The Troy Brown Thread

[prime1time]

I think he’s trying to say that after he catches the ball, ideally you take a hard dribble so that the power of the bounce brings the ball smoothly into the players hands and right into his upward motion for his shot. Instead of taking a hard dribble Troy takes a lighter dribble which forces him to glower his hands (I.e. bend his elbow downward at a lower angle) to pick up the ball and go into his shooting motion. All in all it sounds he’s just saying the normal critiques of an ideal shot. That you want as little movement as possible and a straightforward shot. With more the movement, you get more variance and thus lower accuracy. All I’ll say is that I really don’t believe that there is an ideal shot. And I think you can run into real problems while standardizing everyone’s shot. If their are major issues they should be changed, but usually I just judge on results.

Also another advantage of the power dribble into the shot is that it lowers release time. If you have a basketball at home you should try it. Hard dribble when the ball bounces right up into your shot pocket and let’s for a smooth release vs. soft dribble where you have to lower your hand/elbow to get the ball.

[WizarDynasty]

I think he’s trying to say that after he catches the ball, ideally you take a hard dribble so that the power of the bounce brings the ball smoothly into the players hands and right into his upward motion for his shot. Instead of taking a hard dribble Troy takes a lighter dribble which forces him to glower his hands (I.e. bend his elbow downward at a lower angle) to pick up the ball and go into his shooting motion. All in all it sounds he’s just saying the normal critiques of an ideal shot. That you want as little movement as possible and a straightforward shot. With more the movement, you get more variance and thus lower accuracy. All I’ll say is that I really don’t believe that there is an ideal shot. And I think you can run into real problems while standardizing everyone’s shot. If their are major issues they should be changed, but usually I just judge on results.

Also another advantage of the power dribble into the shot is that it lowers release time. If you have a basketball at home you should try it. Hard dribble when the ball bounces right up into your shot pocket and let’s for a smooth release vs. soft dribble where you have to lower your hand/elbow to get the ball.

Awesome, but even more...getting dribble power in your off hand to generate that extra power, even after dribbling 20 bounces. If you don't have high stamina in your off hand, your arm will be too tired to generate exceptional forces needed to bounce the ball with that amount of force.
so to put it another way, your dominant hand normally has the stamina necessary to trigger bounce power, but if your off hand doesn't. YOu may want to do it, but fatigue in your off hand after 10 power bounces prevents you.
To put it a third and simple way. If i bounce the ball so hard that it if I don't stop the ball with my hand the ball will rise all the way to my eye socket. However, I am stopping the ball from rising with my hand at the hip level. There is ton of upward force pushing my hand upward but I over power that upward force and force the ball back downward. If you apply that amount of force on each bounce, you off hand will get tired very quickly. It takes years to develop the stamina to bounce with that force, control upward movement of the ball to below the waist even though the ball would rise up all the way to your eyesocket if your hand didn't stop it.

Where does that upward force go if the ball can't go past your waist, all that force upward force transfers into your hand and your deltoids. On top of that, over powering that upward force and forcing the ball back down means you have to generate even more force than the upward force once you stop the ball at your waist ( this is wall's problem..he has a loose dribble...meaning he doesn't power bounce the ball and it only raises up to his hip...ball doesn't bounce the ball so hard that is pushing is hand up on each bounce...and that is why his dribble looks so slow...(I think someone mentioned this with Rui as well) ...they are not generating even force for the ball to push their hand upward...instead they are bouncing the ball lightly so that it only raises up to their waist....in order to have an elite handle...each bounce needs to have enough force that if not controlled with your hand...the ball would rise to eyesocket....and then you are actually preventing the ball from rising with your off hand...and you are controlling this upward force on each bounce. This is Ultra Instinct Handles....Only person who has come close to achieving it is Beal. ...over power upward force to return the ball back to the ground...for 100 bounces in a row with your off hand....takes great stamina. Most people don't have enough energy stored in their "left hand" to bounce the ball with power this many times before becoming extremely fatigued. If you don't believe me, try it yourself and see how tired your arm gets. In order to get your stamina for off hand up, you have to practice for hours a day...rest and repeat....

This is what Troy Brown is trying to achieve...he has the attitude but doesn't have a road map of how to get there. Maybe this post will help. May even help wall to. Beal displays it...but may even know how he got there. Harden definitely has achieved ultra instinct.

And how you catch the ball with a power dribble completely opens up your offensive game because not having to use to hands to control the ball gives...doesnt' commit you. Once both of those hands are on ball lifting, it automatically means your elbow is not in correct form.
The ball should be power up to your eye socket, and all your doing is allowing the ball to push your hand upward. If you allow the ball to push your hand upward, you elbow automatically transforms into a 45 degree angle. That ball should never slow down as you power bounce into a shot. If you see a player stopping the motion of the ball on a power bounce, it shows he hasn't acheived ultra instinct off hand dribble.
More importantly off hand dribble is more important because most defenders have already studied and know what your dominant hand is, most defenders have been programmmed since kids to adjust and take away a players right hand. All defenders are better at stopping right hand dribbles because they practice it more. None or nearly none practice shifting their footwark from guarding right to left. As guard, off hand dribble is bread maker. It's why harden is some dominant, his off hand has elite stamina...which is is right. He can power dribble with his right...for hours...even though he is left hand. Having that stamina along with an elite first step means you are unstoppable. Wall and Beal have elite first steps. Beal showed that he can drive left with his close to ultra instinct off hand...So for Wall, Beal, and Troy to all be dedicated to improving...it would be fun rooting for Wiz.
This is why Troy's Off hand is very amateur.
The one person who immediately jumps out that hands unbelievable stamina in his off hand which is his right...is James Harden. He can power bounce the ball, catch it at his knee, and over power the upward bounce at any moment. --oh and Lillard is pretty close to ultra instinct with his off hand too. Power dribble off hand control is nasty.
the key to power bounce is that the ball sticks to your hand because it wants to keep going up but your hand is preventing it from doing so, so the ball hovers in your hand. If anyone watches dragon ball..yeah nerd.. it like a fireball ki battle. your holding this force in your hand..absorbing the upward force and that ball hovers, and if you have enough stamina...you decide when you want to over power that force and return the ball back to the ground. Quick twitch and coordination of your off hand, it takes years to develop...or 1000's of hours, and many days going on home with warn out muscles so that you sleep and let them recover. Sensu bean (smh) but its true.
So when I see how weak Troy's Brown's off hand is, that's what I am referring too. To be blunt...wall hasn't achieved this yet either. I think Beal is closests to achieving ultra instinct with his off hand. Harden has already achieved it with his right....which his left hand.

[doclinkin]

I think he’s trying to say that after he catches the ball, ideally you take a hard dribble so that the power of the bounce brings the ball smoothly into the players hands and right into his upward motion for his shot. Instead of taking a hard dribble Troy takes a lighter dribble which forces him to glower his hands (I.e. bend his elbow downward at a lower angle) to pick up the ball and go into his shooting motion. All in all it sounds he’s just saying the normal critiques of an ideal shot. That you want as little movement as possible and a straightforward shot. With more the movement, you get more variance and thus lower accuracy. All I’ll say is that I really don’t believe that there is an ideal shot. And I think you can run into real problems while standardizing everyone’s shot. If their are major issues they should be changed, but usually I just judge on results.

Witness Otto Porter and his knocknee YMCA dance looking overhead 3pt shot with terrible terrible 'offensive kneebend'. He made one small change to his shot and suddenly was the most efficient scorer in the NBA for a year. The change: stop looking down to see if he was behind the line. That's it. The rest remained unaltered.

Reggie Miller was one of the best shooters in history, with a flared elbow, knock knees and ten toes pointed towards the rim, pushing the shot with the thumb of his off hand and often jumping sideways shooting while still in motion.

If you can hit the shot you can hit the shot.

[WizarDynasty]

I think he’s trying to say that after he catches the ball, ideally you take a hard dribble so that the power of the bounce brings the ball smoothly into the players hands and right into his upward motion for his shot. Instead of taking a hard dribble Troy takes a lighter dribble which forces him to glower his hands (I.e. bend his elbow downward at a lower angle) to pick up the ball and go into his shooting motion. All in all it sounds he’s just saying the normal critiques of an ideal shot. That you want as little movement as possible and a straightforward shot. With more the movement, you get more variance and thus lower accuracy. All I’ll say is that I really don’t believe that there is an ideal shot. And I think you can run into real problems while standardizing everyone’s shot. If their are major issues they should be changed, but usually I just judge on results.

Witness Otto Porter and his knocknee YMCA dance looking overhead 3pt shot with terrible terrible 'offensive kneebend'. He made one small change to his shot and suddenly was the most efficient scorer in the NBA for a year. The change: stop looking down to see if he was behind the line. That's it. The rest remained unaltered.

Reggie Miller was one of the best shooters in history, with a flared elbow, knock knees and ten toes pointed towards the rim, pushing the shot with the thumb of his off hand and often jumping sideways shooting while still in motion.

If you can hit the shot you can hit the shot.

Once your brain is hardwired to move a certain way, very hard to fix it. That's why you have really bad free throw shooters. They trained their brain with bad muscle memory and now they have to re learn muscle memory. I am pretty sure Shaq wishes he could shoot like Hakeem but his body and muscle memory would not let him. he was still one of the most dominant players in nba history. But imagined if he had trained as a child dribbling with his off hand, and shooting free throws. I am pretty sure he would gotten much closer to his potential.
Same with Reggie, he had alot of akward mechanics that prevented him from reaching his full potential. He could have been even better than what he was but he did the best that he could with. Had he received elite training has a child---I.e. power dribbling with your off hand....practicing laterally agility with set foot distance...and blessed with his genetic height, coordination, stamina, ect--that can't be taught and , he would have been even better.

[Dat2U]

TBJ's fit in DC is so shooting dependent. As of now its not a clean fit so that's why there's not alot of talk of him starting alongside Wall & Beal and there is alot talk of Wizards getting another wing this offseason.

On a bad team where Troy could be the lead ball handler - he could likely post some really good stats and look like the 2nd coming of Iggy on offense but he doesn't have that opportunity here. He has to be able to play off the ball like Iggy did in the 2nd half of his career. That means he's got to make open shots which he hasn't done consistently. He also has to focus on becoming a much better team defender to add any real value as an off the ball player.

The fit is better with Beal than it is Wall. That's why the backup PG talk makes sense.

Problem is this draft is loaded with quality PGs which could push him back to the wing and keep him off the ball.

[WizarDynasty]

TBJ's fit in DC is so shooting dependent. As of now its not a clean fit so that's why there's not alot of talk of him starting alongside Wall & Beal and there is alot talk of Wizards getting another wing this offseason.

On a bad team where Troy could be the lead ball handler - he could likely post some really good stats and look like the 2nd coming of Iggy on offense but he doesn't have that opportunity here. He has to be able to play off the ball like Iggy did in the 2nd half of his career. That means he's got to make open shots which he hasn't done consistently. He also has to focus on becoming a much better team defender to add any real value as an off the ball player.

The fit is better with Beal than it is Wall. That's why the backup PG talk makes sense.

Problem is this draft is loaded with quality PGs which could push him back to the wing and keep him off the ball.

Yeah we definitely need a 9'2 standing reach, deep hip bend with quick release high percentage 3 point shooting. In my mind, Trevor Ariza with an explosive first step, that can rebound like Dennis Rodman.

[nate33]

Yeah we definitely need a 9'2 standing reach, deep hip bend with quick release high percentage 3 point shooting. In my mind, Trevor Ariza with an explosive first step, that can rebound like Dennis Rodman.

Is that all? We merely need to find the next Kevin Durant with Dennis Rodman rebounding ability. No problem.

[Ruzious]

TBJ's fit in DC is so shooting dependent. As of now its not a clean fit so that's why there's not alot of talk of him starting alongside Wall & Beal and there is alot talk of Wizards getting another wing this offseason.

On a bad team where Troy could be the lead ball handler - he could likely post some really good stats and look like the 2nd coming of Iggy on offense but he doesn't have that opportunity here. He has to be able to play off the ball like Iggy did in the 2nd half of his career. That means he's got to make open shots which he hasn't done consistently. He also has to focus on becoming a much better team defender to add any real value as an off the ball player.

The fit is better with Beal than it is Wall. That's why the backup PG talk makes sense.

Problem is this draft is loaded with quality PGs which could push him back to the wing and keep him off the ball.

Yeah we definitely need a 9'2 standing reach, deep hip bend with quick release high percentage 3 point shooting. In my mind, Trevor Ariza with an explosive first step, that can rebound like Dennis Rodman.

So not even Kawhi Leonard would be good enough, because he's got just a 8'10 standing reach? Paul George? Nah, just 8'11 standing reach. Hmm, how's Myles Turner's deep hip bend? Nah, he's just an average rebounder. I guess we could settle for Lebron in maybe 10 years.

[WizarDynasty]

Yeah we definitely need a 9'2 standing reach, deep hip bend with quick release high percentage 3 point shooting. In my mind, Trevor Ariza with an explosive first step, that can rebound like Dennis Rodman.

Is that all? We merely need to find the next Kevin Durant with Dennis Rodman rebounding ability. No problem.

LOL. I mean if you have find a guy with a 9'2 standing reach and explosive first step, he can also rebound, can bend his hips and can power dribble low to the ground fluidly (with his off hand...not dominant hand), had a good motor..and he is there at pick 9, I mean, what more can you wish for.
I guess if he serious mental problems you pass!!
Shot mechanic muscle memory does take a long time to learn... but you can't get everything...you just try to get most of the things that can't be taught.

[dckingsfan]

TBJ's fit in DC is so shooting dependent. As of now its not a clean fit so that's why there's not alot of talk of him starting alongside Wall & Beal and there is alot talk of Wizards getting another wing this offseason.

On a bad team where Troy could be the lead ball handler - he could likely post some really good stats and look like the 2nd coming of Iggy on offense but he doesn't have that opportunity here. He has to be able to play off the ball like Iggy did in the 2nd half of his career. That means he's got to make open shots which he hasn't done consistently. He also has to focus on becoming a much better team defender to add any real value as an off the ball player.

The fit is better with Beal than it is Wall. That's why the backup PG talk makes sense.

Problem is this draft is loaded with quality PGs which could push him back to the wing and keep him off the ball.

Exactly. That is why he is working so hard on his 3 point shot.

I would add - being a defender is just as important. That is why he is slimming down and working on lateral movement.

At this point, it seems TBJ understands what he needs to do and is busting his butt to get it done. Fingers and toes crossed for the guy.

[Ruzious]

TBJ's fit in DC is so shooting dependent. As of now its not a clean fit so that's why there's not alot of talk of him starting alongside Wall & Beal and there is alot talk of Wizards getting another wing this offseason.

On a bad team where Troy could be the lead ball handler - he could likely post some really good stats and look like the 2nd coming of Iggy on offense but he doesn't have that opportunity here. He has to be able to play off the ball like Iggy did in the 2nd half of his career. That means he's got to make open shots which he hasn't done consistently. He also has to focus on becoming a much better team defender to add any real value as an off the ball player.

The fit is better with Beal than it is Wall. That's why the backup PG talk makes sense.

Problem is this draft is loaded with quality PGs which could push him back to the wing and keep him off the ball.

Exactly. That is why he is working so hard on his 3 point shot.

I would add - being a defender is just as important. That is why he is slimming down and working on lateral movement.

At this point, it seems TBJ understands what he needs to do and is busting his butt to get it done. Fingers and toes crossed for the guy.

The encouraging thing to me is - TBJ is really smart as a young guy. As you said, he's very self-aware about what he should work on, and he appears to be doing it. And we'll see if he's successful. I wouldn't bet against him.

[nate33]

TBJ's fit in DC is so shooting dependent. As of now its not a clean fit so that's why there's not alot of talk of him starting alongside Wall & Beal and there is alot talk of Wizards getting another wing this offseason.

On a bad team where Troy could be the lead ball handler - he could likely post some really good stats and look like the 2nd coming of Iggy on offense but he doesn't have that opportunity here. He has to be able to play off the ball like Iggy did in the 2nd half of his career. That means he's got to make open shots which he hasn't done consistently. He also has to focus on becoming a much better team defender to add any real value as an off the ball player.

The fit is better with Beal than it is Wall. That's why the backup PG talk makes sense.

Problem is this draft is loaded with quality PGs which could push him back to the wing and keep him off the ball.

Yeah we definitely need a 9'2 standing reach, deep hip bend with quick release high percentage 3 point shooting. In my mind, Trevor Ariza with an explosive first step, that can rebound like Dennis Rodman.

So not even Kawhi Leonard would be good enough, because he's got just a 8'10 standing reach? Paul George? Nah, just 8'11 standing reach. Hmm, how's Myles Turner's deep hip bend? Nah, he's just an average rebounder. I guess we could settle for Lebron in maybe 10 years.

C'mon now, Ruzious. Kawhi Leonard is a piker. We can do better!

[Ruzious]

Yeah we definitely need a 9'2 standing reach, deep hip bend with quick release high percentage 3 point shooting. In my mind, Trevor Ariza with an explosive first step, that can rebound like Dennis Rodman.

So not even Kawhi Leonard would be good enough, because he's got just a 8'10 standing reach? Paul George? Nah, just 8'11 standing reach. Hmm, how's Myles Turner's deep hip bend? Nah, he's just an average rebounder. I guess we could settle for Lebron in maybe 10 years.

C'mon now, Ruzious. Kawhi Leonard is a piker. We can do better!

I laughed. But as WizNas said, we can wish.

[payitforward]

I tried that power dribble thing... ball hit me in the chin & knocked me out. While unconscious, I dreamed I was Kawhi Leonard. Will this help with muscle memory or just with the other kind?

That too could be good, it could supplement my afternoon mantra: I go into every room of the house & repeat the same formula of words:

Spoiler:

Did I leave my coffee in here?

[prime1time]

Watch on YouTube

;ab_channel=NextOnes
Good video

[prime1time]

Watch on YouTube

;
He just keeps on getting better and better. I'm really not sure what to make of TBJr. But I know that he's a good basketball player. I like him in the Manu role of coming off the bench and partly taking over running the offense. While part of me thinks he can do more, I’m reminded of the fact that going into the draft that he saw himself as an Iggy type player. I’m very excited to see both how he plays and the role that Coach Brooks puts him in. His consistent growth and development leaves me very impressed. At 21 years old, he’s developing into a very good player. And if this growth continues, I think we have to ask how good he can be in his prime. As a guy with high character, a player who embraces taking on a leadership role, I really hope we can resign him.

[payitforward]

Agree 100% 1 million % if possible.

[pcbothwel]

I'll say it again. SGA was also drafted in 2018, but has played double the minutes and is 12 months older.
As far as Do-It-All playmakers go with elite size and IQ, Im excited to watch Brown's career in parallel. SGA has been better, but that margin might close fast.
SGA is considered a future AS and key building block to OKC. Lets re-evaluate Brown at years end (Still be younger than SGA today) and see how people feel.

[nate33]

I'll say it again. SGA was also drafted in 2018, but has played double the minutes and is 12 months older.
As far as Do-It-All playmakers go with elite size and IQ, Im excited to watch Brown's career in parallel. SGA has been better, but that margin might close fast.
SGA is considered a future AS and key building block to OKC. Lets re-evaluate Brown at years end (Still be younger than SGA today) and see how people feel.

SGA has the innate athletic burst to blow past his primary defender and bend a defense. I like Troy Brown, but he lacks that innate athleticism. I just don't see the SGA comparison.

I think the absolute best-case upside for him is Jimmy Butler. Troy could conceivably just keep getting a bit stronger and a bit better as a shooter year over year, until eventually he just overpowers opposing shooting guards and gets to his spot with strength and skill.

Jimmy Butler is really freaking good though. Odds are, Brown won't meet that threshold. I'm trying to think of a comp as a poor man's Jimmy Butler - a big guard who can handle the ball and run an offense, but not necessarily an elite first option scorer. Peak Nic Batum? Doug Christie? Joe Ingles?

[doclinkin]

I'll say it again. SGA was also drafted in 2018, but has played double the minutes and is 12 months older.
As far as Do-It-All playmakers go with elite size and IQ, Im excited to watch Brown's career in parallel. SGA has been better, but that margin might close fast.
SGA is considered a future AS and key building block to OKC. Lets re-evaluate Brown at years end (Still be younger than SGA today) and see how people feel.

SGA has the innate athletic burst to blow past his primary defender and bend a defense. I like Troy Brown, but he lacks that innate athleticism. I just don't see the SGA comparison.

I think the absolute best-case upside for him is Jimmy Butler. Troy could conceivably just keep getting a bit stronger and a bit better as a shooter year over year, until eventually he just overpowers opposing shooting guards and gets to his spot with strength and skill.

Jimmy Butler is really freaking good though. Odds are, Brown won't meet that threshold. I'm trying to think of a comp as a poor man's Jimmy Butler - a big guard who can handle the ball and run an offense, but not necessarily an elite first option scorer. Peak Nic Batum? Doug Christie? Joe Ingles?

Andre Igguodala before GSW? Evan Turner?