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Indiana Pacers Draft Pick Watch Thread

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Re: Indiana Pacers Draft Pick Watch Thread 

Post#1781 » by Baddy Chuck » Tue Nov 10, 2020 12:31 pm

Ruzious wrote:Yeah, Mitchell would be the absolute ceiling, but stat guys say Mitchell is overrated aside from his good defense. The Bucks need shooters around Giannis. That's the problem with Bledsoe.

A good shooter would bail out Giannis maybe a few times a game but man I still can't really see how people believe that is our problem. The problem with Bledsoe is that his strengths and weaknesses align with our star and when defenses find a way to halt our freak MVP, Eric Bledsoe surely isn't going to be finding many holes in that same defense. When things are grooving Bledsoe is honestly a "good" fit with Giannis. I honestly can't believe people who have watched the Bucks for the last 2-3 years look at our holes and think a Seth Curry and Tony Snell fill the gaps around Giannis. The gaps around Giannis are almost all created by Giannis' deficiencies and almost none of those are bandaged up by a guy standing at the three point line who shoots 40% or something.
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Re: Indiana Pacers Draft Pick Watch Thread 

Post#1782 » by Ruzious » Tue Nov 10, 2020 1:11 pm

Baddy Chuck wrote:
Ruzious wrote:Yeah, Mitchell would be the absolute ceiling, but stat guys say Mitchell is overrated aside from his good defense. The Bucks need shooters around Giannis. That's the problem with Bledsoe.

A good shooter would bail out Giannis maybe a few times a game but man I still can't really see how people believe that is our problem. The problem with Bledsoe is that his strengths and weaknesses align with our star and when defenses find a way to halt our freak MVP, Eric Bledsoe surely isn't going to be finding many holes in that same defense. When things are grooving Bledsoe is honestly a "good" fit with Giannis. I honestly can't believe people who have watched the Bucks for the last 2-3 years look at our holes and think a Seth Curry and Tony Snell fill the gaps around Giannis. The gaps around Giannis are almost all created by Giannis' deficiencies and almost none of those are bandaged up by a guy standing at the three point line who shoots 40% or something.

It's basic common sense that having shooters stretches defenses and allows additional space for Giannis to drive to the basket. Obviously the ability to make a 3 is not the only thing that's important, and someone like Snell is not particularly effective, while someone like Curry is.
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Re: Indiana Pacers Draft Pick Watch Thread 

Post#1783 » by Baddy Chuck » Tue Nov 10, 2020 1:24 pm

Ruzious wrote:It's basic common sense that having shooters stretches defenses and allows additional space for Giannis to drive to the basket.

And I feel like over the years with guys like Lopez, Midds, Brogdon, Hill, Korver, Snell, Matthews etc etc around him that we've seen these mythical "surround Giannis with shooters" calls not be cure at all. More than anything I think it's abundantly obvious that we need more points of attack than Giannis. You poo-poo a guy like Mitchell as a fit with Giannis but holy **** do I think he'd open up a ton more for Giannis than a "shooter" would.
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Re: Indiana Pacers Draft Pick Watch Thread 

Post#1784 » by machu46 » Tue Nov 10, 2020 1:46 pm

Baddy Chuck wrote:
Ruzious wrote:It's basic common sense that having shooters stretches defenses and allows additional space for Giannis to drive to the basket.

And I feel like over the years, with guys like Lopez, Midds, Brogdon, Hill, Korver, Snell, Matthews etc etc around him that we've seen these mythical "surround Giannis with shooters" calls not be cure at all. More than anything I think it's abundantly obvious that we need more points of attack than Giannis. You poo-poo a guy like Mitchell as a fit with Giannis but holy **** do I think he'd open up a ton more for Giannis than a "shooter" would.

Yeah I totally agree with this. Shooting is probably #3 or 4 on my list of priorities this offseason personally. Would certainly be nice to have but I’d much rather have a guy like Maxey than a better shooter like Bane or something (who I also like a decent amount!)


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Indiana Pacers Draft Pick Watch Thread 

Post#1785 » by machu46 » Tue Nov 10, 2020 1:58 pm

Listening to the Zach Lowe pod with the DraftExpress guys, they’re talking about Killian Hayes. Givony says Chicago and Detroit are interested in him, but that he has Hayes going #12 in his mock that will be released tomorrow and he says he wouldn’t be surprised if he falls out of the lottery entirely.

Edit: Also potentially of interest to us, Lowe is saying a lot of very good teams have been surprisingly calling about moving up into the top 10 of the draft, possibly for Okongwu or Patrick Williams

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Re: Indiana Pacers Draft Pick Watch Thread 

Post#1786 » by All The Bucks » Tue Nov 10, 2020 2:14 pm

The Bucks need people who can dribble a basketball without it going off their leg when challenged by a defender. Don't anyone forget that.
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Re: Indiana Pacers Draft Pick Watch Thread 

Post#1787 » by Brewhoopfan » Tue Nov 10, 2020 3:27 pm

Baddy Chuck wrote:
Ruzious wrote:It's basic common sense that having shooters stretches defenses and allows additional space for Giannis to drive to the basket.

And I feel like over the years with guys like Lopez, Midds, Brogdon, Hill, Korver, Snell, Matthews etc etc around him that we've seen these mythical "surround Giannis with shooters" calls not be cure at all. More than anything I think it's abundantly obvious that we need more points of attack than Giannis. You poo-poo a guy like Mitchell as a fit with Giannis but holy **** do I think he'd open up a ton more for Giannis than a "shooter" would.


Yep. Playoff defenses will run shooters off the line. Of the players you mentioned, only Hill and Brogdon are effective at all off the dribble, and both are far from dynamic playmakers. I'll take a 35% playmaker over a 40% shooter every time.
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Re: Indiana Pacers Draft Pick Watch Thread 

Post#1788 » by Ruzious » Tue Nov 10, 2020 4:22 pm

Baddy Chuck wrote:
Ruzious wrote:It's basic common sense that having shooters stretches defenses and allows additional space for Giannis to drive to the basket.

And I feel like over the years with guys like Lopez, Midds, Brogdon, Hill, Korver, Snell, Matthews etc etc around him that we've seen these mythical "surround Giannis with shooters" calls not be cure at all. More than anything I think it's abundantly obvious that we need more points of attack than Giannis. You poo-poo a guy like Mitchell as a fit with Giannis but holy **** do I think he'd open up a ton more for Giannis than a "shooter" would.

Hold on a sec before you put any more of your words in my mouth.

We were talking about getting Maxey; not Mitchell - who we're obviously not getting. Mitchell being the absolute max that Maxey will ever be. And I just said that Snell isn't the kind of player I'd look for. I don't want 1 dimensional players. I want good players that are 3 point shooting threats. And I'm sick of Bucks fans talking like the last 2 seasons have been failures. Obviously we want to win NBA championships, but to come from where we were before the last 2 seasons has been fantastic. Appreciate that; don't spit on it.
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Re: Indiana Pacers Draft Pick Watch Thread 

Post#1789 » by WeekapaugGroove » Tue Nov 10, 2020 4:51 pm

RiotPunch wrote:I think Toppin is gonna be a disaster on defense, and he's 22 already. I'm way lower on him than most.
Toppin is really hard for me to judge. I'm probably in the down on him category because I just don't know what he'll be able to guard (too small for 5s can't move enough for 4s). BUT it also wouldn't surprise me if he ended up so good offensively that he's a number 1 option and you won't care that much about his D and you justify building defenders around him.

Also he seems like a smart dude who should try hard and those two things alone can make you somewhat passable on D even with physical limitations.

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Re: Indiana Pacers Draft Pick Watch Thread 

Post#1790 » by leroyjw10 » Tue Nov 10, 2020 4:55 pm

WeekapaugGroove wrote:
RiotPunch wrote:I think Toppin is gonna be a disaster on defense, and he's 22 already. I'm way lower on him than most.
Toppin is really hard for me to judge. I'm probably in the down on him category because I just don't know what he'll be able to guard (too small for 5s can't move enough for 4s). BUT it also wouldn't surprise me if he ended up so good offensively that he's a number 1 option and you won't care that much about his D and you justify building defenders around him.

Also he seems like a smart dude who should try hard and those two things alone can make you somewhat passable on D even with physical limitations.

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Toppin wreaks of Derrick Williams 2.0.
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Re: Indiana Pacers Draft Pick Watch Thread 

Post#1791 » by WeekapaugGroove » Tue Nov 10, 2020 5:03 pm

leroyjw10 wrote:
WeekapaugGroove wrote:
RiotPunch wrote:I think Toppin is gonna be a disaster on defense, and he's 22 already. I'm way lower on him than most.
Toppin is really hard for me to judge. I'm probably in the down on him category because I just don't know what he'll be able to guard (too small for 5s can't move enough for 4s). BUT it also wouldn't surprise me if he ended up so good offensively that he's a number 1 option and you won't care that much about his D and you justify building defenders around him.

Also he seems like a smart dude who should try hard and those two things alone can make you somewhat passable on D even with physical limitations.

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Toppin wreaks of Derrick Williams 2.0.
Ha man Williams was maybe the most wrong I've ever been about a top prospect. I LOVED him coming out and would have taken him ahead of Rose.

One Williams thing that whomever takes Obi better hope doesn't happen is the 3pt shooting being a mirage. Williams was great from 3 that last year in college and it didn't translate to the NBA what so ever. If Obi can't hit 3s in the pros that would submarine my already sketchy feeling about him.

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Re: Indiana Pacers Draft Pick Watch Thread 

Post#1792 » by emunney » Tue Nov 10, 2020 5:17 pm

Dok had 29 points on 12-15 shooting against Dayton. Most of the time he was catching with a foot on the restricted line.
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Re: Indiana Pacers Draft Pick Watch Thread 

Post#1793 » by LuessiT » Tue Nov 10, 2020 5:19 pm

RiotPunch wrote:I think Toppin is gonna be a disaster on defense, and he's 22 already. I'm way lower on him than most.


Who does he even guard? There are somewhat similar players doing reasonably well in the NBA like John Collins, Christian Wood, Montrezl Harrell and the likes. But these players are all on cheap contracts and we'll see how valueable they'll really be once they get the big bucks. There's definately room for him in the NBA but I'd be very vary of handing such an archetype a big second contract and thus I have him at the end of the lottery myself.
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Re: Indiana Pacers Draft Pick Watch Thread 

Post#1794 » by machu46 » Tue Nov 10, 2020 5:33 pm

LuessiT wrote:
RiotPunch wrote:I think Toppin is gonna be a disaster on defense, and he's 22 already. I'm way lower on him than most.


Who does he even guard? There are somewhat similar players doing reasonably well in the NBA like John Collins, Christian Wood, Montrezl Harrell and the likes. But these players are all on cheap contracts and we'll see how valueable they'll really be once they get the big bucks. There's definately room for him in the NBA but I'd be very vary of handing such an archetype a big second contract and thus I have him at the end of the lottery myself.


I agree with this and I also think Toppin projects as a worse defender than any of those guys and probably by a significant amount.
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Re: Indiana Pacers Draft Pick Watch Thread 

Post#1795 » by emunney » Tue Nov 10, 2020 5:54 pm

LuessiT wrote:
RiotPunch wrote:I think Toppin is gonna be a disaster on defense, and he's 22 already. I'm way lower on him than most.


Who does he even guard? There are somewhat similar players doing reasonably well in the NBA like John Collins, Christian Wood, Montrezl Harrell and the likes. But these players are all on cheap contracts and we'll see how valueable they'll really be once they get the big bucks. There's definately room for him in the NBA but I'd be very vary of handing such an archetype a big second contract and thus I have him at the end of the lottery myself.


Toppin can score off the dribble so he's a little bit different from those guys as prospects. Even with that, though, I think there are a lot of questions about whether that particular skill will translate, and if it doesn't, there's really nothing justifying why he'd go let's say 6 and Yoeli Childs would not be drafted.
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Re: Indiana Pacers Draft Pick Watch Thread 

Post#1796 » by Ron Swanson » Tue Nov 10, 2020 5:55 pm

I lean the other way with Toppin. Think he's a pretty safe 20/8 guy and he's getting mocked right about where I'd draft him in that 7-12 range. Guys that efficient and athletic tend to translate as scorers. Defensively I see a guy that at least tries, even if his length and instincts aren't great. More worried about his rebounding than his defense. Trez or Amare-lite with legit shooting range would be a damn good player.
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Re: Indiana Pacers Draft Pick Watch Thread 

Post#1797 » by emunney » Tue Nov 10, 2020 6:02 pm

Toppin is by no means a good defender but I don't think he's quite as bad as everyone's saying. His technique needs a lot of work and he's a one effort guy (this is also part of why he's not a better rebounder -- no pursuit). I'd be surprised if he's ever a good defender, but he could end up being Tobias level for sure, which is workable, while being a more explosive offensive threat.
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Re: Indiana Pacers Draft Pick Watch Thread 

Post#1798 » by machu46 » Tue Nov 10, 2020 6:08 pm

Mock Draft (with no trades) from John Hollinger based on what he's hearing:
https://theathletic.com/2188482/2020/11/10/2020-nba-mock-draft-whos-going-where-in-the-first-round/

One notable thing he pointed out before getting into the picks:

- PGs and Cs will slide in the draft. He specifically mentions that maybe half of the following group of PGs will end up going in the first round: Kira Lewis, Tyrell Terry, Cole Anthony, Malachi Flynn, Devon Dotson, Payton Pritchard, Tre Jones and Cassius Winston. He specifically left off Nico Mannion because it sounds like his interviews with teams have been a disaster. Regarding the centers, he says "Precious Achiuwa, Jalen Smith, Zeke Nnaji, Isaiah Stewart, Xavier Tillman, Udoka Azubuike and Daniel Oturu all are mid-to-late first-round talents, in the eyes of at least some evaluators. I’m not sure more than three of them actually go in the first round."

1. LaMelo Ball - Notes that if Minnesota does trade down to, say, #3, they could take Tyrese Haliburton over Anthony Edwards.
2. James Wiseman
3. Anthony Edwards - Notes that seemingly every team is nervous about Edwards/not excited to be the team that ends up with him. Also mentions Obi Toppin as a possibility here.
4. Tyrese Haliburton - The flipside of Edwards is that seemingly every team likes Haliburton.
5. Obi Toppin - Mentions that the only two names he's heard linked to Cleveland are Toppin and Avdija. He mentions that if the pick is Toppin, he thinks Larry Nance might get moved (specifically to Boston).
6. Deni Avdija - Thinks they want Haliburton but settle for Avdija or Vassell.
7. Patrick Williams - Rumor is Detroit has promised or at least strongly indicated that he's their guy. Also mentions a possible trade between Detroit and Washington so that Washington can get Okongwu and Detroit get Williams + an asset.
8. Tyrese Maxey - Says you hear Killian Hayes linked to the Knicks a lot as well.
9. Onyeka Okongwu - He says Okongwu going top 9 is the easiest lock in the draft at this point because Washington is praying for him. If he's gone, he thinks Washington may trade with Boston for their 3 first round picks or if they must stay at 9, Isaac Okoro is the guy.
10. Killian Hayes - He says this pick is basically down to Hayes and Kira Lewis. He gives the edge to Hayes because he has enough size to play next to guys like Rubio, Payne, and Jevon Carter that Lewis doesn't have.
11. Isaac Okoro - Thinks the Spurs might be looking to move down, but thinks they'd be happy to have Okoro or Vassell.
12. Devin Vassell - Thinks this is the floor for Vassell.
13. Kira Lewis - Hasn't really heard anything about New Orleans so he just gave them BPA.
14. Saddiq Bey - Also mentions Aleksej Pokusevski if Boston keeps the pick and opts for a draft-and-stash
15. Aaron Nesmith - Rumors Orlando might take Jaden McDaniels here given their love of raw lengthy wings.
16. RJ Hampton - He mentions that there are some seemingly insane rumors with Portland right now; notably, taking Jay Scrubb.
17. Precious Achiuwa
18. Aleksej Pokusevski - It's believed that someone in the first round has promised Poku, which is why he shut everything down this year.
19. Tyrell Terry - Draftniks believe that Terry has jumped ahead of Cole Anthony. He's heard rumblings of McDaniels and Poku being targets for Brooklyn as well.
20. Jalen Smith - Basic idea is that Jalen replaces Olynyk. He's also heard Tyler Bey mentioned here.
21. Cole Anthony - Says this pick is widely available.
22. Theo Maledon - It's believed that Maledon has received a promise from someone. If not Denver, he thinks they go with a C.
23. Josh Green - Says there's a ton of noise that Green is the guy Utah wants, though they could opt for Desmond Bane instead.
24. Desmond Bane - Everyone is saying Bane will ultimately go higher than expected and Hollinger thinks this might be too low for him. Doesn't mention any other options for us but he thinks this is basically Bane's floor.
25. Jaden McDaniels - Basically just says this is the type of prospect OKC usually goes for.
26. Leandro Bolmaro - Says Robert Woodard is the type of guy Boston generally goes for, but he and everyone he's spoken to around the league don't view Woodard as a 1st round prospect.
27. Malachi Flynn - Says there's a lot of chatter that the Knicks want Flynn.
28. Isaiah Stewart - Says after Desmond Bane, Stewart has been the best interviewer in the draft class.
29. Zeke Nnaji - Says that Nnaji offers 3 point shooting from the C spot to space the floor for Giannis :x but also for Siakam and Norman Powell.
30. Tyler Bey - Says the other guys he's heard could sneak into the 1st instead of Bey are Jordan Nwora, Daniel Oturu, Payton Pritchard, and Xavier Tillman.
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Re: Indiana Pacers Draft Pick Watch Thread 

Post#1799 » by LuessiT » Tue Nov 10, 2020 6:11 pm

emunney wrote:Toppin is by no means a good defender but I don't think he's quite as bad as everyone's saying. His technique needs a lot of work and he's a one effort guy (this is also part of why he's not a better rebounder -- no pursuit). I'd be surprised if he's ever a good defender, but he could end up being Tobias level for sure, which is workable, while being a more explosive offensive threat.


I don't see that mostly for the reason that I think he's a center offensively. And it's much harder to hide defensively when you're supposed to defend PnRs and protect the rim.
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Re: Indiana Pacers Draft Pick Watch Thread 

Post#1800 » by RiotPunch » Tue Nov 10, 2020 8:46 pm

emunney wrote:Toppin is by no means a good defender but I don't think he's quite as bad as everyone's saying. His technique needs a lot of work and he's a one effort guy (this is also part of why he's not a better rebounder -- no pursuit). I'd be surprised if he's ever a good defender, but he could end up being Tobias level for sure, which is workable, while being a more explosive offensive threat.

Can technique fix his freakshow level high center of gravity though? He'll never be able to flip his hips adequately. Not his fault, but pretty damning if you are asking him to defend out on the perimeter.
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