The Lebron Thread | 2021 & Offseason

[Dupp]

With DeRozan I believe he started shooting threes and when he went to the spurs he stopped. So I’d probably put that on pop.

I don't let Pop off the hook, but clearly DeRozan has a resistance to shooting 3's that he can't blame anyone else for.

I mean attempting threes though. His last year in Toronto he attempted 3.6 per game. With the spurs 0.6 per game. Not saying pop made him suck at shooting threes, he always has but pop probably got him to stop shooting them and focus on what he’s good at.

[Greyhound]

lmao, Kieff's defense was chit.

He, he, haha, it was not.

Context matters. Morris was adequate defensively alongside a big. Things got dicey when he was lining up at center (alongside Kuzma) in those dreaded second unit small ball lineups.

That having been said, regardless of how you viewed his defense, the toughness he brings to your team is a real thing. It’s something that you would rather have and not need, then need and not have.

Mademan is right. His team defense was actually awful. Man defense was below average but where he was particularly bad was weakside and offball D. People don't see it because no one really tunes into an nba game to watch the weakside but Kieff was always certain to cause a breakdown if he was there and he combined with Kuzma was a large part of why their 2nd/3rdish lineup of the game always brokedown defensively. (especially after the Houston series till the finals. Denver and Miami ran a lot off offball stuff he couldn't cope with)

I know how to evaluate defense.

Context is everything, and he is an adequate defensive player. I watched the games, you guys will not convince me otherwise.

Nobody with any sense would expect a lineup featuring Kuzma at the four and Morris at the five (Vogel’s second unit go to, once McGee was pulled from the rotation) to be good defensively. Plugged in and played at his natural position (alongside a defensive big), he is not breaking down your defense.

In Morris I trust. Don’t mess with the chemistry unless absolutely necessary.

[trickshot]

He, he, haha, it was not.

Context matters. Morris was adequate defensively alongside a big. Things got dicey when he was lining up at center (alongside Kuzma) in those dreaded second unit small ball lineups.

That having been said, regardless of how you viewed his defense, the toughness he brings to your team is a real thing. It’s something that you would rather have and not need, then need and not have.

Mademan is right. His team defense was actually awful. Man defense was below average but where he was particularly bad was weakside and offball D. People don't see it because no one really tunes into an nba game to watch the weakside but Kieff was always certain to cause a breakdown if he was there and he combined with Kuzma was a large part of why their 2nd/3rdish lineup of the game always brokedown defensively. (especially after the Houston series till the finals. Denver and Miami ran a lot off offball stuff he couldn't cope with)

I know how to evaluate defense.

Context is everything, and he is an adequate defensive player. I watched the games, you guys will not convince me otherwise.

Nobody with any sense would expect a lineup featuring Kuzma at the four and Morris at the five (Vogel’s second unit go to, once McGee was pulled from the rotation) to be good defensively. Plugged in and played at his natural position (alongside a defensive big), he is not breaking down your defense.

In Morris I trust. Don’t mess with the chemistry unless absolutely necessary.

it's cool. Wasn't trying to be patronising and yes playing him at the 5 didn't help but with all the context considered, still think his team defense is garbage tier. They canned that in the finals but his team defense/rotations/weakside rotations and communications directly caused or contributed to a lot of breakdowns. With the Warriors back in the picture there's no room for players who will be prone to backdoor breakdowns but can respect your idea to keep the team together for chemistry

[Greyhound]

Mademan is right. His team defense was actually awful. Man defense was below average but where he was particularly bad was weakside and offball D. People don't see it because no one really tunes into an nba game to watch the weakside but Kieff was always certain to cause a breakdown if he was there and he combined with Kuzma was a large part of why their 2nd/3rdish lineup of the game always brokedown defensively. (especially after the Houston series till the finals. Denver and Miami ran a lot off offball stuff he couldn't cope with)

I know how to evaluate defense.

Context is everything, and he is an adequate defensive player. I watched the games, you guys will not convince me otherwise.

Nobody with any sense would expect a lineup featuring Kuzma at the four and Morris at the five (Vogel’s second unit go to, once McGee was pulled from the rotation) to be good defensively. Plugged in and played at his natural position (alongside a defensive big), he is not breaking down your defense.

In Morris I trust. Don’t mess with the chemistry unless absolutely necessary.

it's cool. Wasn't trying to be patronising and yes playing him at the 5 didn't help but with all the context considered, still think his team defense is garbage tier. They canned that in the finals but his team defense/rotations/weakside rotations and communications directly caused or contributed to a lot of breakdowns. With the Warriors back in the picture there's no room for players who will be prone to backdoor breakdowns but can respect your idea to keep the team together for chemistry

Garbage tier?

You are making stuff up now (fiction plain and simple).

[Dupp]

Don’t think he’s as mentally weak as people are saying. Maybe a little but his biggest issue is his skill set.

[dcstanley]

It's odd how resistant he is to shooting threes. He has the tools to be a decent long range shooter.

[Jordan Syndrome]

Put me in the category of "Smart perimeter players figured out they should be shooting 3's while DeRozan was a minor".

Smart players like Jimmy Butler?

It is worth noting Demar has been moving closer to the rim which is a move in the right direction given his game. His corner 3 was at 40% this season, a move in the right direction.

Touche. It's certainly true that Butler has found a way to consistently add value that his team misses when he's on the bench, or on his next team. Part of my snark here is that DeRozan's track record of his team doing best when he's not on the floor is kind of legendary. I wouldn't be looking to add a poor man's LeBron like Butler to LeBron's team even though I'd be confident he'd find a way to add value. Considerably harder for me to see adding DeRozan into the mix.

I agree with all of this. I dont think basketball is as simple as some of us want it to be: "Shoot or get off the court".

I will say I do get using DeRozan as your lead bench scorer, and if you're fine DeRozan's salary to a bench guy, that could work, but in terms of that closing lineup, what exactly is DeRozan doing out there with LeBron & AD. Do you really need a guy clogging up space on the interior that you're relying on LeBron & AD to dominate? Don't you want more 3-point shooting, passing, and defense?

Derozan isn't clogging up space though. The way I would envision it is he is on the perimeter near the corner.
LeBron can drive and if he kicks to DeMar in the corner he can either...
A) Shoot
B) Dribble into the 3 point line and now he has a chance to attack the rim, finish anywhere from 16 feet in or keep the ball moving.

DeMar strikes me as a guy who wants to win at this point in his career and he has a tremendous amount of respect for LeBron.

[Doctor MJ]

Smart players like Jimmy Butler?

It is worth noting Demar has been moving closer to the rim which is a move in the right direction given his game. His corner 3 was at 40% this season, a move in the right direction.

Touche. It's certainly true that Butler has found a way to consistently add value that his team misses when he's on the bench, or on his next team. Part of my snark here is that DeRozan's track record of his team doing best when he's not on the floor is kind of legendary. I wouldn't be looking to add a poor man's LeBron like Butler to LeBron's team even though I'd be confident he'd find a way to add value. Considerably harder for me to see adding DeRozan into the mix.

I agree with all of this. I dont think basketball is as simple as some of us want it to be: "Shoot or get off the court".

I will say I do get using DeRozan as your lead bench scorer, and if you're fine DeRozan's salary to a bench guy, that could work, but in terms of that closing lineup, what exactly is DeRozan doing out there with LeBron & AD. Do you really need a guy clogging up space on the interior that you're relying on LeBron & AD to dominate? Don't you want more 3-point shooting, passing, and defense?

Derozan isn't clogging up space though. The way I would envision it is he is on the perimeter near the corner.
LeBron can drive and if he kicks to DeMar in the corner he can either...
A) Shoot
B) Dribble into the 3 point line and now he has a chance to attack the rim, finish anywhere from 16 feet in or keep the ball moving.

DeMar strikes me as a guy who wants to win at this point in his career and he has a tremendous amount of respect for LeBron.

I agree that putting DeRozan into the corner is the best use for him next to LeBron & DeRozan, the problem is that I think you want your guy in the corner to actually be a threat to take the corner 3.

Re: DeRozan wants to win at this point in his career. I think he always wanted that, the problem for years is that he's not a good enough alpha to be an alpha and he's literally weak in the value-add skills we require of basically every modern perimeter role player.

[Jordan Syndrome]

Touche. It's certainly true that Butler has found a way to consistently add value that his team misses when he's on the bench, or on his next team. Part of my snark here is that DeRozan's track record of his team doing best when he's not on the floor is kind of legendary. I wouldn't be looking to add a poor man's LeBron like Butler to LeBron's team even though I'd be confident he'd find a way to add value. Considerably harder for me to see adding DeRozan into the mix.

I agree with all of this. I dont think basketball is as simple as some of us want it to be: "Shoot or get off the court".

I will say I do get using DeRozan as your lead bench scorer, and if you're fine DeRozan's salary to a bench guy, that could work, but in terms of that closing lineup, what exactly is DeRozan doing out there with LeBron & AD. Do you really need a guy clogging up space on the interior that you're relying on LeBron & AD to dominate? Don't you want more 3-point shooting, passing, and defense?

Derozan isn't clogging up space though. The way I would envision it is he is on the perimeter near the corner.
LeBron can drive and if he kicks to DeMar in the corner he can either...
A) Shoot
B) Dribble into the 3 point line and now he has a chance to attack the rim, finish anywhere from 16 feet in or keep the ball moving.

DeMar strikes me as a guy who wants to win at this point in his career and he has a tremendous amount of respect for LeBron.

I agree that putting DeRozan into the corner is the best use for him next to LeBron & DeRozan, the problem is that I think you want your guy in the corner to actually be a threat to take the corner 3.

You are right and I misspoke earlier. While DeRozan shot 40% from the corner last season, his career is 36.4% and over the last 3 seasons is a shade above 30%.

I'm of the belief DeRozan would become willing to take the shot more frequently but we may never see this experiment take place.

Re: DeRozan wants to win at this point in his career. I think he always wanted that, the problem for years is that he's not a good enough alpha to be an alpha and he's literally weak in the value-add skills we require of basically every modern perimeter role player.

You are right, though admittedly he is a better playmaker than you give him credit for. Over the past 3 years DeMar is up to 26.2 AST% (Not a huge fan of the statistic but we aren't looking at Shawn Marion here) and his Assist/Turnover ratio is 8.0/3.4 or ~2.3 Assists to Turnover in the same time period.

Look, I like him more as a thought experiment and theory of my own rather than a paper fit. A player who has "present day perimeter abilities" in Isaiah Thomas was horrendous next to LeBron James. Id rather not go down this rabbit hole but it is simply an example of a player who, while modern, didnt work out.

[Heej]

DeRozan for Danny Green has disaster written all over it. Big name star with bad advanced metrics for much maligned glue guy with good advanced metrics. It just doesn't seem like a smart move man. I actually like DD a lot too and I'd be extremely happy for him if he went to the Lakers and won but this move clearly lowers your championship odds imo

[KTM_2813]

I don't know a lot about basketball, but I know that DG and KK for DD is a terrible move for the Lakers. They've generally been pretty smart with their roster moves since Pelinka took over, so I doubt they actually do it.

[Heej]

He probably is a little frustrated his team won a title and 2 months later the next season is already starting. I would be too. This short of an "off-season" has never happened in the history of the league.

It's definitely mostly mental, but physically he played a full playoff run + two weeks of games. At his age/mileage it certainly would allow him to go harder in the RS if there was more time off.

I'm so sad for LeBron James, making Millions of dollars and complaining he only gets two months off. 200+ Million Americans don't get two months off and don't get Millions of Dollars.

I like LeBron, but come on.

Lmaooo FOH being an NBA player is so much harder than drooling at your office chair or working from home making low energy posts like this.

[Jordan Syndrome]

He probably is a little frustrated his team won a title and 2 months later the next season is already starting. I would be too. This short of an "off-season" has never happened in the history of the league.

It's definitely mostly mental, but physically he played a full playoff run + two weeks of games. At his age/mileage it certainly would allow him to go harder in the RS if there was more time off.

I'm so sad for LeBron James, making Millions of dollars and complaining he only gets two months off. 200+ Million Americans don't get two months off and don't get Millions of Dollars.

I like LeBron, but come on.

Lmaooo FOH being an NBA player is so much harder than drooling at your office chair or working from home making low energy posts like this.

You're delusional.

[dreamshake]

I know how to evaluate defense.

Context is everything, and he is an adequate defensive player. I watched the games, you guys will not convince me otherwise.

Nobody with any sense would expect a lineup featuring Kuzma at the four and Morris at the five (Vogel’s second unit go to, once McGee was pulled from the rotation) to be good defensively. Plugged in and played at his natural position (alongside a defensive big), he is not breaking down your defense.

In Morris I trust. Don’t mess with the chemistry unless absolutely necessary.

it's cool. Wasn't trying to be patronising and yes playing him at the 5 didn't help but with all the context considered, still think his team defense is garbage tier. They canned that in the finals but his team defense/rotations/weakside rotations and communications directly caused or contributed to a lot of breakdowns. With the Warriors back in the picture there's no room for players who will be prone to backdoor breakdowns but can respect your idea to keep the team together for chemistry

Garbage tier?

You are making stuff up now (fiction plain and simple).

Put me in the "Morris played garbage tier team defense camp" as well. It was straight up horrible - whether he was the 4 or 5. Like single-handedly torpedo'd a LOT of defensive possessions. I was noting it in the LBJ thread pretty often during the games. Cranji's (as good at breaking down games as anybody - at least anybody online) mentioned it a lot on his live-tweets too. I didn't realize this was even up for debate.

[trickshot]

it's cool. Wasn't trying to be patronising and yes playing him at the 5 didn't help but with all the context considered, still think his team defense is garbage tier. They canned that in the finals but his team defense/rotations/weakside rotations and communications directly caused or contributed to a lot of breakdowns. With the Warriors back in the picture there's no room for players who will be prone to backdoor breakdowns but can respect your idea to keep the team together for chemistry

Garbage tier?

You are making stuff up now (fiction plain and simple).

Put me in the "Morris played garbage tier team defense camp" as well. It was straight up horrible - whether he was the 4 or 5. Like single-handedly torpedo'd a LOT of defensive possessions. I was noting it in the LBJ thread pretty often during the games. Cranji's (as good at breaking down games as anybody - at least anybody online) mentioned it a lot on his live-tweets too. I didn't realize this was even up for debate.

Yep Lakers have so many ballwatchers coming off their bench (except Caruso). Jr, Dion, Kuzma (though he's improving), Morris and Rondo when he isn't fully locked in. Area that needs improvement. Some of those Lebron plus bench players lineup tanked Lebron's plus minus really really bad in many games

[MyUniBroDavis]

Random fun fact

My temporary roomate is really good friends someone whose good friends with wade, so indirectly have heard stuff about bron lol (nothing bball related obv)

Kinda wild

[Dupp]

Great story, glad you went into such detail.

[zimpy27]

Random fun fact

My temporary roomate is really good friends someone whose good friends with wade, so indirectly have heard stuff about bron lol (nothing bball related obv)

Kinda wild

So you got some gossip? I'll put the kettle on

[zimpy27]

I agree with all of this. I dont think basketball is as simple as some of us want it to be: "Shoot or get off the court".



Derozan isn't clogging up space though. The way I would envision it is he is on the perimeter near the corner.
LeBron can drive and if he kicks to DeMar in the corner he can either...
A) Shoot
B) Dribble into the 3 point line and now he has a chance to attack the rim, finish anywhere from 16 feet in or keep the ball moving.

DeMar strikes me as a guy who wants to win at this point in his career and he has a tremendous amount of respect for LeBron.

I agree that putting DeRozan into the corner is the best use for him next to LeBron & DeRozan, the problem is that I think you want your guy in the corner to actually be a threat to take the corner 3.

You are right and I misspoke earlier. While DeRozan shot 40% from the corner last season, his career is 36.4% and over the last 3 seasons is a shade above 30%.

I'm of the belief DeRozan would become willing to take the shot more frequently but we may never see this experiment take place.

Re: DeRozan wants to win at this point in his career. I think he always wanted that, the problem for years is that he's not a good enough alpha to be an alpha and he's literally weak in the value-add skills we require of basically every modern perimeter role player.

You are right, though admittedly he is a better playmaker than you give him credit for. Over the past 3 years DeMar is up to 26.2 AST% (Not a huge fan of the statistic but we aren't looking at Shawn Marion here) and his Assist/Turnover ratio is 8.0/3.4 or ~2.3 Assists to Turnover in the same time period.

Look, I like him more as a thought experiment and theory of my own rather than a paper fit. A player who has "present day perimeter abilities" in Isaiah Thomas was horrendous next to LeBron James. Id rather not go down this rabbit hole but it is simply an example of a player who, while modern, didnt work out.

I think the trade of DG for DD is a big risk. It doesn't help that DG adds impact even when he's not shooting well. If we could better define how he impacts the game we may see why DD does not.

I do like DD for his iso scoring and playmaking. That style usually works in the playoffs quite well, especially as a 3rd option.

[nzahir]

I am only a fan of moving DG if we can find a replacement for him, which isn't very easy

I think Wes Matthews is similar

Shot better this year on catch and shoot, but he is a streaky guy like DG

Better man defender at this stage, better at attacking the rim off the dribble by a lot

DG is the better team defender I believe

But a lot of risks to make such a big move

Would prefer Ibaka, Dragic, or Gallo for the mle

If we feel like we need to make a move, Rose and Dinwiddie are easier from a salary perspective

Rose is similar to Dinwiddie, even better in some areas, but injury risks scare me