Best reliable source for RAPM and PIPM, and other advanced stats, year-by-year?

[WestGOAT]

I often see these stats being thrown around in player comparisons, and sometimes you need to do some digging to find obscure sites that hosts these stats, even ending up on some google spreadsheets that who knows curates. For example I know about this one: https://basketball-analytics.gitlab.io/rapm-data/. Also it doesn't help that a good portion of basketball-reference is behind a $8/month paywall now.

Would especially like to have access to these advanced stats per season to scrutinize them properly, since I remember seeing role players like Danny Green, Robert Covington, Otto Porter, and Kyle Korver being ranked pretty high in some seasons/cases, above legit All-NBA players.

[LukaTheGOAT]

PIPM is no longer publicly available because Jacob Goldstein has been signed by Monumental Sports & Entertainment as a research analyst assisting across the Wizards, Mystics and Go-Go (he had to take town his work). However, right here is a PIPM sheet that goes from like 1974 to 2019. The most recent season is not available in this sheet. Here it is: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1qfyWxm1JL4BMD0ZY3kUvKOkOh6mjtL1i_vvV7NZqerk/edit#gid=0

WARNING: These stats are not saying guys like Robert Covington, etc. are actually better than like a Bradley Beal for example. These stats measure impact in their roles, or rather how well each player is performing the role they are given. Someone playing the glue guy role like Covington, has relative to the rest of the league, plays a much easier 3&D, then someone like Beal who has to completely carry a Washington Wizards offense. The numbers reflect that.

Furthermore, these stats measure value with regards to their teams. If Lebron's RAPM is higher in 2007 than 2012, it does not mean he was actually better in 2007. Rather it means Lebron was more indispensable to that 2007 Cavs team then the 2012 Heat. Always keep in mind how a player played each season and compare his teammates to understand better why certain numbers might be indicating such things.

Finally, finding resources is really just saving any documents you come across as you interact with others regarding basketball, as well as find on the internet. Have a nice day!

[WestGOAT]

PIPM is no longer publicly available because Jacob Goldstein has been signed by Monumental Sports & Entertainment as a research analyst assisting across the Wizards, Mystics and Go-Go (he had to take town his work). However, right here is a PIPM sheet that goes from like 1974 to 2019. The most recent season is not available in this sheet. Here it is: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1qfyWxm1JL4BMD0ZY3kUvKOkOh6mjtL1i_vvV7NZqerk/edit#gid=0

WARNING: These stats are not saying guys like Robert Covington, etc. are actually better than like a Bradley Beal for example. These stats measure impact in their roles, or rather how well each player is performing the role they are given. Someone playing the glue guy role like Covington, has relative to the rest of the league, plays a much easier 3&D, then someone like Beal who has to completely carry a Washington Wizards offense. The numbers reflect that.

Furthermore, these stats measure value with regards to their teams. If Lebron's RAPM is higher in 2007 than 2012, it does not mean he was actually better in 2007. Rather it means Lebron was more indispensable to that 2007 Cavs team then the 2012 Heat. Always keep in mind how a player played each season and compare his teammates to understand better why certain numbers might be indicating such things.

Finally, finding resources is really just saving any documents you come across as you interact with others regarding basketball, as well as find on the internet. Have a nice day!

But that's the thing, with some players it's clear that they have a facilitating role, rather than being THE driving force of their team.

Sometimes it's a bit fuzzier, for example would you say it's fair to compare Stockton's PIPM in the 2000-2001 season, 2nd(!) in the league to Iverson's in the same season, 21st in the league, despite Iverson carrying a much heavier load than Stockton. Stockton also only played 2,581.3 minutes compared to Iverson's 3,997.7 minutes. Is this a fair comparison?

[LukaTheGOAT]

PIPM is no longer publicly available because Jacob Goldstein has been signed by Monumental Sports & Entertainment as a research analyst assisting across the Wizards, Mystics and Go-Go (he had to take town his work). However, right here is a PIPM sheet that goes from like 1974 to 2019. The most recent season is not available in this sheet. Here it is: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1qfyWxm1JL4BMD0ZY3kUvKOkOh6mjtL1i_vvV7NZqerk/edit#gid=0

WARNING: These stats are not saying guys like Robert Covington, etc. are actually better than like a Bradley Beal for example. These stats measure impact in their roles, or rather how well each player is performing the role they are given. Someone playing the glue guy role like Covington, has relative to the rest of the league, plays a much easier 3&D, then someone like Beal who has to completely carry a Washington Wizards offense. The numbers reflect that.

Furthermore, these stats measure value with regards to their teams. If Lebron's RAPM is higher in 2007 than 2012, it does not mean he was actually better in 2007. Rather it means Lebron was more indispensable to that 2007 Cavs team then the 2012 Heat. Always keep in mind how a player played each season and compare his teammates to understand better why certain numbers might be indicating such things.

Finally, finding resources is really just saving any documents you come across as you interact with others regarding basketball, as well as find on the internet. Have a nice day!

But that's the thing, with some players it's clear that they have a facilitating role, rather than being THE driving force of their team.

Sometimes it's a bit fuzzier, for example would you say it's fair to compare Stockton's PIPM in the 2000-2001 season, 2nd(!) in the league to Iverson's in the same season, 21st in the league, despite Iverson carrying a much heavier load than Stockton. Stockton also only played 2,581.3 minutes compared to Iverson's 3,997.7 minutes. Is this a fair comparison?

I know what you mean, and this is why 2 people who are very big believers in analytics and stats can at times come to 2 TOTALLY different conclusions. To me, it is clear that Stockton being very efficient, low turnover, and being a better defender are leading him to having a better PIPM. However, Stockton's role was much easier. He was not superstar whatsoever, and no one would ever confuse him for competing for a MVP like AI. Stockton was simply a stead point guard, that played his role well and got the ball to the scorers on his team well. But it is clear that Stockton had a much smaller role on offense and this can be seen by looking at his usage compared to AI or even better taking a look at their offensive loads that show they are islands apart in what they were asked to do.

Allen Iverson, in 2001, was the only offense for Philly and had to create pretty much everything for Philly. Philly's offense wasn't great, but Allen Iverson had to do what he did to get Philly to the point they were at. We know if we asked 2001 Stockton to do the same thing that AI did, he would not be able to come close too. Sure maybe you could argue AI couldn't do what Stockton did, but AI overall had the much more difficult role and therefore we can comfortably say he was better than Stockton. Furthermore, PIPM measure impact on a per basis, and as you mentioned, AI played many more minutes, therefore keeping per minute impact is MUCH harder as stamina needs to be accounted for.

For the example you have given, that is how I would interpret Stockton doing better than AI in PIPM. However, many of the conversations on this forum often devolve in how we should interpret the numbers, which can really make debates interesting or tiresome depending on your preferences.

Like who is the better defender: Dikembe Mutombo or Tim Duncan?

If you look at some of the APM and RAPM figures out there, they might lead you to conclude that Mutombo was better than Duncan. And that is a fair conclusion, however I think many more would argue Duncan is better. So looking at both of their team contexts, and looking at the percentage of time each player plays with other guys on their teams, you have to try to understand why these APM or RAPM numbers might underrate Duncan or overrate Mutombo.

More than anything, these impact metrics can be used as a signal of impact, instead of something that indisputably proves player A>player B. Sorry for the long response, but these are just some things to think about when you are going through these numbers.

If you want to learn more about interpreting these impact metrics, the NBA TOP 100 all-time project is stack with numbers and people using metrics to support their beliefs (with good debates).

[LA Bird]

This is the most comprehensive set of single year RAPM J.E. posted online before he got hired by NBA teams and disappeared.

2001-15 NPI RAPM: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/11181n4avq5wefk/AAAZ4muMkVh3aNDYIzq_NNHEa
2001-15 PI RAPM: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/teutg7zvxudqnlw/AAAUkNkDUG0KWeewPZbnwS2ja
You can find them and other RAPM discussion on here: http://apbr.org/metrics/viewtopic.php?t=8964

J.E. had an earlier set of RAPM that are more commonly referenced on RealGM (https://sites.google.com/site/rapmstats/)
However, this set only goes from 2003 to 2011 for full season RAPM. Both the 2002 and 2013 RAPM are incomplete.

[andyhop]

https://www.bball-index.com/2019-20-impact-metrics/ has 19-20 PIPM amongst other stuff

[colts18]

PIPM is no longer publicly available because Jacob Goldstein has been signed by Monumental Sports & Entertainment as a research analyst assisting across the Wizards, Mystics and Go-Go (he had to take town his work). However, right here is a PIPM sheet that goes from like 1974 to 2019. The most recent season is not available in this sheet. Here it is: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1qfyWxm1JL4BMD0ZY3kUvKOkOh6mjtL1i_vvV7NZqerk/edit#gid=0

WARNING: These stats are not saying guys like Robert Covington, etc. are actually better than like a Bradley Beal for example. These stats measure impact in their roles, or rather how well each player is performing the role they are given. Someone playing the glue guy role like Covington, has relative to the rest of the league, plays a much easier 3&D, then someone like Beal who has to completely carry a Washington Wizards offense. The numbers reflect that.

Furthermore, these stats measure value with regards to their teams. If Lebron's RAPM is higher in 2007 than 2012, it does not mean he was actually better in 2007. Rather it means Lebron was more indispensable to that 2007 Cavs team then the 2012 Heat. Always keep in mind how a player played each season and compare his teammates to understand better why certain numbers might be indicating such things.

Finally, finding resources is really just saving any documents you come across as you interact with others regarding basketball, as well as find on the internet. Have a nice day!

But that's the thing, with some players it's clear that they have a facilitating role, rather than being THE driving force of their team.

Sometimes it's a bit fuzzier, for example would you say it's fair to compare Stockton's PIPM in the 2000-2001 season, 2nd(!) in the league to Iverson's in the same season, 21st in the league, despite Iverson carrying a much heavier load than Stockton. Stockton also only played 2,581.3 minutes compared to Iverson's 3,997.7 minutes. Is this a fair comparison?

I don't think it's awful that Stockton is rated ahead of Iverson. In fact, I believe there is a good argument to be made that Stockton was better than AI, at least on a per-possession basis.

Let's start off with team results:
Jazz: 53-29, 5.00 SRS (3rd)
76ers: 56-26, 3.63 SRS (7th)

AI's main argument stems from the 76ers playoff success. In reality, that was a byproduct of playing in a historically bad eastern conference.The East was so bad that its head to head record vs the West (38.3 win%) is the 2nd worst since the NBA merger, only behind 2004. It comes as no surprise that the 76ers record was padded vs the East, 40-14 (.741), in comparison to the West, 16-12 (.571). The Jazz were simply a better team that had to play in a tough conference.

It's also historical revisionism to say that AI's teammates were awful. He had the 6th Man of the year, Coach of the year, and Defensive Player of the Year. The 76ers went 6-5 in the 11 games AI missed. AI was carrying them offensively, but the team was winning on the backs of their 5th ranked defense

AI's best argument comes from his team making the finals. The only reason they made it was the atrocious Eastern Conference competition they faced.

Playoff opponents:
76ers:
Indiana: 41-41, -0.77 SRS
Toronto: 47-35, 1.69 SRS
Milwaukee: 52-30, 3.14 SRS


Jazz:
Dallas: 53-29, 4.61 SRS

If Utah played the 76ers opponents, they would have the made the finals too. If the 76ers were in the West, they would have lost in the 1st round.

On Court Play

We established that the jazz were on the same level if not better than the 76ers. How did those teams do with their star on the court?

Stockton: +12.2, +18.5 On/Off
Iverson: +5.7, +4.1 On/Off

With Stockton on the court, The Jazz outscored opponents by over twice the amount of Iverson. The Jazz played like a significantly better team with Stockton. When you adjust for the tougher competition, the gap widens.


Offense

We already know that Stockton was on another level defensively compared to AI. Stockton was an All-NBA level defender while AI was a liability. AI's best argument comes from Offense. I'm not convinced that AI was better offensively.

Jazz: 107.6 O rating (3rd)
76ers: 103.6 O rating (13th)

On court:
Stockton: 112.8 O rating, +14.3 On/Off
Iverson: 104.1 O rating, +3.9 On/Off

It's not outrageous to say that Stockton was better offensive player than Iverson. Stockton dominates AI at his best traits (shooting and passing). Stockton's 61 TS%,+9.2% rTS (Best in the NBA) is noticeably higher than AI's 51.8 TS%, +0.0% rTS. If you look at B-R's Points added because of True Shooting, Stockton is at 114 points above average compared to Iverson's 1 point. That's 113 Points (1.4 PPG) alone that Stockton is adding over AI based on efficiency.

Iverson made up for that with the playmaking created by all of the attention he received. Unfortunately for AI, playmaking is Stockton's best trait. Stockton had a 10.7 Assists per 36 average (best in the NBA), while AI only had a 3.9 Assists per 36 average. Their turnover numbers were comparable too. There is nothing in the stats that showed AI as a better offensive player.

Stockton's team had a legendary 7 year stretch from 95-01 as an elite offensive club.

Rank in O Rating:
95: 4th
96: 2nd
97: 2nd
98: 1st
99: 3rd
00: 6th
01: 3rd

5 Top 3 finishes in 7 years. Stockton, alongside Malone, being the engine of that offense.


How is AI Better?

Based on the above, Stockton was better on both Offense and Defense than AI. His team played better too. So what exactly is AI's argument over Stockton? The only argument he has is minutes played. AI played 42 Minutes Per Game compared to Stockton's 29. On a per-possession basis, Stockton is better than AI. That gap is reduced only when we account for the massive disparity in playing time. Either way it makes sense that this stat which is a per possession stat would rank Stockton well above AI.

[ShotCreator]

PIPM is no longer publicly available because Jacob Goldstein has been signed by Monumental Sports & Entertainment as a research analyst assisting across the Wizards, Mystics and Go-Go (he had to take town his work). However, right here is a PIPM sheet that goes from like 1974 to 2019. The most recent season is not available in this sheet. Here it is: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1qfyWxm1JL4BMD0ZY3kUvKOkOh6mjtL1i_vvV7NZqerk/edit#gid=0

WARNING: These stats are not saying guys like Robert Covington, etc. are actually better than like a Bradley Beal for example. These stats measure impact in their roles, or rather how well each player is performing the role they are given. Someone playing the glue guy role like Covington, has relative to the rest of the league, plays a much easier 3&D, then someone like Beal who has to completely carry a Washington Wizards offense. The numbers reflect that.

Well I’ll say it.

Robert Covington is a better basketball player than Bradley Beal.

Beal “carrying” an offense to a lottery record matters as much as he dragged that horrid defense down. Beal helps literally no team more than Covington. Obviously not even on a bad team judging by this year so the carrying argument is dead entirely.

[LukaTheGOAT]

PIPM is no longer publicly available because Jacob Goldstein has been signed by Monumental Sports & Entertainment as a research analyst assisting across the Wizards, Mystics and Go-Go (he had to take town his work). However, right here is a PIPM sheet that goes from like 1974 to 2019. The most recent season is not available in this sheet. Here it is: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1qfyWxm1JL4BMD0ZY3kUvKOkOh6mjtL1i_vvV7NZqerk/edit#gid=0

WARNING: These stats are not saying guys like Robert Covington, etc. are actually better than like a Bradley Beal for example. These stats measure impact in their roles, or rather how well each player is performing the role they are given. Someone playing the glue guy role like Covington, has relative to the rest of the league, plays a much easier 3&D, then someone like Beal who has to completely carry a Washington Wizards offense. The numbers reflect that.

Well I’ll say it.

Robert Covington is a better basketball player than Bradley Beal.

Beal “carrying” an offense to a lottery record matters as much as he dragged that horrid defense down. Beal helps literally no team more than Covington. Obviously not even on a bad team judging by this year so the carrying argument is dead entirely.

Maybe. If Covington can defend like he did this past year in the playoffs, Covington is maybe the best defender in the league (was according to PIPM). I will say I think Beal has been much better on defense in years past when he didn't have near the same offensive load, and I believe he could still provide offensive value on a multitude of teams. I might agree with you honestly.

[WestGOAT]

If you don't mind me asking, could I take a look at 5-year RAPM you are referring to that has him behind Nash, Wade, and Ginobili?

For '97-'00 I used this source.

For '01-'19 I used the data/spreadsheets produced by Jeremias Engelmann:
'01-'13
'15 (PI)
'16 (PI)
'17 (PI)
'18 (rs only, NPI)
'19 (rs only, NPI)

I can't seem to find the sheet I used for '14, though I have a note that J.E. was the source for that one as well; I have the figures for the year recorded in my own spreadsheet for notable players (+7.26 for Chris Paul, +4.59 for Durant, +4.49 for Harden, +3.84 for Curry, +3.50 for Ginobili).

I use PI where available, as I feel it's more reliable [in most instances] than NPI.

Just adding this to the list of resources in this topic

[bwgood77]

I often see these stats being thrown around in player comparisons, and sometimes you need to do some digging to find obscure sites that hosts these stats, even ending up on some google spreadsheets that who knows curates. For example I know about this one: https://basketball-analytics.gitlab.io/rapm-data/. Also it doesn't help that a good portion of basketball-reference is behind a $8/month paywall now.

Would especially like to have access to these advanced stats per season to scrutinize them properly, since I remember seeing role players like Danny Green, Robert Covington, Otto Porter, and Kyle Korver being ranked pretty high in some seasons/cases, above legit All-NBA players.

Here is last year RAPM and other info. http://nbashotcharts.com/rapm?id=1109440799

Since that PIPM creator now works somewhere else, unless he makes his info public, that info won't be available since it's his creation.

Past data as mentioned, but not for last season, is here https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1qfyWxm1JL4BMD0ZY3kUvKOkOh6mjtL1i_vvV7NZqerk/edit#gid=0

But it looks like that google doc is in the owner's trash and will be gone soon so you have to make a copy (it tells you to do this since it won't be available for long).

Most of the best advanced stats though are on nba.com

[MyUniBroDavis]

PIPM is no longer publicly available because Jacob Goldstein has been signed by Monumental Sports & Entertainment as a research analyst assisting across the Wizards, Mystics and Go-Go (he had to take town his work). However, right here is a PIPM sheet that goes from like 1974 to 2019. The most recent season is not available in this sheet. Here it is: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1qfyWxm1JL4BMD0ZY3kUvKOkOh6mjtL1i_vvV7NZqerk/edit#gid=0

WARNING: These stats are not saying guys like Robert Covington, etc. are actually better than like a Bradley Beal for example. These stats measure impact in their roles, or rather how well each player is performing the role they are given. Someone playing the glue guy role like Covington, has relative to the rest of the league, plays a much easier 3&D, then someone like Beal who has to completely carry a Washington Wizards offense. The numbers reflect that.

Well I’ll say it.

Robert Covington is a better basketball player than Bradley Beal.

Beal “carrying” an offense to a lottery record matters as much as he dragged that horrid defense down. Beal helps literally no team more than Covington. Obviously not even on a bad team judging by this year so the carrying argument is dead entirely.

Maybe. If Covington can defend like he did this past year in the playoffs, Covington is maybe the best defender in the league (was according to PIPM). I will say I think Beal has been much better on defense in years past when he didn't have near the same offensive load, and I believe he could still provide offensive value on a multitude of teams. I might agree with you honestly.

I mean giannis is alot higher on D, but beals a genuine offensive star lol so saying hed help no team more is a bit much, its about role and what theyre good at, and how they fit into their team

[bwgood77]

Well I’ll say it.

Robert Covington is a better basketball player than Bradley Beal.

Beal “carrying” an offense to a lottery record matters as much as he dragged that horrid defense down. Beal helps literally no team more than Covington. Obviously not even on a bad team judging by this year so the carrying argument is dead entirely.

Maybe. If Covington can defend like he did this past year in the playoffs, Covington is maybe the best defender in the league (was according to PIPM). I will say I think Beal has been much better on defense in years past when he didn't have near the same offensive load, and I believe he could still provide offensive value on a multitude of teams. I might agree with you honestly.

I mean giannis is alot higher on D, but beals a genuine offensive star lol so saying hed help no team more is a bit much, its about role and what theyre good at, and how they fit into their team

I don't think Washington would be (or would have been) better if you replaced Beal with Covington.

[blabla]

This is the most comprehensive set of single year RAPM J.E. posted online before he got hired by NBA teams and disappeared.

He provided RPM to ESPN for many years, *then* he disappeared

[feyki]

Seems not bad for post 85 era. Pierce over Lebron for 2005 looks good but Pierce over Lebron for 2011 is saying me that on/off metrics are useless.

Edit: Thoughts on pipm; Kareem on the top till 1981 and almost top 5 in every year(7 at 84, 6 at 86) till 87. And plus one more all star year for 87. 11 ATG years, 6 All NBA and 1 All star, phhhh. That's why he's GOAT. But Parish over Bird for 81 did burn my brain. What kind of logic behind this?

[Crunch 99]

Here is last year RAPM and other info. http://nbashotcharts.com/rapm?id=1109440799

Thanks. They've got RAPM updated to include the 20/21 season now. The top 5 ranked RAPM players this season are Gobert, Leonard, Conley, George and James. RAPM is suppose to be more useful averaging across multiple seasons, which is available on the three and five year tabs.

http://nbashotcharts.com/rapm?id=-2146555570

[bwgood77]

Here is last year RAPM and other info. http://nbashotcharts.com/rapm?id=1109440799

Thanks. They've got RAPM updated to include the 20/21 season now. The top 5 ranked RAPM players this season are Gobert, Leonard, Conley, George and James. RAPM is suppose to be more useful averaging across multiple seasons, which is available on the three and five year tabs.

http://nbashotcharts.com/rapm?id=-2146555570

Interesting..Conley is 3rd on the RAPTOR ratings too...15th on LEBRON