Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXIX

[Ruzious]

In the Pacers board there was an active discussion about a sign-and-trade of Bertans for Myles Turner...

Problem is they would like our #9 pick...The best (or least worst) proposal was as follows: Bertans (S&T), Bryant and #9 for Myles Turner (3-years left) and Mcdermott (1-year left).

Mcdermott shot over 40% last season, maybe he can somehow replace Bertan's role and Turner can also stretch the floor (while being one of the premier rim protectors in the NBA).

Would any of you do it?

I would still prefer to draft Okongwu at #9, but if he's not available and the Pacers would add a future lottery-protected first or 2 future second rounders, it could be tempting..

We can't trade our #9 pick as part of the transaction because the draft is before free agency. It would have to be a future pick, which makes a bit more sense under the premise that we are trying to win now.

Something like Bertans + lotto protected 1st for Turner is the framework of a good trade. (I don't see why they'd want Bryant given that they have Sabonis and Bitadze already.)

With our center needs taken care of, we can opt for best player available at #9. We have needs at every position except center and shooting guard. A defensive wing like Okoro, or a shooter like Nesmith to replace Bertans would be nice.

I don't love Turner. Definitely a 2nd tier big. He would improve the defense tho. I value Bertans spacing from the 4 alot. I'd consider a swap depending on how much $$$ Bertans would get but I'm not trading a first. They can have JRob or Wags tho lol.

Yeah, I could see that trade as a realistic possibility. Probably makes sense for both teams.

[payitforward]

In the Pacers board there was an active discussion about a sign-and-trade of Bertans for Myles Turner...

Problem is they would like our #9 pick...The best (or least worst) proposal was as follows: Bertans (S&T), Bryant and #9 for Myles Turner (3-years left) and Mcdermott (1-year left).

Mcdermott shot over 40% last season, maybe he can somehow replace Bertan's role and Turner can also stretch the floor (while being one of the premier rim protectors in the NBA).

Would any of you do it?

I would still prefer to draft Okongwu at #9, but if he's not available and the Pacers would add a future lottery-protected first or 2 future second rounders, it could be tempting..

Wait what? I wouldn't consider trading any 2 of Bertans, Bryant, and 9 for Turner and McDermott. Frankly, I'd much prefer Bryant at 8.5 mil a year than Turner at 17.5 mil a year.

Agree -- that's a hard pass. Turner is not a bad player, but he is overrated & has not improved in his years in the league. Not interested.

[payitforward]

On the other hand, Kevin O'Connor had the Wizards moving up to 6 in a draft night trade (TBJ, 9th, and 37th for the Hawks' 6th pick) so where there's smoke, there's fire?

The 37th pick alone should be enough to move up 3 spots, throwing in TBJ would be a ridiculous overpay.

I am not even sure I would be willing to give up our 2nd rounder, there are going to be some good players available 31-40, Washington would be wise to hold onto the pick.

In this draft, I would much rather have the #9 & #37 than the #6 alone.

Far smarter would be to trade down a few spots -- rather than up.

[payitforward]

In the Pacers board there was an active discussion about a sign-and-trade of Bertans for Myles Turner...

Problem is they would like our #9 pick...The best (or least worst) proposal was as follows: Bertans (S&T), Bryant and #9 for Myles Turner (3-years left) and Mcdermott (1-year left).

Mcdermott shot over 40% last season, maybe he can somehow replace Bertan's role and Turner can also stretch the floor (while being one of the premier rim protectors in the NBA).

Would any of you do it?

I would still prefer to draft Okongwu at #9, but if he's not available and the Pacers would add a future lottery-protected first or 2 future second rounders, it could be tempting..

We can't trade our #9 pick as part of the transaction because the draft is before free agency. It would have to be a future pick, which makes a bit more sense under the premise that we are trying to win now.

Something like Bertans + lotto protected 1st for Turner is the framework of a good trade. (I don't see why they'd want Bryant given that they have Sabonis and Bitadze already.)

With our center needs taken care of, we can opt for best player available at #9. We have needs at every position except center and shooting guard. A defensive wing like Okoro, or a shooter like Nesmith to replace Bertans would be nice.

The big problem with all of these trades -- above all any that include reducing the number of our draft picks -- can be summed up under, in nate's words, "the premise that we are trying to win now."

I have never seen this phrase with an objective attached to it: trying to win WHAT? It's meaningless without a particular goal.

In fact, we are not trying to win anything. We are just trying to look respectable -- to be average (.500 record -- by definition) or at least not too far below average.

That's Ted's only goal, as he's demonstrated over and over.

If we want to win something, we'll have to build to do it in the future. &, of course, we'll have to be both skillful & also lucky.

If we want to be respectable now, our only chance at that is to sacrifice the resources we would use in order to win in the future.

Nothing in what I've said requires any deep thinking to understand. It's perfectly obvious & straightforward. If I want a dollar today, but I don't have it, the only way to get it is to contract to pay back more than a dollar in the future. Period. That's it.

[payitforward]

If we want to move Bertans in a sign and trade, why not? If we have a trade partner that will give us forward-facing assets in return, young players with the potential to improve -- so that even if we don't "win now" (which of course we won't) we at least have a possibility to win -- i.e., concretely, the possibility to contend in the East.

That would be the first step in proving that winning something is our goal: make moves that allow us to build a team that can contend in the East.

[Ruzious]

If we trade Bertans and trinkets for Turner, then trade down to about 15 for a shooting 3 - either S Bey or Nesmith. Boston remains the most likely team to trade with - given the picks they have (including 14), but I wouldn't rule out a team that's willing to give up a future FRP - the Danny Ainge method.

[payitforward]

We don't have any trinkets, Ruz. We have Wall & Beal, we have young players we need, & we have trash.

If someone out there wants to confuse Jerome Robinson, Moritz Wagner & Admiral Schofield with trinkets -- great....

But, since both Robinson & Wagner have proven that they have as close to zero trade value as possible, & Admiral clearly has none, it doesn't seem likely anyone will view them that way.

[Ruzious]

If we want to move Bertans in a sign and trade, why not? If we have a trade partner that will give us forward-facing assets in return, young players with the potential to improve -- so that even if we don't "win now" (which of course we won't) we at least have a possibility to win -- i.e., concretely, the possibility to contend in the East.

That would be the first step in proving that winning something is our goal: make moves that allow us to build a team that can contend in the East.

Agreed - though I think they'd be more likely to be agreeable to get a forward-facing assets in a trade down.

1 more week till draft day. Sigh.

[nate33]

If we trade Bertans and trinkets for Turner, then trade down to about 15 for a shooting 3 - either S Bey or Nesmith. Boston remains the most likely team to trade with - given the picks they have (including 14), but I wouldn't rule out a team that's willing to give up a future FRP - the Danny Ainge method.

I like that.

Bertans and a future lotto protected first for Turner.
#9 for #14 + #26.
Draft Saddiq Bey and Tyler Bey.

[doclinkin]

On the other hand, Kevin O'Connor had the Wizards moving up to 6 in a draft night trade (TBJ, 9th, and 37th for the Hawks' 6th pick) so where there's smoke, there's fire?

The 37th pick alone should be enough to move up 3 spots, throwing in TBJ would be a ridiculous overpay.

I am not even sure I would be willing to give up our 2nd rounder, there are going to be some good players available 31-40, Washington would be wise to hold onto the pick.

In this draft, I would much rather have the #9 & #37 than the #6 alone.

Far smarter would be to trade down a few spots -- rather than up.

I think I'd do that trade for Okongwu if I had intel he wouldn't fall to 9, which seems likely. I'd be less concerned about the Pistons and Knicks taking him (though with Thibodeeax guiding the Knicks they might, and package a surplus Big for a perimeter defender in the trade). Still I'd bet Atlanta could find a buyer. WIll there be equivalent talent lower down? Probably. Good depth certainly, and a potential of there being an upside player who proves better, maybe. However the flip side of the equation that says you get more bites at the apple is that the best talent evaluators in the league miss all the time. Yes you might get one with more chances, though there are stronger chances a better player goes early.

There are times to move up. When you do have a solid statistical outlier who is a good fit for any team, and is young but mature, with a game that seems like it will translate quickly, then passing on a chance to draft multiple rookies that might pan out, and will likely require seasoning before they do, is a fair trade. Teams do not have the roster depth to develop handfuls of rookies every year. Frankly even on a trade down I'd be looking at picking up future first round picks, in staggered years, for that dollar cost averaging over time. Some years will have more bang for the buck, players take time to develop, if you have a bunch of young talent on the squad at once you can drive down their value by slowing their learning curve and teaching them to get used to losing while they all flail and adjust.

I'm in this mindset this year, in my decision tree:
--trade up for O.
--trade down for picks, including future picks or the rights to swap, by selecting a player who is a decent fit or high level talent, but is coveted more by teams lower down, and at least one guy we like has fallen to their pick. Discreetly inquire about the swap.
--trade down for this years picks, if multiple targets have fallen or look to fall and they own both picks
--make the best of whatever is available, even if it is perceived as a reach by pundits, select the guy we like irrespective of the predictive power of the mocks. They fail every year and should not be treated as gospel of who is sure to be available.
--make the best of whatever shakes loose from higher up, or who we chose as the best balance of talent/fit, if the value of the offers are less than the team assessment of the guy we got.

[doclinkin]

If we want to move Bertans in a sign and trade, why not? If we have a trade partner that will give us forward-facing assets in return, young players with the potential to improve -- so that even if we don't "win now" (which of course we won't) we at least have a possibility to win -- i.e., concretely, the possibility to contend in the East.

That would be the first step in proving that winning something is our goal: make moves that allow us to build a team that can contend in the East.

I suspect we might get better offers for Bertans if we waited til mid season after the trade restriction passes. If John Wall is who we think he is, Bertans may look really spicy to teams who need that floor stretcher. Though at that point it might prove tough to trade him if the squad is playing well together. In that case then we would still get excellent offers after the season and before the next draft, when a handful of high level talents look to be available.

I think Wall, Beal, Bertans and 2 defenders who pass would look like a winning team in the East.

A developing Bonga (needs a 3 pt shot), and Okongwu, plus the depth we get from the growth of TBrownJ , TBryantJr, and Rui (and Matthews, and possible 2nd round, 2-way players, and Undrafteds) would be a developing and solid team.

Um. With a new coach.

[penbeast0]

...

I think Wall, Beal, Bertans and 2 defenders who pass would look like a winning team in the East.

That would be Thomas Bryant and Rui Hachimura?

[doclinkin]

...

I think Wall, Beal, Bertans and 2 defenders who pass would look like a winning team in the East.

That would be Thomas Bryant and Rui Hachimura?

Caught me mid edit. To me while they develop I'd have a strong 2nd team of our developing youth, with fluid substitutions in and out next to starters, and an eye to late game minutes for whichever of the young cats is defending with effort, shooting hot, and playing well. I think our 2nd team might feast on other squads back ups. But potential and draft order would not influence who plays with the starters.

I think we need better load management for Wall and Beal, so better use of a bench will be key.

But:
PG: TBJ with a 3 pt shot, Ish
SG: ? Combo guard with range
SF: Rui with a 3 pt shot, and developing defense
PF: ? interior defender (Xavier Tillman?)
C: Bryant

that team could beat up on 2nd line players, while earning minutes next to starters due to good play and load management/health/rest days. That way you reward winning and success, energy effort and defense.

[Ruzious]

Chase Hughes of NBC Sports changed his story. Now, it's multiple teams WITHOUT cap room are looking into sign and trade options re Bertans. https://hoopshype.com/rumor/teams-planning-sign-and-trade-offers-for-davis-bertans/

I heard the rumor on sports talk radio this AM, and they said 3 unnamed teams are interested - just saying 2 are in the West and 1 in the East.

Again, it never made sense that teams with cap room would do a sign and trade, because he's a UFA, and they could simply sign him without giving up anything, and he'd be their's.

Yes, that makes a lot more sense. And it could also drive up the price we charge since they have no other way of absorbing Bertans' new salary. The one issue is that we would have to take back filler salary equal to roughly 80% of Bertans' new contract.

Chase Hughes speculates the teams being interested are the Celtics, Lakers, and Nuggets. If it's the Nuggets, Will Barton would make sense - assuming his knee is healed - he'd fit with idea of winning now. Very solid all-around swingman - will turn 30 at the beginning of the season. Good BBIQ. 2 years left on his contract - 13.7 mil this coming season matches about what Bertans should get. And he grew up in Baltimore.

[doclinkin]

Chase Hughes of NBC Sports changed his story. Now, it's multiple teams WITHOUT cap room are looking into sign and trade options re Bertans. https://hoopshype.com/rumor/teams-planning-sign-and-trade-offers-for-davis-bertans/

I heard the rumor on sports talk radio this AM, and they said 3 unnamed teams are interested - just saying 2 are in the West and 1 in the East.

Again, it never made sense that teams with cap room would do a sign and trade, because he's a UFA, and they could simply sign him without giving up anything, and he'd be their's.

Yes, that makes a lot more sense. And it could also drive up the price we charge since they have no other way of absorbing Bertans' new salary. The one issue is that we would have to take back filler salary equal to roughly 80% of Bertans' new contract.

Chase Hughes speculates the teams being interested are the Celtics, Lakers, and Nuggets. If it's the Nuggets, Will Barton would make sense - assuming his knee is healed - he'd fit with idea of winning now. Very solid all-around swingman - will turn 30 at the beginning of the season. Good BBIQ. 2 years left on his contract - 13.7 mil this coming season matches about what Bertans should get. And he grew up in Baltimore.

If the Celtics, I'd love their unprotected Memphis Grizzlies pick in 2021. I suspect they'd rather dangle Gordon Hayward instead, but given the size and length of his contract they'd probably have to add sweeteners to get it to work. And I don't think we'd want it or can afford it even with the Lux tax givebacks the new escrow plan is providing for.

[TGW]

Since it looks like the Rockets are selling off everyone, would they be interested in a S&T of Bertans for Covington?

Covington would be a huge upgrade at small forward.

[pcbothwel]

Since it looks like the Rockets are selling off everyone, would they be interested in a S&T of Bertans for Covington?

Covington would be a huge upgrade at small forward.

Agreed. Covington would be a great add, but right now our wings/4's are Brown, Bonga, and Rui... None of which can spread the floor to a reliable degree. I think Bertans is such a unique player that I have a hard time letting him go in a lateral move.
And even if we wanted to, why would Houston sell off the only player NOT complaining.

Seeing as the Rockets dont have a 1st in 2021, but have their 2022 & 2023 picks... I think they move Westbrook along with a couple other guys in an attempt to make one more run with Harden this year (And recover lost Revenue), and then move Harden next summer and rebuild quickly for 2023/24.

[nate33]

Since it looks like the Rockets are selling off everyone, would they be interested in a S&T of Bertans for Covington?

Covington would be a huge upgrade at small forward.

I don't see the rationale for Houston. If they're selling off, they would want picks and prospects, not a 28-year-old role player making $15M a year.

[queridiculo]

If the Wizards could turn Bertans, our lottery pick and Thomas Bryant into Covington and Turner, would you do it?

Wall
Beal
Covington
Hachimura
Turner

That's a potent starting unit.

[Ruzious]

If the Wizards could turn Bertans, our lottery pick and Thomas Bryant into Covington and Turner, would you do it?

Wall
Beal
Covington
Hachimura
Turner

That's a potent starting unit.

I'd consider it, because I think Beal and Wall would be on board with it and we could win up to 50 games in an 82 game season, but ultimately I wouldn't do it, because I want to see Bryant's development here, and I want to see what we can do with 9.

And if we keep Bertans and add front-court defense through the draft, we should have an outstanding bench - and win up to 50 games while making Beal satisfied.