'm just seeing in the debate on this board that some argue that running an AOC in every district is the answer. I don't think the data supports that.

To push progressive ideas forward, it will be a district by district, state by state effort. You're going to elect a lot more Joe Bidens, who are shrouding progressive ideas in a centrist platform, than AOCs over the span of the country.

That's not capitulation or corporatism or whatever. That might just be straight up reality based strategy.

Like I posted yesterday, this is the battlefield progressives are working in:

It will be necessary to take each major issue individually and assesss whether it is necessary to:

(a) Reframe the policy in question so that it is understood as favorable by those Republican voters who would actually benefit from it; or

(b) Go stealth on the policy in question and wrap it in a more moderate veneer

Neither requires lying, but it does require political skill. This is politics after all

[Oscirus]

He’s going to run for POTUS in ‘24.

How about AOC for Gov of NY?

Nah need her in the senate to keep those bitches on their toes

Schumer has to run for re-election in ‘22. Maybe he should just retire and endorse AOC as his replacement rather than doing The Walk of Shame after a loss in ‘22.

One can only hope. His strategy of yelling at republicans after they make him look weak and ineffectual doesn't seem to be working. Even he has to know that his time has come and gone by now.

[Clyde_Style]

I'm not here to take a position on Stacey Abrams's apparent ambition for higher office but, that said, she did a great job in Georgia in getting out the vote. And for that she deserves credit.

We know she's ambitious, has Clinton pedigree, is not a leftist. But this jerk blows in here the day Biden won blowing smoke calling people hacks and dissing Pointgod like a cretin. Yes, Abrams gets credit. And yes she has access to corporate money and is connected to a superpac. So let her use it to win GA in the runoffs. Don't need that guy's attitude.

TGW and I have history from the politics thread in the Wizards board. You have to understand Joe Biden winning is absolutely killing him inside. He wholeheartedly wanted to Trump to win so that he could bitch about Democrats being terrible NeoLiberal, Establishment shills. I don’t say this lightly he’s the left version of BallSacBounce

OK, thanks. I suspected something twisted like that with their insane false equivalency of Fox and MSNBC.

Also, what kind of self-confident person boasts about being an insider like that? They don't. He's a liar.

[SA37]

Part of the inflated cost of the US healthcare system has to do with its complexity and resulting inefficiency.
If we switched to a more reasonable system, the cost should decrease a bit.
There's no denying healthcare is expensive though.
One thing that the countries you listed have in common (and essentially all other countries have in common) is that they spend far less on their military than the US.
The US can afford to give everyone basic healthcare, it's just a question of priorities.

Oh yeah, I agree with everything you're saying. I wasn't defending the American healthcare system or making an argument not to change it; there are just economic realities that go with making healthcare affordable and more efficient. If healthcare doesn't generate the income it is generating now, the US has to make that up somehow. If it doesn't GDP will fall, but the US's debts will remain the same, making servicing the debt a larger part of the remaining GDP (aka more expensive). The other side is the number of jobs that would be lost at insurance companies, in the pharmaceutical industry, and in hospitals plus the reduced salaries of the entire medical sector. All of this would have a negative effect on tax collection, GDP, and unemployment.

[Clyde_Style]

He’s going to run for POTUS in ‘24.

How about AOC for Gov of NY?

Nah need her in the senate to keep those bitches on their toes

Schumer has to run for re-election in ‘22. Maybe he should just retire and endorse AOC as his replacement rather than doing The Walk of Shame after a loss in ‘22.

His neice Amy is going to run for his seat. You're going to be her campaign manager. You'll be getting high with her on the campaign bus, eating chocolate babka cake and roast battling each other.

[HarthorneWingo]

I'm not here to take a position on Stacey Abrams's apparent ambition for higher office but, that said, she did a great job in Georgia in getting out the vote. And for that she deserves credit.

We know she's ambitious, has Clinton pedigree, is not a leftist. But this jerk blows in here the day Biden won blowing smoke calling people hacks and dissing Pointgod like a cretin. Yes, Abrams gets credit. And yes she has access to corporate money and is connected to a superpac. So let her use it to win GA in the runoffs. Don't need that guy's attitude.

TGW and I have history from the politics thread in the Wizards board. You have to understand Joe Biden winning is absolutely killing him inside. He wholeheartedly wanted to Trump to win so that he could bitch about Democrats being terrible NeoLiberal, Establishment shills. I don’t say this lightly he’s the left version of BallSacBounce

[Im Coming Home]

Newest copium republican talking point: "ThE MeDia dOeSNt DeCidE thE elEctIOn!!>@#!#"

As if anyone's saying that talking point, also the misinformation going around that the Bush v Gore situation they're claiming they called it for Gore, when what really happened is they called it from Bush, Gore took it as the truth and conceded until he found out how close Florida actually was.

What they fail to realize is that this isn't going to come down to one state, Biden is leading in so many of the swing states that even if Trump actually pulls off flipping one of them back, Biden still wins.

Its honestly funny to see all the copium going around from the MAGA idiots the last day and a half, anything to help them feel better I guess.

[HarthorneWingo]

Nah need her in the senate to keep those bitches on their toes

Schumer has to run for re-election in ‘22. Maybe he should just retire and endorse AOC as his replacement rather than doing The Walk of Shame after a loss in ‘22.

His neice Amy is going to run for his seat. You're going to be her campaign manager. You'll be getting high with her on the campaign bus, eating chocolate babka cake and roast battling each other.

I can’t allow that. Amy Schumer is no better than her her Uncle Chuck. It pains me to say this but ... she a joke thief. It’s true. She steals joke from other comedians. I can’t be with a comedian who does that.

[HarthorneWingo]

Newest copium republican talking point: "ThE MeDia dOeSNt DeCidE thE elEctIOn!!>@#!#"

As if anyone's saying that talking point, also the misinformation going around that the Bush v Gore situation they're claiming they called it for Gore, when what really happened is they called it from Bush, Gore took it as the truth and conceded until he found out how close Florida actually was.

What they fail to realize is that this isn't going to come down to one state, Biden is leading in so many of the swing states that even if Trump actually pulls off flipping one of them back, Biden still wins.

Its honestly funny to see all the copium going around from the MAGA idiots the last day and a half, anything to help them feel better I guess.

If the shoe was on the other foot, they’d be making fun of us for being little snowflakes while they partied like it’s 1999. They can bitch and moan all they want. It’s over. We just need those two Georgia Senate seats.

[HotelVitale]

Biden did win because enough Republicans voted for him while still voting for the GOP down the rest of the ticket

That take seems debunked by my state of PA, which is as good a bellwether as anywhere for how swing states and independent/flip voters decide elections. Our Democrat governor, who's not particularly popular and is very far from charismatic, won last year by 17+ points, which suggests that there's not nearly as many committed Rep voters in the state as you're implying. More significantly, this year the Attorney General and Auditor General races were also on the ballot (both statewide races): the Democrat for AG performed significantly better than Biden--he won by about 4 pts--while the Auditor Dem candidate lost by 3 points. Biden of course won by half a point at best, so there's a lot more going on here than traditional GOP voters giving a one-off vote to Biden. There's also nothing special about the AG candidates, they were both pretty straightforward moderate Dem and respectable but maga-compatible Rep, sort of the local version of Biden and Trump.

[Im Coming Home]

Newest copium republican talking point: "ThE MeDia dOeSNt DeCidE thE elEctIOn!!>@#!#"

As if anyone's saying that talking point, also the misinformation going around that the Bush v Gore situation they're claiming they called it for Gore, when what really happened is they called it from Bush, Gore took it as the truth and conceded until he found out how close Florida actually was.

What they fail to realize is that this isn't going to come down to one state, Biden is leading in so many of the swing states that even if Trump actually pulls off flipping one of them back, Biden still wins.

Its honestly funny to see all the copium going around from the MAGA idiots the last day and a half, anything to help them feel better I guess.

If the shoe was on the other foot, they’d be making fun of us for being little snowflakes while they partied like it’s 1999. They can bitch and moan all they want. It’s over. We just need those two Georgia Senate seats.

I honestly hope the whole Trump losing situation shows that the MAGA idiots truly don't care about the rest of the republican party and causes their voter turnout to be trash. That or they'll be distracted by the Trump losing but trying to hold on in the courts situation to care about Georgia.

I think it boils down to if Trump has the ability to go to Georgia and campaign for the party he's in or not, part of me says no, he's going to be too busy sulking and playing golf for the next 3 months or so to campaign for senate seats that won't effect him since he won't be president anymore. I hope I'm right.

I already know the Democrats are making a push for those 2 seats as you can see Stacey Abrams and others(AOC, etc) already setting their sites on getting even more voters registered for the run off. I hope it'll be enough, it'll be nice not to have a obstructionist Senate and allow democrats to actually get **** down without having to water it down or pander to the Republicans like they had to with the ACA which is why the ACA has turned out to not be as great as it could have been.

[Clyde_Style]

Food for thought...

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Maybe things aren't as simple as they seem?

What AOC, Spanberger, and some of the other loudmouths on both the centrist & progressive wing fail to understand is that the words of one representative or senator doesn't just impact their state or district, but they'll positively or negatively impact everyone else in their party. The words of one congressman/woman will impact the rest of the party - both in the Senate & the House of Representatives.

When Ilhan Omar states "defund the Minneapolis Police," she's probably not wrong. But those words will be used and attached to every single person in your party. You just have to treat the party apparatus like a family. The words and actions of one family member affect everyone. It just does.

Again, it's not to say that the idea isn't wrong. But if you have to defend against yourself all the time from accusations of "defunding the police" or "socialism" all the time, it simply isn't good. While AOC & Ilhan Omar or Ro Khanna can get away with it in their districts, others just can't. There's not enough voters that support it in certain districts. Likewise, if blue dogs support Trumpish policies, it doesn't help anyone either.

Now - there's a good subsection of the population that understands perspective and context. I'm able to parse "defund the police" or other messages. But a majority of the country are not as informative and are easily swayed by misinformation. It's much easier to spread fearmongering fake news on Facebook or Whatsapp than it is to spread nuanced, intelligent conversations.

You can see some of this resonate in the results - in terms of underperformance. But I seriously ask everyone - from Spanberger, Bustos, and AOC to just STOP giving interviews about this election post-mortems.

And AOC shouldn't be trying to throw shade at Obama.... that's career suicide and I read that interview too.

Once this is done, everyone needs to get together - put the consultants away - and have some honest conversations on how to frame these conversations that are easily digestible for constitutents from New York City to San Francisco to Braddock, PA.

Some of these miscalculations and willful decoupling from overall Democratic Party messaging can be attributed to the allure of radical chic and the desire of some to feed their fans in the leftist podcast and indy media world. Sabotaging party objectives in order to distinguish yourself as anti-corporate doesn't always necessarily even translate into a winning strategy individually anyway, but some would rather chew off their own foot than to work for the "machine." Gotta maintain that cred.

[Im Coming Home]

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-voter-fraud-facts-explai/explainer-despite-trump-claims-voter-fraud-is-extremely-rare-here-is-how-u-s-states-keep-it-that-way-idUSKBN2601HG

P.s. heres some statistics on voter fraud and how little it actually happens, when will someone stop allowing republicans to lie to the public and act like voter fraud is something that happens super commonly. (they've been saying this for years, even before Trump, claiming dead people voting and **** like that)

[Clyde_Style]

Schumer has to run for re-election in ‘22. Maybe he should just retire and endorse AOC as his replacement rather than doing The Walk of Shame after a loss in ‘22.

His neice Amy is going to run for his seat. You're going to be her campaign manager. You'll be getting high with her on the campaign bus, eating chocolate babka cake and roast battling each other.

I can’t allow that. Amy Schumer is no better than her her Uncle Chuck. It pains me to say this but ... she a joke thief. It’s true. She steals joke from other comedians. I can’t be with a comedian who does that.

Didn't know she was a female Carlos Mencia. Still, your choice is to get blown on her campaign bus privately or by BallSac on national TV. Your move

[Oscirus]

His neice Amy is going to run for his seat. You're going to be her campaign manager. You'll be getting high with her on the campaign bus, eating chocolate babka cake and roast battling each other.

I can’t allow that. Amy Schumer is no better than her her Uncle Chuck. It pains me to say this but ... she a joke thief. It’s true. She steals joke from other comedians. I can’t be with a comedian who does that.

Didn't know she was a female Carlos Mencia. Still, your choice is to get blown on her campaign bus privately or by BallSac on national TV. Your move

she says its parallel thinking but it happens enough where it starts to get questionable.

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