2020 NBA Draft Prospects: Thread II

[minimus]

Sorry for off topic

[KGdaBom]

Anybody else getting Privacy Error every time they try to access Forums@realgm.com?
I have to click advanced and choose proceed to website every single page. Their certificate or something is expired and it is a pain in the a$$.

[UnFadeable21]

The Athletic - John Hollinger Mock Draft


“These aren’t my personal ratings. I published my draft board, including my top 23 players and my best of the rest (24 through 70), over the summer. That’s how I would rank these guys, and little has changed since then, given that nobody played any games for the last seven months.

This mock draft is different. What you’ll see below is what I expect teams might do, not what I would do in their shoes.

But I digress. With those asides, here’s how my crystal ball looks right now:”

1. Minnesota – LaMelo Ball, PG, Illawarra Hawks

6-7
6-10 Wingspan
190 lbs

Minnesota continues to explore trade opportunities, in part because that’s how this front office is wired. But I’ve also heard some chatter that the Wolves are in win-now mode. To which I would retort a confused … why?

The Wolves aren’t making the playoffs this year with their current roster, and their two best players are at the beginning of long-term deals. Now is the time to assemble all the pieces that make you so good two years from now that Karl Towns and D’Angelo Russell aren’t looking for greener pastures; it is not the time to go all-in on the No. 8 seed and hope that Towns appreciates it three years from now. Why are you doing this, Wolves? WHY?

Anyway …

I’m fairly certain the first pick in the draft will be either LaMelo Ball or James Wiseman. Ball is the biggest talent, but Wiseman could end up No. 1 if the Wolves trade down with Charlotte. (One possible construction: The third pick, Miles Bridges and the 32nd pick for the first pick, Jacob Evans and Omari Spellman.) That would leave the Wolves in a position to gather some assets and select Anthony Edwards with the third pick, who fits better with the Russell-Towns pair than Ball does.

But I think that scenario is slightly unlikely, and if not, I think Minnesota — or whichever team picks here that isn’t Charlotte — takes Ball. He’s the most talented player and likely will have the most trade value. There are still warts here, relative to the top pick in most drafts: His jumper is shaky at best, he needs to dial up the defense, and from what I’ve heard his interviews were somewhere between mediocre and flat-out bad.

One other player to watch out for: Tyrese Haliburton. Minnesota isn’t taking him first, but I could see the Wolves going for him instead of Edwards if they trade down.


17. Minnesota – Precious Achiuwa, PF/C, Memphis

6’9 height
7’2 wingspan
225lbs

This pick, like most in the 15 to 21 range, is actively being shopped, but it’s not clear to me who the buyer would be or at what price.

So let’s presume for now that the T’wolves pick. I’ve seen some Jalen Smith talk here, but I don’t really see it – he’s too stiff defensively to play next to Towns. It almost feels a bit smokescreen-y.

Meanwhile, Achiuwa doesn’t fit the 3-point vibe that’s likely to be a big part of Minnesota’s future, but otherwise checks some necessary boxes as a multi-positional, switchable frontcourt defender. He can play smallball 5 when Towns is off the floor but stay on the court next to Towns, too, especially if his shot comes around.

[Overall Big Board]

1. LaMelo Ball, PG/SG, Illawara Hawks

In an ideal world, you’d like the top-rated player on the draft board to be somebody who actually tried on defense. Alas, that option doesn’t appear to be on the table this year. The two most talented players, Ball and Anthony Edwards, both submitted staggering displays of indifference at that end. Other players you’ll read about in a minute were more solid, but don’t possess nearly the upside of these two players.

That matters because the draft is primarily about upside, especially at the top. Whiff on a top-5 pick and you’ll get another one a year later. But for the non-glamour markets, this is your team’s best (and perhaps only) chance to hitch its wagon to a star.

Ball played only 13 games in Australia this season and the results weren’t always spectacular, but he’s atop my board because he showed the ability to do things most NBA players simply can’t. He’s an amazing passer off the dribble, particularly with his right hand, and his rebounds sometimes turn into full-court TD passes that hit the receiver’s hands perfectly in stride. At 6-6, he can see over the defense too.

Ball combines that with a very solid handle. Relative to his older brother with the Pelicans, LaMelo is much looser in the hips and can change directions more easily, and that makes him a much more dangerous navigator around screens.

Ball is a poor shooter right now and in spite of that will take some adventurous long-range shots, and his skill as a finisher could also use some work. It’s possible he ends up as just a bigger Ricky Rubio – brilliant in transition, but not so much in the halfcourt.

Defensively, Ball’s half-assed efforts are a concern, but he has the tools to do the job and he anticipates plays well … too well, actually, as he just tries for steals instead of playing solid. I don’t worry overly much about the defense – he’s very young and once he can’t get away with gambling and has to try, I’m guessing he will. As an added plus, he’s a very good rebounder for his size.

All told, however, it could be a wild ride in his first couple of seasons. Between his penchant for home-run passes, the YOLO 40-foot pull-ups, and the defense, he definitely will drive his first coach insane.

Overall, you can make a case that somebody like Killian Hayes or Onyeka Okongwu will have a better career. But I think Ball has the best chance of playing in an All-Star Game of anyone in this draft. Players of his size who have plus athleticism, can handle the ball, and fire laser beams all over the court are extremely rare. You grab them when you can and then deal with the warts.

20. Precious Achiuwa, PF, Memphis

Achiuwa could be a complete disaster on offense; he’s a below-average shooter with no concept of what a good shot is and little interest in generating one for a teammate. But his size and motor alone land him in my top 20; just by rebounding, running and defending he can probably earn minutes as long as he isn’t a complete pig on offense.

Achiuwa tempts scouts with his energy and athleticism, posting an awesome rebound rate and getting easy baskets with put-backs and transitions. He also has a decent handle for a big and can use it to generate shots, although he does that far too willingly.

While Achiuwa profiles as a forward, he played 5 at Memphis and rebounds well enough to steal minutes as a smallball 5 in the pros. If he gets his shooting up to snuff he could be a mismatch proposition at this spot. At the same time, he can play some 3 in the right lineup as well. His positional flexibility is a major plus.

Defensively, he’s a switchable big who can keep guards in front of him in short-clock situations. Relative to a player like Paul Reed, whom I’ve ranked much higher, Achiuwa is similar but has more questions marks about his offensive feel and isn’t on the same level as a defensive force. That’s why he’s more of an overall gamble. He’s the same age and same size as Reed, so I’m a little bewildered that he’s universally slotted 30-40 spots higher.

[Jedzz]

BSPN has been pushing Ball to MN for more than 2 months trying to push us into taking him.
They want Wiseman in Golden State with Steph and Klay.
Then in same article Givony says trade up offers for 1 are a lot better than you would think.

Golden State smokescreening about everyone but Wiseman. Read between the lines.

If we take Ball for ourselves at one It will be a total disaster, but it would be a classic Timberwolves thing to do.

To me Edwards is 75% chance Lance Stephenson/Tyrek Evans/Dion Waiters, 5% chance Dwayne Wade, 20% chance in between.
Broken shot and poor BBIQ. I'm not seeing the upside some of the talking heads see.

So the conspiracy is ESPN, Bleacher Report, The Athletic, Dunc’d on Podcast (Nate Duncan), and Chad Ford, all of which have Ball in his own tier? Hmmmmm.....

Really the only National draft guy that has someone above Ball is Kevin O’Connor from the Ringer, who has Killian Hayes #1.

I wonder what would happen if nobody knew the draft order until one week before the draft. Epecially now when it's supposedly easier to slide up in the lotto.

[Dewey]

BSPN has been pushing Ball to MN for more than 2 months trying to push us into taking him.
They want Wiseman in Golden State with Steph and Klay.
Then in same article Givony says trade up offers for 1 are a lot better than you would think.

Golden State smokescreening about everyone but Wiseman. Read between the lines.

If we take Ball for ourselves at one It will be a total disaster, but it would be a classic Timberwolves thing to do.

To me Edwards is 75% chance Lance Stephenson/Tyrek Evans/Dion Waiters, 5% chance Dwayne Wade, 20% chance in between.
Broken shot and poor BBIQ. I'm not seeing the upside some of the talking heads see.

So the conspiracy is ESPN, Bleacher Report, The Athletic, Dunc’d on Podcast (Nate Duncan), and Chad Ford, all of which have Ball in his own tier? Hmmmmm.....

Really the only National draft guy that has someone above Ball is Kevin O’Connor from the Ringer, who has Killian Hayes #1.

I wonder what would happen if nobody knew the draft order until one week before the draft. Epecially now when it's supposedly easier to slide up in the lotto.

I’d like to see the media elite minds show their draft rankings “without” poachIng 95% of it from scouts ... I think it would be comical. I suppose there is a small handful that stay tuned in, but I bet a vast majority would not be able to operate without the internet/google.

[urinesane]

I don't understand how everyone repeats the motto that you draft the best player available and then in our situation says that a player doesn't fit.

Isn't the point to not care about fit and get the best player? How many times have teams drafted for fit and missed out on great players? Way more than drafting for fit has worked imo.

[Dewey]

I don't understand how everyone repeats the motto that you draft the best player available and then in our situation says that a player doesn't fit.

Isn't the point to not care about fit and get the best player? How many times have teams drafted for fit and missed out on great players? Way more than drafting for fit has worked imo.

Ya generally you draft BPA and trade for fit/need... easy to get burned when you try to accomplish both in one swing in a draft lacking 1-2 elite players that have separated from the pack.

[shangrila]

I don't understand how everyone repeats the motto that you draft the best player available and then in our situation says that a player doesn't fit.

Isn't the point to not care about fit and get the best player? How many times have teams drafted for fit and missed out on great players? Way more than drafting for fit has worked imo.

Ya generally you draft BPA and trade for fit/need... easy to get burned when you try to accomplish both in one swing in a draft lacking 1-2 elite players that have separated from the pack.

It's foolish to ignore fit entirely though. If you don't believe Towns and Wiseman can co-exist, for example, then Wiseman won't be the BPA because he won't be able to reach his potential and/or be utilised to the best of his ability here.

[urinesane]

I don't understand how everyone repeats the motto that you draft the best player available and then in our situation says that a player doesn't fit.

Isn't the point to not care about fit and get the best player? How many times have teams drafted for fit and missed out on great players? Way more than drafting for fit has worked imo.

Ya generally you draft BPA and trade for fit/need... easy to get burned when you try to accomplish both in one swing in a draft lacking 1-2 elite players that have separated from the pack.

It's foolish to ignore fit entirely though. If you don't believe Towns and Wiseman can co-exist, for example, then Wiseman won't be the BPA because he won't be able to reach his potential and/or be utilised to the best of his ability here.

Ball is a pretty terrible fit though too, so you either pick for fit (Edwards) or you go with BPA (Wiseman).

It's crazy how many people have been fooled by Ball's game and think it will translate to the NBA game.

[gandlogo]

I don't understand how everyone repeats the motto that you draft the best player available and then in our situation says that a player doesn't fit.

Isn't the point to not care about fit and get the best player? How many times have teams drafted for fit and missed out on great players? Way more than drafting for fit has worked imo.

I view fit as two different parts. System fit and position fit. Does the player have the skills and traits for the offense and defense a team runs? And is there a position of need? Of the two, system fit would be more important to me - especially in what many consider a flat draft. The Wolves have spent the last 16 (?) months trying to establish their identity. Taking someone who doesn't fit into that could easily lead to a player struggling and quickly losing value - all while not helping the team achieve success. And none of these players seem to be so impressive that you change the entire system to fit them (but a lot of them look like they could have nice NBA careers). I'm personally glad the Wolves are talking win now mode. If they are believers in Towns and Russell, why not add players that best help them win now? Just one guy's view.

[urinesane]

I don't understand how everyone repeats the motto that you draft the best player available and then in our situation says that a player doesn't fit.

Isn't the point to not care about fit and get the best player? How many times have teams drafted for fit and missed out on great players? Way more than drafting for fit has worked imo.

I view fit as two different parts. System fit and position fit. Does the player have the skills and traits for the offense and defense a team runs? And is there a position of need? Of the two, system fit would be more important to me - especially in what many consider a flat draft. The Wolves have spent the last 16 (?) months trying to establish their identity. Taking someone who doesn't fit into that could easily lead to a player struggling and quickly losing value - all while not helping the team achieve success. And none of these players seem to be so impressive that you change the entire system to fit them (but a lot of them look like they could have nice NBA careers). I'm personally glad the Wolves are talking win now mode. If they are believers in Towns and Russell, why not add players that best help them win now? Just one guy's view.

I agree, get players that help them win now. The only player out of Ball/Edwards/Wiseman that does that is Wiseman. Ball and Edwards WILL NOT help them win right away, guaranteed.

I don't understand how a freaky athletic 7 footer with a good shooting motion and ability to rim protect doesn't fit. What team doesn't want that in a big?

People keep brining up Duncan/Robinson, but Wiseman is way more capable of stretching the floor than either of those guys, so I don't think it's a good comparison. I think Bosh/KG are better comparisons, not that Wiseman will be as good as either guarding man to man, but he's also 2" taller than both and has a longer wingspan than both (7'6").

His shooting form is MUCH better than LaMelo and he won't be pressured to shoot nearly as many 3's at his position (though I think he can develop it enough to be someone you can't leave open from outside).

He's also coming into the league at the same weight as Bosh and heavier than KG. He's going to get bigger/stronger as he continues in the NBA and will not be someone that other bigs can easily push around. I think physically in his prime he will be like Dwight Howard was in Orlando.

I want the Wolves to win now which means it's either Wiseman at #1 or trade out and get an established player to pair with DLo & KAT.

Ball and Edwards on this roster makes them a lottery team guaranteed next season.

[shangrila]

Ya generally you draft BPA and trade for fit/need... easy to get burned when you try to accomplish both in one swing in a draft lacking 1-2 elite players that have separated from the pack.

It's foolish to ignore fit entirely though. If you don't believe Towns and Wiseman can co-exist, for example, then Wiseman won't be the BPA because he won't be able to reach his potential and/or be utilised to the best of his ability here.

Ball is a pretty terrible fit though too, so you either pick for fit (Edwards) or you go with BPA (Wiseman).

It's crazy how many people have been fooled by Ball's game and think it will translate to the NBA game.

It's easier to see Ball's fit here than Wiseman's. Ball is tall and quick enough to cover SGs defensively while perimeter playmaking is at a premium in the current league. It's not seamless but it is simpler.

[urinesane]

It's foolish to ignore fit entirely though. If you don't believe Towns and Wiseman can co-exist, for example, then Wiseman won't be the BPA because he won't be able to reach his potential and/or be utilised to the best of his ability here.

Ball is a pretty terrible fit though too, so you either pick for fit (Edwards) or you go with BPA (Wiseman).

It's crazy how many people have been fooled by Ball's game and think it will translate to the NBA game.

It's easier to see Ball's fit here than Wiseman's. Ball is tall and quick enough to cover SGs defensively while perimeter playmaking is at a premium in the current league. It's not seamless but it is simpler.

Measurements don't matter as much as execution. He constantly gets destroyed by screens and is a terrible on ball defender. You can't just assume that will be remedied at the highest level in basketball against a different universe of players (the NBL is trash, let's just be honest).

Wiseman is ELITE defensively compared to Ball.

You can't point to one of Ball's MASSIVE weaknesses as a reason he fits well with the team, that's just silly. Also factor in that in order for Ball to do his thing, it will take the ball out of DLo's hands and will take away shots from KAT/DLo (which I would much rather have them taking those shots than Ball).

Wiseman won't need the ball in his hands to contribute and offer something the Wolves haven't had basically since KG (a big that is a legitimate rim protector). He'll feast on the offensive boards, limit 2nd chances on the defensive end, and can get very good numbers without taking any shots away from KAT/DLo. He will also be an easy dump off/lob option for DLo and the other guards driving to the basket.

If you just have KAT play PF and Wiseman Center he's easily the most likely player to succeed on this roster. Edwards/Ball both will have to take opportunities away from KAT/DLo to offer anything on offense (Ball will be dared to shoot constantly and will make life way more difficult for KAT/DLo outside of some flashy passes for easy buckets here and there).

Edwards/Ball have HUGE chucker potential on offense and Wiseman basically is an opportunity to be a zero sum game type player that only adds to the positives and actually helps shore up some of their glaring weaknesses. Will he be able to guard the perimeter very well? Probably not, but that's not a good enough reason to ignore all of the positives he brings to the table and what he can add to the team on day 1.

The Warriors like him for a reason, let's not over think this and take the guy they want (which we didn't do last time and it's made us a laughing stock to this day).

I just don't want the Wolves to repeat the same mistakes they've made in the past. Choosing Ball or Edwards would be exactly that and we will get laughed at for many years for passing on Wiseman.

[Baseline81]

Measurements don't matter as much as execution. He constantly gets destroyed by screens and is a terrible on ball defender. You can't just assume that will be remedied at the highest level in basketball against a different universe of players (the NBL is trash, let's just be honest).

Wiseman is ELITE defensively compared to Ball.

You can't point to one of Ball's MASSIVE weaknesses as a reason he fits well with the team, that's just silly. Also factor in that in order for Ball to do his thing, it will take the ball out of DLo's hands and will take away shots from KAT/DLo (which I would much rather have them taking those shots than Ball).

Wiseman won't need the ball in his hands to contribute and offer something the Wolves haven't had basically since KG (a big that is a legitimate rim protector). He'll feast on the offensive boards, limit 2nd chances on the defensive end, and can get very good numbers without taking any shots away from KAT/DLo. He will also be an easy dump off/lob option for DLo and the other guards driving to the basket.

If you just have KAT play PF and Wiseman Center he's easily the most likely player to succeed on this roster. Edwards/Ball both will have to take opportunities away from KAT/DLo to offer anything on offense (Ball will be dared to shoot constantly and will make life way more difficult for KAT/DLo outside of some flashy passes for easy buckets here and there).

Edwards/Ball have HUGE chucker potential on offense and Wiseman basically is an opportunity to be a zero sum game type player that only adds to the positives and actually helps shore up some of their glaring weaknesses. Will he be able to guard the perimeter very well? Probably not, but that's not a good enough reason to ignore all of the positives he brings to the table and what he can add to the team on day 1.

The Warriors like him for a reason, let's not over think this and take the guy they want (which we didn't do last time and it's made us a laughing stock to this day).

I just don't want the Wolves to repeat the same mistakes they've made in the past. Choosing Ball or Edwards would be exactly that and we will get laughed at for many years for passing on Wiseman.

With the addition of Wiseman, not once did you mention how Towns, the team's best player, would operate defensively.

Spending the first overall pick on a backup center, who would be earning approximately $10M his rookie season, doesn't seem like the best use of an asset, especially if Towns stays with the Wolves long term.

[urinesane]

Measurements don't matter as much as execution. He constantly gets destroyed by screens and is a terrible on ball defender. You can't just assume that will be remedied at the highest level in basketball against a different universe of players (the NBL is trash, let's just be honest).

Wiseman is ELITE defensively compared to Ball.

You can't point to one of Ball's MASSIVE weaknesses as a reason he fits well with the team, that's just silly. Also factor in that in order for Ball to do his thing, it will take the ball out of DLo's hands and will take away shots from KAT/DLo (which I would much rather have them taking those shots than Ball).

Wiseman won't need the ball in his hands to contribute and offer something the Wolves haven't had basically since KG (a big that is a legitimate rim protector). He'll feast on the offensive boards, limit 2nd chances on the defensive end, and can get very good numbers without taking any shots away from KAT/DLo. He will also be an easy dump off/lob option for DLo and the other guards driving to the basket.

If you just have KAT play PF and Wiseman Center he's easily the most likely player to succeed on this roster. Edwards/Ball both will have to take opportunities away from KAT/DLo to offer anything on offense (Ball will be dared to shoot constantly and will make life way more difficult for KAT/DLo outside of some flashy passes for easy buckets here and there).

Edwards/Ball have HUGE chucker potential on offense and Wiseman basically is an opportunity to be a zero sum game type player that only adds to the positives and actually helps shore up some of their glaring weaknesses. Will he be able to guard the perimeter very well? Probably not, but that's not a good enough reason to ignore all of the positives he brings to the table and what he can add to the team on day 1.

The Warriors like him for a reason, let's not over think this and take the guy they want (which we didn't do last time and it's made us a laughing stock to this day).

I just don't want the Wolves to repeat the same mistakes they've made in the past. Choosing Ball or Edwards would be exactly that and we will get laughed at for many years for passing on Wiseman.

With the addition of Wiseman, not once did you mention how Towns, the team's best player, would operate defensively.

Spending the first overall pick on a backup center, who would be earning approximately $10M his rookie season, doesn't seem like the best use of an asset, especially if Towns stays with the Wolves long term.

Town's defense isn't great, so he can guard whichever big is the weakest scoring threat on the other team. Does he "operate defensively" currently? Not sure how Wiseman would make him any worse on that end, but would open up many opportunities on offense while being able to help cover his a$$ like WCS did at Kentucky with his rim protection and help defense.

There's no reason to have Wiseman off the bench. Just "move" KAT to PF, is KAT a worse defender than Love was at that spot? Wiseman would be a MASSIVE upgrade on defense at center and wouldn't take away anything from our best players on offense.

I don't see what the issue is. How many bigs in the league are really capable of destroying us from the perimeter that can't also currently do that to us? I just don't see how Wiseman makes our defense worse overall, and it's not like our perimeter defense is anything to write home about currently (and certainly Ball/Edwards wouldn't make it any better).

[minimus]

Measurements don't matter as much as execution. He constantly gets destroyed by screens and is a terrible on ball defender. You can't just assume that will be remedied at the highest level in basketball against a different universe of players (the NBL is trash, let's just be honest).

Wiseman is ELITE defensively compared to Ball.

You can't point to one of Ball's MASSIVE weaknesses as a reason he fits well with the team, that's just silly. Also factor in that in order for Ball to do his thing, it will take the ball out of DLo's hands and will take away shots from KAT/DLo (which I would much rather have them taking those shots than Ball).

Wiseman won't need the ball in his hands to contribute and offer something the Wolves haven't had basically since KG (a big that is a legitimate rim protector). He'll feast on the offensive boards, limit 2nd chances on the defensive end, and can get very good numbers without taking any shots away from KAT/DLo. He will also be an easy dump off/lob option for DLo and the other guards driving to the basket.

If you just have KAT play PF and Wiseman Center he's easily the most likely player to succeed on this roster. Edwards/Ball both will have to take opportunities away from KAT/DLo to offer anything on offense (Ball will be dared to shoot constantly and will make life way more difficult for KAT/DLo outside of some flashy passes for easy buckets here and there).

Edwards/Ball have HUGE chucker potential on offense and Wiseman basically is an opportunity to be a zero sum game type player that only adds to the positives and actually helps shore up some of their glaring weaknesses. Will he be able to guard the perimeter very well? Probably not, but that's not a good enough reason to ignore all of the positives he brings to the table and what he can add to the team on day 1.

The Warriors like him for a reason, let's not over think this and take the guy they want (which we didn't do last time and it's made us a laughing stock to this day).

I just don't want the Wolves to repeat the same mistakes they've made in the past. Choosing Ball or Edwards would be exactly that and we will get laughed at for many years for passing on Wiseman.

With the addition of Wiseman, not once did you mention how Towns, the team's best player, would operate defensively.

Spending the first overall pick on a backup center, who would be earning approximately $10M his rookie season, doesn't seem like the best use of an asset, especially if Towns stays with the Wolves long term.

Town's defense isn't great, so he can guard whichever big is the weakest scoring threat on the other team. Does he "operate defensively" currently? Not sure how Wiseman would make him any worse on that end, but would open up many opportunities on offense while being able to help cover his a$$ like WCS did at Kentucky with his rim protection and help defense.

There's no reason to have Wiseman off the bench. Just "move" KAT to PF, is KAT a worse defender than Love was at that spot? Wiseman would be a MASSIVE upgrade on defense at center and wouldn't take away anything from our best players on offense.

I don't see what the issue is. How many bigs in the league are really capable of destroying us from the perimeter that can't also currently do that to us? I just don't see how Wiseman makes our defense worse overall, and it's not like our perimeter defense is anything to write home about currently (and certainly Ball/Edwards wouldn't make it any better).

Is your opinion on Wiseman elite defense is based on what? His one minute long defensive highlights?

I see his elite length, but what separate him from let say Whiteside? I also saw him being slow footed in defense and being out of position defensively, he might develop into an excellent defender, but he needs time.

[jpatrick]

Okay guys. Wiseman played one game against high major competition this year. One. The last time he played against good competition was AAU, specifically the EYBL, which upper tier of AAU competition. And despite significant size advantages over his opponents, he was not good.

I hear people talk about him being a shooter based on videos. Go back and watch Cauley-Stein’s videos, he was knocking down 3s with good form. Guess what, not a shooter, at all.

In the EYBL, Wiseman had a TS% of 52%, significantly lower than most bigs in the league. This included shooting 55% from the line and 14% from the HIGH SCHOOL three point line.

If you listen to commentators that watched him, he was also a poor defender. He cannot defend in space. Neither can Towns. Thus I have no idea how moving KAT to the perimeter is going to help. While we’ll have more length by the rim, we’ll be giving up a ton of open jumpers. And the three point line is where the game is won and lost on that end nowadays.

Will I be upset if we take Wiseman? No. None of the prospects up top are great IMO but these claims that Wiseman is elite in all these area is just wrong. Much like Edwards, he’s elite in one area, size/body/athleticism for his position.

Here’s an article that discusses Wiseman’s AAU showing, including stats comparing him to other bigs.

https://fansided.com/2019/10/08/james-wiseman-flawed-weaknesses/

[urinesane]

With the addition of Wiseman, not once did you mention how Towns, the team's best player, would operate defensively.

Spending the first overall pick on a backup center, who would be earning approximately $10M his rookie season, doesn't seem like the best use of an asset, especially if Towns stays with the Wolves long term.

Town's defense isn't great, so he can guard whichever big is the weakest scoring threat on the other team. Does he "operate defensively" currently? Not sure how Wiseman would make him any worse on that end, but would open up many opportunities on offense while being able to help cover his a$$ like WCS did at Kentucky with his rim protection and help defense.

There's no reason to have Wiseman off the bench. Just "move" KAT to PF, is KAT a worse defender than Love was at that spot? Wiseman would be a MASSIVE upgrade on defense at center and wouldn't take away anything from our best players on offense.

I don't see what the issue is. How many bigs in the league are really capable of destroying us from the perimeter that can't also currently do that to us? I just don't see how Wiseman makes our defense worse overall, and it's not like our perimeter defense is anything to write home about currently (and certainly Ball/Edwards wouldn't make it any better).

Is your opinion on Wiseman elite defense is based on what? His one minute long defensive highlights?

I see his elite length, but what separate him from let say Whiteside? I also saw him being slow footed in defense and being out of position defensively, he might develop into an excellent defender, but he needs time.

His defense is elite COMPARED TO BALL. Please go re-read my post.

His ability to protect the rim is legit right now (just needs to learn discipline on pump fakes) and will benefit the Wolves immediately. He has a lot of work to do on improving his footwork and angles, but I don't see anything that limits the possibility of him improving in those areas and it's not one of those things that can't be improved with coaching and experience.

[urinesane]

Okay guys. Wiseman played one game against high major competition this year. One. The last time he played against good competition was AAU, specifically the EYBL, which upper tier of AAU competition. And despite significant size advantages over his opponents, he was not good.

I hear people talk about him being a shooter based on videos. Go back and watch Cauley-Stein’s videos, he was knocking down 3s with good form. Guess what, not a shooter, at all.

In the EYBL, Wiseman had a TS% of 52%, significantly lower than most bigs in the league. This included shooting 55% from the line and 14% from the HIGH SCHOOL three point line.

If you listen to commentators that watched him, he was also a poor defender. He cannot defend in space. Neither can Towns. Thus I have no idea how moving KAT to the perimeter is going to help. While we’ll have more length by the rim, we’ll be giving up a ton of open jumpers. And the three point line is where the game is won and lost on that end nowadays.

Will I be upset if we take Wiseman? No. None of the prospects up top are great IMO but these claims that Wiseman is elite in all these area is just wrong. Much like Edwards, he’s elite in one area, size/body/athleticism for his position.

Here’s an article that discusses Wiseman’s AAU showing, including stats comparing him to other bigs.

https://fansided.com/2019/10/08/james-wiseman-flawed-weaknesses/

He would have absolutely dominated in the NBL had he gone that route, if we are comparing "high major competition". Also, Edwards did not fair well against high level competition in the NCAA.

Also does this look like a good shot to you?

Watch on YouTube

I see a hitch when the ball gets to his face, which messes up the flow of the shot and basically makes it so that he is launching it from his face, rather than having a smooth motion throughout.

Watch on YouTube

At 1:06 in this video I see a smooth shot without the hitch mentioned in the WCS video.

Apples and Oranges imo. Also, it's not like he has to be an awesome 3pt shooter, he just needs to be a threat which I think is possible with time and his shooting form.

[shangrila]

Measurements don't matter as much as execution. He constantly gets destroyed by screens and is a terrible on ball defender. You can't just assume that will be remedied at the highest level in basketball against a different universe of players (the NBL is trash, let's just be honest).

I'm not assuming it will be remedied. I don't think it will. He's going to cap out as an average defender at best most likely.

But if you want to talk competition level, you have to admit college isn't a pro league either. Nor did Wiseman, if we're doing a direct comparison, face much competition even in college.

Wiseman is ELITE defensively compared to Ball.

Sure. If Ball is your measuring stick more than half the players in this class are "elite" defensively.

You can't point to one of Ball's MASSIVE weaknesses as a reason he fits well with the team, that's just silly. Also factor in that in order for Ball to do his thing, it will take the ball out of DLo's hands and will take away shots from KAT/DLo (which I would much rather have them taking those shots than Ball).

Defensively he doesn't force anyone into weird positions they're unfamiliar with. That was my point. Wiseman will force either himself or Towns out on the perimeter and I don't buy that either can handle that.

Wiseman won't need the ball in his hands to contribute and offer something the Wolves haven't had basically since KG (a big that is a legitimate rim protector). He'll feast on the offensive boards, limit 2nd chances on the defensive end, and can get very good numbers without taking any shots away from KAT/DLo. He will also be an easy dump off/lob option for DLo and the other guards driving to the basket.

It's very easy to turn all of these around. He'll feast on the offensive boards? Then he's likely to clog the paint and kill Towns' post game. He'll limit 2nd chance points? Then we'll be giving up 3s all game. A lot of guys can put up numbers playing off KAT/DLo, especially if you want to simplify their role to this extreme.

Honestly, given what you've described, why couldn't we just sign Nerlens Noel to a min contract? We'd get 75% of the production for a 10th of the cost.

If you just have KAT play PF and Wiseman Center he's easily the most likely player to succeed on this roster. Edwards/Ball both will have to take opportunities away from KAT/DLo to offer anything on offense (Ball will be dared to shoot constantly and will make life way more difficult for KAT/DLo outside of some flashy passes for easy buckets here and there).

His success will force changes in KAT's game, specifically when it comes to the post which is where KAT generates a lot of his assists. It's really not the simple fit you're making it out to be.

This team isn't set when it comes to generating offence either. I get the arguments against Ball and Edwards but they do have skills that could be valuable, and in fact were proven valuable in the most recent playoffs. If we have to rely solely on Towns and Russell to generate offence for the entire team we're going to be in trouble. That's part of the reason I was a little hesitant on giving free reign to Beasley (before his legal troubles) and was interested in Avdija. Guys that can generate buckets off of broken play, or when the defence takes away your options, are incredibly important. That isn't something Wiseman looks capable of doing and, outside of some rare examples, bigs in general just seem to struggle with this. That isn't Wiseman's fault but it's important to be aware of.

Edwards/Ball have HUGE chucker potential on offense and Wiseman basically is an opportunity to be a zero sum game type player that only adds to the positives and actually helps shore up some of their glaring weaknesses. Will he be able to guard the perimeter very well? Probably not, but that's not a good enough reason to ignore all of the positives he brings to the table and what he can add to the team on day 1.

Yes it is. The way the league is currently requires perimeter focused defences. We're already going to struggle with that with Towns, to hitch the wagon to another one like that will only cause us further issues if not cripple us entirely.


And for the record, I don't think any of those guys are amazing fits. I'm not sure there is one for us in this draft, maybe Deni or Haliburton depending on how you see them. But I do think that Ball and Edwards fit a little bit better than Wiseman.

The Warriors like him for a reason, let's not over think this and take the guy they want (which we didn't do last time and it's made us a laughing stock to this day).

That's a stupid way to draft.

They like him because he's a natural fit. They don't have a player like Towns to cause any issues. They don't even have a similar situation here. I mean, they could justify taking someone who's a poor fit like Ball or Edwards because the guys they overlap with are old. If you took Ball, for example, in 5 years you could see him having full reign while Curry has either retired or is in a significantly smaller role. You can't say that about Towns and Wiseman.

I just don't want the Wolves to repeat the same mistakes they've made in the past. Choosing Ball or Edwards would be exactly that and we will get laughed at for many years for passing on Wiseman.

I doubt that. Personally I don't think any of these guys become someone worth being laughed at and if they do it's more likely an Oladipo situation where they've bounced around or been traded for years before they finally become something.

I'm hoping either of these Middleton or Holiday trades pan out because I have no faith in this draft class anymore.