Who's the G.O.A.T. ?

[bmurph128]

It's still pretty clearly MJ to me, although LeBron has definitely joined the conversation with MJ, Kareem and Russell.

LeBron has too often needed to change situations to maintain a competitive edge, and he too often has been the underdog for me to put him over MJ. His greatest accomplishment was an upset of the heavily favored 73-win Warriors. MJ was the 73-win Warriors of his era, in addition to him consistently winning and confirming his status as top dog.

MJ stayed in Chicago and elevated his teammates, notably Pippen who was completely unreliable offensively and who was largely carried by MJ. MJ also had the leadership to rein in Pippen and his beach ass tendencies, whereas LeBron couldn't adapt to Kyrie who fled from Cleveland and ultimately caused LeBron's second departure. These things should matter. Let's be honest, MJ also never played with a Dwyane Wade or an Anthony Davis for instance.

That cuts both ways. You're underselling Pippen and the role players - check out what they did without MJ when he retired, and think about what Wade was doing in Miami four years before LeBron got there.

But the biggest point you missed on is that LeBron never got to play with Phil Jackson. MJ played half his career without Jackson and accomplished nothing. Jackson coached half his career without MJ and won another 5 titles. Two without having a second superstar player.

If Jackson never came along, MJ never wins a title because he doesn't leave Chicago, and instead of people hating LeBron thered be a million posts on realgm titled "should MJ have done what LBJ did?"

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using RealGM mobile app

[Chanel Bomber]

It's still pretty clearly MJ to me, although LeBron has definitely joined the conversation with MJ, Kareem and Russell.

LeBron has too often needed to change situations to maintain a competitive edge, and he too often has been the underdog for me to put him over MJ. His greatest accomplishment was an upset of the heavily favored 73-win Warriors. MJ was the 73-win Warriors of his era, in addition to him consistently winning and confirming his status as top dog.

MJ stayed in Chicago and elevated his teammates, notably Pippen who was completely unreliable offensively and who was largely carried by MJ. MJ also had the leadership to rein in Pippen and his beach ass tendencies, whereas LeBron couldn't adapt to Kyrie who fled from Cleveland and ultimately caused LeBron's second departure. These things should matter. Let's be honest, MJ also never played with a Dwyane Wade or an Anthony Davis for instance.

That cuts both ways. You're underselling Pippen and the role players - check out what they did without MJ when he retired, and think about what Wade was doing in Miami four years before LeBron got there.

But the biggest point you missed on is that LeBron never got to play with Phil Jackson. MJ played half his career without Jackson and accomplished nothing. Jackson coached half his career without MJ and won another 5 titles. Two without having a second superstar player.

If Jackson never came along, MJ never wins a title because he doesn't leave Chicago, and instead of people hating LeBron thered be a million posts on realgm titled "should MJ have done what LBJ did?"

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using RealGM mobile app

The Bulls were deep with rosters that fit MJ’s game perfectly. But it’s quite clear the Bulls were riding the wave of the three championships they had won and playing with a very high level of confidence in 1993-94. The team started falling apart the following year largely because Pippen could not lead that team offensively, in addition to them losing Grant. I’m not denying that Pippen was a great two-way player, but I think it’s perfectly accurate to say that he was carried by MJ offensively. His shot was completely unreliable, let alone in crunch time, as was his FT shooting. His scoring efficiency was average even as a second option. And while he was a very good playmaker for a small forward, especially for that era of basketball, I find that aspect of his game to be unreasonably overstated and romanticized. LeBron has played with better offensive players than Pippen on every team he’s won championships with. I’m not talking about supporting casts overall, but about the high-end offensive talent on those rosters.

You’re right about Phil Jackson, historically great coach. Although I must point out that the triangle offense was never the most efficient offense and that it was probably only a matter of time until Jordan started winning championships regardless (although possibly not as consistently as he did under Phil). Coaching has improved dramatically since the 90s. Vogel wasn’t running post-ups for Bill Cartwright or repeatedly having multiple players in or around the lane on offense. Phil’s offense just wouldn’t fly in today’s NBA. LeBron also failed twice with Spo who’s slowly building his case as one of the great coaches in NBA history. MJ also showed more willingness to be coached by Phil than LeBron did under Spo for whatever it’s worth. But yeah, MJ had Phil.

[JordansBulls]

It's still pretty clearly MJ to me, although LeBron has definitely joined the conversation with MJ, Kareem and Russell.

LeBron has too often needed to change situations to maintain a competitive edge, and he too often has been the underdog for me to put him over MJ. His greatest accomplishment was an upset of the heavily favored 73-win Warriors. MJ was the 73-win Warriors of his era, in addition to him consistently winning and confirming his status as top dog.

MJ stayed in Chicago and elevated his teammates, notably Pippen who was completely unreliable offensively and who was largely carried by MJ. MJ also had the leadership to rein in Pippen and his beach ass tendencies, whereas LeBron couldn't adapt to Kyrie who fled from Cleveland and ultimately caused LeBron's second departure. These things should matter. Let's be honest, MJ also never played with a Dwyane Wade or an Anthony Davis for instance.

That cuts both ways. You're underselling Pippen and the role players - check out what they did without MJ when he retired, and think about what Wade was doing in Miami four years before LeBron got there.

But the biggest point you missed on is that LeBron never got to play with Phil Jackson. MJ played half his career without Jackson and accomplished nothing. Jackson coached half his career without MJ and won another 5 titles. Two without having a second superstar player.

If Jackson never came along, MJ never wins a title because he doesn't leave Chicago, and instead of people hating LeBron thered be a million posts on realgm titled "should MJ have done what LBJ did?"

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using RealGM mobile app

Phil didn’t even have a coaching job in the nba before the bulls. You can use that logic once he was coach of Shaq and Kobe but not MJ.

[ThaRegul8r]

The player I like the most.

He's the GOAT because I watched him play growing up and have a strong emotional attachment to him.

[Clay Davis]

The player I like the most.

He's the GOAT because I watched him play growing up and have a strong emotional attachment to him.

The advanced stats say he's overrated.

[Retro_Junkball]

MJ ticks all the boxes. I have Wilt as second. LBJ and Kareem tied for the moment. Russell is a bit of a conundrum because he wasn't a great scorer and had a great team in a smaller league, so without having seen much of him, got to put him fifth. Certainly, he was freakishly athletic for a guy who was probably 6'11 in shoes, so have no trouble believing he was the defensive g.o.a.t.

[JordansBulls]

Tough to say someone was the greatest with 1 title in 11 seasons for the franchise that drafted them with input onto trades and free agents. Also hopped to 4 different teams with star players and still hasn't won as much as other greats despite playing with 3 sets of star teammates with multiple stars on those teams and also being the favorite most of the time.

[Lukeem]

Tough to say someone was the greatest with 1 title in 11 seasons for the franchise that drafted them with input onto trades and free agents. Also hopped to 4 different teams with star players and still hasn't won as much as other greats despite playing with 3 sets of star teammates with multiple stars on those teams and also being the favorite most of the time.

Did you ever consider nothing you said has anything to do with attributes that qualify how good someone is as a basketball player?

[Lukeem]

MJ ticks all the boxes. I have Wilt as second. LBJ and Kareem tied for the moment. Russell is a bit of a conundrum because he wasn't a great scorer and had a great team in a smaller league, so without having seen much of him, got to put him fifth. Certainly, he was freakishly athletic for a guy who was probably 6'11 in shoes, so have no trouble believing he was the defensive g.o.a.t.

I am very curious do you mind telling me what “all the boxes” are ?

[JordansBulls]

Tough to say someone was the greatest with 1 title in 11 seasons for the franchise that drafted them with input onto trades and free agents. Also hopped to 4 different teams with star players and still hasn't won as much as other greats despite playing with 3 sets of star teammates with multiple stars on those teams and also being the favorite most of the time.

Did you ever consider nothing you said has anything to do with attributes that qualify how good someone is as a basketball player?

Sure it does when we talking the GOAT in a sport. Babe Ruth was winning with the Red Sox wasn't he? Brady and Montana won with the franchises that drafted them and that were garbage before they came. Bulls with MJ when the franchise was garbage before he came. Some guy who wins 1 title in 11 years with a franchise that drafted them isn't saying much.

[Lukeem]

Tough to say someone was the greatest with 1 title in 11 seasons for the franchise that drafted them with input onto trades and free agents. Also hopped to 4 different teams with star players and still hasn't won as much as other greats despite playing with 3 sets of star teammates with multiple stars on those teams and also being the favorite most of the time.

Did you ever consider nothing you said has anything to do with attributes that qualify how good someone is as a basketball player?

Sure it does when we talking the GOAT in a sport. Babe Ruth was winning with the Red Sox wasn't he? Brady and Montana won with the franchises that drafted them and that were garbage before they came. Bulls with MJ when the franchise was garbage before he came. Some guy who wins 1 title in 11 years with a franchise that drafted them isn't saying much.

You’re right about one thing. It really doesn’t say much. It does talk at all about how the player performed, which one would think would be important. But you think it’s more important to talk about how lucky of a situation a player was in, how good of management or support their team could put around them. Or how good/ bad their competition was. None of which you’re talking about.

If you want to move the goal posts why not trash Jordan because he couldn’t even get to the finals until his 7th year when he was 27 and had one of the greatest coaches of all time along with one of top 50 greatest players of all time as a teammate helping carry the load.

Lebron was pretty amazing carrying a complete scrub team for his first 7 years, beating some damn good teams. You trying to trash him because his team was terrible just makes your argument weak.

Jordan has a case for goat and he’s my choice for third of all time but that case has very little reliance on how good his situation was or how bad others was. It’s because he was one of the toughest competitors and one of the most skilled scorers of all time.

[TheDavinciCHODE]

CAN WE PLEASE STOP THREADS LIKE THIS?

IDK man I'm just getting tired of GOAT this and GOAT that and "who is more alpha Jordan or Alexander the Great? Would MJ have conquered the Fertile Crescent then stopped? Or would he have gone to India? And would Alexander have passed to Paxson? Seriously though it's interesting."

There's a lot more to talk about than MJ.

[JordansBulls]

Did you ever consider nothing you said has anything to do with attributes that qualify how good someone is as a basketball player?

Sure it does when we talking the GOAT in a sport. Babe Ruth was winning with the Red Sox wasn't he? Brady and Montana won with the franchises that drafted them and that were garbage before they came. Bulls with MJ when the franchise was garbage before he came. Some guy who wins 1 title in 11 years with a franchise that drafted them isn't saying much.

You’re right about one thing. It really doesn’t say much. It does talk at all about how the player performed, which one would think would be important. But you think it’s more important to talk about how lucky of a situation a player was in, how good of management or support their team could put around them. Or how good/ bad their competition was. None of which you’re talking about.

If you want to move the goal posts why not trash Jordan because he couldn’t even get to the finals until his 7th year when he was 27 and had one of the greatest coaches of all time along with one of top 50 greatest players of all time as a teammate helping carry the load.

Lebron was pretty amazing carrying a complete scrub team for his first 7 years, beating some damn good teams. You trying to trash him because his team was terrible just makes your argument weak.

Jordan has a case for goat and he’s my choice for third of all time but that case has very little reliance on how good his situation was or how bad others was. It’s because he was one of the toughest competitors and one of the most skilled scorers of all time.

How is that moving the goalpost? One guy turned a losing organization into a dynasty the other won 1 title in 11 years with the franchise that drafted him. Also won when they came back to that franchise when they had 2 other stars and had to get a guy suspended for that to happen when they were favorite at the beginning of the season to win it all.

[Lukeem]

Sure it does when we talking the GOAT in a sport. Babe Ruth was winning with the Red Sox wasn't he? Brady and Montana won with the franchises that drafted them and that were garbage before they came. Bulls with MJ when the franchise was garbage before he came. Some guy who wins 1 title in 11 years with a franchise that drafted them isn't saying much.

You’re right about one thing. It really doesn’t say much. It does talk at all about how the player performed, which one would think would be important. But you think it’s more important to talk about how lucky of a situation a player was in, how good of management or support their team could put around them. Or how good/ bad their competition was. None of which you’re talking about.

If you want to move the goal posts why not trash Jordan because he couldn’t even get to the finals until his 7th year when he was 27 and had one of the greatest coaches of all time along with one of top 50 greatest players of all time as a teammate helping carry the load.

Lebron was pretty amazing carrying a complete scrub team for his first 7 years, beating some damn good teams. You trying to trash him because his team was terrible just makes your argument weak.

Jordan has a case for goat and he’s my choice for third of all time but that case has very little reliance on how good his situation was or how bad others was. It’s because he was one of the toughest competitors and one of the most skilled scorers of all time.

How is that moving the goalpost? One guy turned a losing organization into a dynasty the other won 1 title in 11 years with the franchise that drafted him. Also won when they came back to that franchise when they had 2 other stars and had to get a guy suspended for that to happen when they were favorite at the beginning of the season to win it all.

You’re not measuring how good the player was you’re measuring how good the franchise was at building around the player.
If that’s the measure of greatness than who cares about Mj or lebron they are both pathetic compared to bill Russell and the dynasty that was built around him

[JordansBulls]

You’re right about one thing. It really doesn’t say much. It does talk at all about how the player performed, which one would think would be important. But you think it’s more important to talk about how lucky of a situation a player was in, how good of management or support their team could put around them. Or how good/ bad their competition was. None of which you’re talking about.

If you want to move the goal posts why not trash Jordan because he couldn’t even get to the finals until his 7th year when he was 27 and had one of the greatest coaches of all time along with one of top 50 greatest players of all time as a teammate helping carry the load.

Lebron was pretty amazing carrying a complete scrub team for his first 7 years, beating some damn good teams. You trying to trash him because his team was terrible just makes your argument weak.

Jordan has a case for goat and he’s my choice for third of all time but that case has very little reliance on how good his situation was or how bad others was. It’s because he was one of the toughest competitors and one of the most skilled scorers of all time.

How is that moving the goalpost? One guy turned a losing organization into a dynasty the other won 1 title in 11 years with the franchise that drafted him. Also won when they came back to that franchise when they had 2 other stars and had to get a guy suspended for that to happen when they were favorite at the beginning of the season to win it all.

You’re not measuring how good the player was you’re measuring how good the franchise was at building around the player.
If that’s the measure of greatness than who cares about Mj or lebron they are both pathetic compared to bill Russell and the dynasty that was built around him

Bill Russell joined a team with the ROY and the league MVP. Not the same. Also only had to win 2 series for a title for 8 titles and 3 series for 3 titles while other teams had to play an entire series before moving on. I mean in 1965 played a .500 team and went 7 and won by 1 in game 7 vs a team that had to play a series beforehand.

[Lukeem]

How is that moving the goalpost? One guy turned a losing organization into a dynasty the other won 1 title in 11 years with the franchise that drafted him. Also won when they came back to that franchise when they had 2 other stars and had to get a guy suspended for that to happen when they were favorite at the beginning of the season to win it all.

You’re not measuring how good the player was you’re measuring how good the franchise was at building around the player.
If that’s the measure of greatness than who cares about Mj or lebron they are both pathetic compared to bill Russell and the dynasty that was built around him

Bill Russell joined a team with the ROY and the league MVP. Not the same. Also only had to win 2 series for a title for 8 titles and 3 series for 3 titles while other teams had to play an entire series before moving on. I mean in 1965 played a .500 team and went 7 and won by 1 in game 7 vs a team that had to play a series beforehand.

So now context matters ? But not when comparing Jordan and lebron ?

Why not stick with your logic. “Jordan couldn’t win in the playoffs for his first 6 years, isn’t really saying much, needed a new coach and better teammates, ”

[JordansBulls]

You’re not measuring how good the player was you’re measuring how good the franchise was at building around the player.
If that’s the measure of greatness than who cares about Mj or lebron they are both pathetic compared to bill Russell and the dynasty that was built around him

Bill Russell joined a team with the ROY and the league MVP. Not the same. Also only had to win 2 series for a title for 8 titles and 3 series for 3 titles while other teams had to play an entire series before moving on. I mean in 1965 played a .500 team and went 7 and won by 1 in game 7 vs a team that had to play a series beforehand.

So now context matters ? But not when comparing Jordan and lebron ?

Why not stick with your logic. “Jordan couldn’t win in the playoffs for his first 6 years, isn’t really saying much, needed a new coach and better teammates, ”

Both Jordan and Lebron came to crappy franchises while Russell went to a franchise with the ROY and league MVP winner.

I am saying Jordan stuck with franchise that drafted him and turned them into a dynasty while Lebron left and overall only won 1 title in 11 seasons for a franchise that drafted him. Guys who led franchises that never won prior to them joining in less time or more titles in that time frame were MJ, Duncan, Russell, Kareem, Hakeem, Isiah, Bill Walton, Willis Reed to name a few.

[Lukeem]

Bill Russell joined a team with the ROY and the league MVP. Not the same. Also only had to win 2 series for a title for 8 titles and 3 series for 3 titles while other teams had to play an entire series before moving on. I mean in 1965 played a .500 team and went 7 and won by 1 in game 7 vs a team that had to play a series beforehand.

So now context matters ? But not when comparing Jordan and lebron ?

Why not stick with your logic. “Jordan couldn’t win in the playoffs for his first 6 years, isn’t really saying much, needed a new coach and better teammates, ”

Both Jordan and Lebron came to crappy franchises while Russell went to a franchise with the ROY and league MVP winner.

I am saying Jordan stuck with franchise that drafted him and turned them into a dynasty while Lebron left and overall only won 1 title in 11 seasons for a franchise that drafted him. Guys who led franchises that never won prior to them joining in less time or more titles in that time frame were MJ, Duncan, Russell, Kareem, Hakeem, Isiah, Bill Walton, Willis Reed to name a few.

So you think Jordan is better because the bulls had better management? Or you are assuming if the cavs drafted one of the best 40 players of all time Lebron still wouldn’t have won / stayed ?

[scrabbarista]

Recent post. Highlights of Jordan's 21-14-14-3-2 with 1 turnover in 30:00 minutes of play during a blowout of Indiana in '88-'89. Also includes a monster dunk from Pippen.

Watch on YouTube

[JordansBulls]

You’re right about one thing. It really doesn’t say much. It does talk at all about how the player performed, which one would think would be important. But you think it’s more important to talk about how lucky of a situation a player was in, how good of management or support their team could put around them. Or how good/ bad their competition was. None of which you’re talking about.

If you want to move the goal posts why not trash Jordan because he couldn’t even get to the finals until his 7th year when he was 27 and had one of the greatest coaches of all time along with one of top 50 greatest players of all time as a teammate helping carry the load.

Lebron was pretty amazing carrying a complete scrub team for his first 7 years, beating some damn good teams. You trying to trash him because his team was terrible just makes your argument weak.

Jordan has a case for goat and he’s my choice for third of all time but that case has very little reliance on how good his situation was or how bad others was. It’s because he was one of the toughest competitors and one of the most skilled scorers of all time.

How is that moving the goalpost? One guy turned a losing organization into a dynasty the other won 1 title in 11 years with the franchise that drafted him. Also won when they came back to that franchise when they had 2 other stars and had to get a guy suspended for that to happen when they were favorite at the beginning of the season to win it all.

You’re not measuring how good the player was you’re measuring how good the franchise was at building around the player.
If that’s the measure of greatness than who cares about Mj or lebron they are both pathetic compared to bill Russell and the dynasty that was built around him

I am measuring how good they are. An all time great isn’t leaving the franchise that drafted them without leading them to a title and they sure as hell win more than 1 title in 11 for that franchise.
Bill Walton won as many in shorter time. So did Isiah and Hakeem and they aren’t even considered top 5-7 all time.