Aaron Gordon - In or Out?

[Bensational]

I'd be fine with Culver + #17 if it meant we could come away with two of:

Lewis/Maxey/Nesmith/Green/Pokusevski.

[tiderulz]

What would you'll think of a AG+ #45 for Culver + #17 + James Johnson?

I like the trade.... they get to keep the #2 and take a player like edwards/ball and add an athletic big that will be great next to Kat.

We get Culver.... who Underperformed in his first season... but gives us a lot of what we need when he hits potential... and then another pick in a mid round quality draft that we can take a huge swing at.... and James Johnson who will be a suitable fill in for AG for the year and will give us cap relief the following offseason.

I would do it just for a change. and with 15 and 17, should hopefully hit on something.

[The Real Dalic]

What would you'll think of a AG+ #45 for Culver + #17 + James Johnson?

I like the trade.... they get to keep the #2 and take a player like edwards/ball and add an athletic big that will be great next to Kat.

We get Culver.... who Underperformed in his first season... but gives us a lot of what we need when he hits potential... and then another pick in a mid round quality draft that we can take a huge swing at.... and James Johnson who will be a suitable fill in for AG for the year and will give us cap relief the following offseason.

It's not that bad to me. But more as a last resort type of thing. Also a "we're completely done with AG" type of thing. Otherwise, just keep AG.

[Rainwater]

Why would we trade Vuc for Hayward? I would rather try to pair them up than trade them for each other. I also wouldn't mind getting Hayward AND Westbrook.

I understand a Hayward trade would be for salary cap purposes but I completely agree I would love a big three of Hayward, Vuc, and Westbrook. And I would love to somehow keep AG in such a case. But this would be a dream.

[Hogified05]

Why are we trying to move up in a terrible draft? Only we would.

I still think I would be calling Denver until their GM put a restraining order on me. Porter for Gordon makes so much sense for both teams. Gordon give them a body to throw at Bron and would know his role and flourish behind Jokic and Murray. Porter can let his wings spread and become that perimeter scorer we have always needed and Issac can hid his defensive liabilities when he gets back. I think both teams improve while both players improve their situation. However, I doubt Denver can be talked into it. We'd have to add more the trade and Denver probably covets him too much at this point.

I think Dallas would be a good landing spot for AG, Luka would provide him like 6 extra points a game. But Dallas has nothing I am interested in. The Bucks probably would do something to try and appease Giannis, but AG is a very poor man's Gainnis, but redundant.

There is nobody in this draft I'd move heaven and earth to move up for. Ball...no thanks. Wiseman? More long big man. We have our fill. Edwards...maybe..but he seems overrated. I don't see the point in moving up.

[fendilim]

Why are we trying to move up in a terrible draft? Only we would.

I still think I would be calling Denver until their GM put a restraining order on me. Porter for Gordon makes so much sense for both teams. Gordon give them a body to throw at Bron and would know his role and flourish behind Jokic and Murray. Porter can let his wings spread and become that perimeter scorer we have always needed and Issac can hid his defensive liabilities when he gets back. I think both teams improve while both players improve their situation. However, I doubt Denver can be talked into it. We'd have to add more the trade and Denver probably covets him too much at this point.

I think Dallas would be a good landing spot for AG, Luka would provide him like 6 extra points a game. But Dallas has nothing I am interested in. The Bucks probably would do something to try and appease Giannis, but AG is a very poor man's Gainnis, but redundant.

There is nobody in this draft I'd move heaven and earth to move up for. Ball...no thanks. Wiseman? More long big man. We have our fill. Edwards...maybe..but he seems overrated. I don't see the point in moving up.

Porter is worth a lot more than AG. And they have Grant to try at Lebron.

[tiderulz]

Why are we trying to move up in a terrible draft? Only we would.

I still think I would be calling Denver until their GM put a restraining order on me. Porter for Gordon makes so much sense for both teams. Gordon give them a body to throw at Bron and would know his role and flourish behind Jokic and Murray. Porter can let his wings spread and become that perimeter scorer we have always needed and Issac can hid his defensive liabilities when he gets back. I think both teams improve while both players improve their situation. However, I doubt Denver can be talked into it. We'd have to add more the trade and Denver probably covets him too much at this point.

I think Dallas would be a good landing spot for AG, Luka would provide him like 6 extra points a game. But Dallas has nothing I am interested in. The Bucks probably would do something to try and appease Giannis, but AG is a very poor man's Gainnis, but redundant.

There is nobody in this draft I'd move heaven and earth to move up for. Ball...no thanks. Wiseman? More long big man. We have our fill. Edwards...maybe..but he seems overrated. I don't see the point in moving up.

Porter is worth a lot more than AG. And they have Grant to try at Lebron.

yeah, Denver isnt touching that. They can teach Porter defense, and he would have size and length over AG. plus he can shoot and is under low price control for quite a few years

[Rainwater]

Why are we trying to move up in a terrible draft? Only we would.

I still think I would be calling Denver until their GM put a restraining order on me. Porter for Gordon makes so much sense for both teams. Gordon give them a body to throw at Bron and would know his role and flourish behind Jokic and Murray. Porter can let his wings spread and become that perimeter scorer we have always needed and Issac can hid his defensive liabilities when he gets back. I think both teams improve while both players improve their situation. However, I doubt Denver can be talked into it. We'd have to add more the trade and Denver probably covets him too much at this point.

I think Dallas would be a good landing spot for AG, Luka would provide him like 6 extra points a game. But Dallas has nothing I am interested in. The Bucks probably would do something to try and appease Giannis, but AG is a very poor man's Gainnis, but redundant.

There is nobody in this draft I'd move heaven and earth to move up for. Ball...no thanks. Wiseman? More long big man. We have our fill. Edwards...maybe..but he seems overrated. I don't see the point in moving up.

Porter is worth a lot more than AG. And they have Grant to try at Lebron.

yeah, Denver isnt touching that. They can teach Porter defense, and he would have size and length over AG. plus he can shoot and is under low price control for quite a few years

Yeah, no shot Denver is letting Porter go for AG. Denver has a bright future, could be the best team in the league in the near future, no way I see them screwing that up for AG.

[pepe1991]

Grant is FA, Porter is on rookie scale, uber cheap contract making like $3M a year.
SO yea, not gonna happen. If Magic wanted that type of deal, they had to ask last year to get Millsap+ Porter and send Evan and Gordon ( only way how salaries would work)

[drsd]

What would you'll think of a AG+ #45 for Culver + #17 + James Johnson?

If one views that Culver has more value than Vassell and Nesmith, then this is a good trade.

Not sure what Orlando would do with both the #15 and #17. If they could be packed, say with Birch, to move up to #12 to draft Nesmith, then this is a really interesting way to build the SG depth of the future. (Culver would be Fournier's eventual replacement and Nesmith would be Ross' eventual replacement).

In the 2021 off-season, Fournier and Johnson's salaries combine for a max-level contract to find an Ace SF to flush out the roster.


..

[Howard Cosell]

Culver and 17 for Gordon?

Nah. You guys are overvaluing Gordon on the trade market by quite a bit. Johnson + 17 for Gordon is doable. Gordon is not going to get you back a mid first round pick and last years 6th pick overall coming off his first year.

Orlando’s 15 + Gordon to move up into a lottery pick has some potential.

[basketballRob]

Culver and 17 for Gordon?

Nah. You guys are overvaluing Gordon on the trade market by quite a bit. Johnson + 17 for Gordon is doable. Gordon is not going to get you back a mid first round pick and last years 6th pick overall coming off his first year.

Orlando’s 15 + Gordon to move up into a lottery pick has some potential.

If Atlanta gives Minnesota the 6th pick for Culver and the 17. Then you could trade JJ and the 6th for AG and the 15.

It just depends on what Atlanta wants, either AG and the 15 or Culver and the 17.

Sent from my SM-G950U using RealGM mobile app

[yoyojw17]

Culver and 17 for Gordon?

Nah. You guys are overvaluing Gordon on the trade market by quite a bit. Johnson + 17 for Gordon is doable. Gordon is not going to get you back a mid first round pick and last years 6th pick overall coming off his first year.

Orlando’s 15 + Gordon to move up into a lottery pick has some potential.

It's all in the eye of the beholder. For me ... their ability to project AG's role and contribution of the team could definitely be much higher than you think. I see AG as an athletic and multi dimensional player that will fit in great next to KAT. When plays within himself he has shown to be the best version of himself. and with clear offensive weapons in DLo and KAT... he will for sure slot in as #3... maybe even #4 option depending on who they take with the #1 pick or any form of trade they can make.

So you're entitled as always to your opinion... but this is also how value pickups occur... when you can identify and pluck players off of teams and lineups that they are underutilized, misused,not properly constructed, and put them into situations that allow them to flourish.

Culver is a great piece and is still a gamble to a certain degree... there are no guarantees with him either... and according to many, this is such a weak draft.... which is also an... "in the eyes of the beholder" type situation.

And if minnesota wanted to trade down and pick up a player like Okoro... a player with 2 way potential... that will slot in well. Add in another quality player (SG or PG)within the trade or free agency... they can make total shift for this next season.

[pepe1991]

Gordon on better team won't be " multidimensional" or used in that fashion.
He will be corner 3, play defense, pass to first ballhandler in sight type player. Pick&roll screening from time to time.

Gordon's days of highjacking offense with idiotic fadeaway 2s outside old Orlando ( or few other teams that main goal of a season is to suck) are numbered.

Those are his career numbers on team that sucked for 4 of 6 years he was part of:
12,8 ppg
6,4 rpg
2,4 apg
0,6 blocks
44,8% FG
31,9% for 3
70% FTs

53% TS
0,9 win share
0,0 BPM

He flat out does not deserve bigger role. Only reason why he has his 21% usage rate and 11 shots a game ( that at one point was 15 shots a game) is because Orlando never had clear 1# and 2# option to push him to his 3rd to 4th option he should be.

Magic tried to make him look like a star, there was a season where they force fed him into "star" role on 15 shots a night, guy averaged 17 points on horrific efficiency. it got so bad that he was 11# "best" Magic player by TS% and 8th by win share. His RPM was closer to Hezonja's than to Payton who was just 3rd in RPM on same team. It was complete disaster.

Main issue with Gordon trades is simple. $18M a year for 3rd to 4th option. Most contenders don't have $18M to shave that wuold in same time satisfy Magic.
For same reasons market for Myles Turner is dry. It's not like he is bad player, he is solid one, just like Gordon ( even year younger) but nobody wants to pay average starter $18M for being painfully-average.

[basketballRob]

Once Gordon gets away from selfish players like Fournier he'll be much better. Fournier is a cone on defense and will only pass it to other European players.

Sent from my SM-G950U using RealGM mobile app

[yoyojw17]

Gordon on better team won't be " multidimensional" or used in that fashion.
He will be corner 3, play defense, pass to first ballhandler in sight type player. Pick&roll screening from time to time.

Gordon's days of highjacking offense with idiotic fadeaway 2s outside old Orlando ( or few other teams that main goal of a season is to suck) are numbered.

Those are his career numbers on team that sucked for 4 of 6 years he was part of:
12,8 ppg
6,4 rpg
2,4 apg
0,6 blocks
44,8% FG
31,9% for 3
70% FTs

53% TS
0,9 win share
0,0 BPM

He flat out does not deserve bigger role. Only reason why he has his 21% usage rate and 11 shots a game ( that at one point was 15 shots a game) is because Orlando never had clear 1# and 2# option to push him to his 3rd to 4th option he should be.

Magic tried to make him look like a star, there was a season where they force fed him into "star" role on 15 shots a night, guy averaged 17 points on horrific efficiency. it got so bad that he was 11# "best" Magic player by TS% and 8th by win share. His RPM was closer to Hezonja's than to Payton who was just 3rd in RPM on same team. It was complete disaster.

Main issue with Gordon trades is simple. $18M a year for 3rd to 4th option. Most contenders don't have $18M to shave that wuold in same time satisfy Magic.
For same reasons market for Myles Turner is dry. It's not like he is bad player, he is solid one, just like Gordon ( even year younger) but nobody wants to pay average starter $18M for being painfully-average.

You can throw out as many stats as you can feel like inorder to make your point.... but I never said to give him a bigger role... I discussed giving him a much more defined role on a better team. It's not that he needs the ball in his hand more... It's that he needs to focus on the things that he does well and not trying to be more than he can possibly be on a nightly basis... and that's his road to success.

and guess what... he had done that at the end of the last two seasons after spending the first half of those seasons trying to fill those "star roles" you discussed.

2019-2020 Post Allstar Break
15.4 pnt
8.9 reb
5.7 ast
1.2 blk
1.0 steals
48.7% shooting on 11.7 shots

2018-2019 Post Allstar Break
16.5 pnt
7.5 reb
4.1 ast
.9 blk
.7 steals
45.8% shooting on 13.9 shots
36.5% from 3 shooting 4.5 shots

Let's not act like those numbers are so easy for so many to achieve. And it's not by chance... because... anyone that watched him play could see his difference in mentality. So yes... being placed in a position where... he is needed to rebound and sprint the floor... take the open three... cut to the basket.... offensive rebound ... make the right play.... play the best defense that he can... YES... i believe he can be of great value to another team that can help define his role.

but as always... to each their own.

[fendilim]

Gordon on better team won't be " multidimensional" or used in that fashion.
He will be corner 3, play defense, pass to first ballhandler in sight type player. Pick&roll screening from time to time.

Gordon's days of highjacking offense with idiotic fadeaway 2s outside old Orlando ( or few other teams that main goal of a season is to suck) are numbered.

Those are his career numbers on team that sucked for 4 of 6 years he was part of:
12,8 ppg
6,4 rpg
2,4 apg
0,6 blocks
44,8% FG
31,9% for 3
70% FTs

53% TS
0,9 win share
0,0 BPM

He flat out does not deserve bigger role. Only reason why he has his 21% usage rate and 11 shots a game ( that at one point was 15 shots a game) is because Orlando never had clear 1# and 2# option to push him to his 3rd to 4th option he should be.

Magic tried to make him look like a star, there was a season where they force fed him into "star" role on 15 shots a night, guy averaged 17 points on horrific efficiency. it got so bad that he was 11# "best" Magic player by TS% and 8th by win share. His RPM was closer to Hezonja's than to Payton who was just 3rd in RPM on same team. It was complete disaster.

Main issue with Gordon trades is simple. $18M a year for 3rd to 4th option. Most contenders don't have $18M to shave that wuold in same time satisfy Magic.
For same reasons market for Myles Turner is dry. It's not like he is bad player, he is solid one, just like Gordon ( even year younger) but nobody wants to pay average starter $18M for being painfully-average.

You can throw out as many stats as you can feel like inorder to make your point.... but I never said to give him a bigger role... I discussed giving him a much more defined role on a better team. It's not that he needs the ball in his hand more... It's that he needs to focus on the things that he does well and not trying to be more than he can possibly be on a nightly basis... and that's his road to success.

and guess what... he had done that at the end of the last two seasons after spending the first half of those seasons trying to fill those "star roles" you discussed.

2019-2020 Post Allstar Break
15.4 pnt
8.9 reb
5.7 ast
1.2 blk
1.0 steals
48.7% shooting on 11.7 shots

2018-2019 Post Allstar Break
16.5 pnt
7.5 reb
4.1 ast
.9 blk
.7 steals
45.8% shooting on 13.9 shots
36.5% from 3 shooting 4.5 shots

Let's not act like those numbers are so easy for so many to achieve. And it's not by chance... because... anyone that watched him play could see his difference in mentality. So yes... being placed in a position where... he is needed to rebound and sprint the floor... take the open three... cut to the basket.... offensive rebound ... make the right play.... play the best defense that he can... YES... i believe he can be of great value to another team that can help define his role.

but as always... to each their own.

that’s the thing with Gordon though, he knows he is a much better player in a limited role, but he does more than what is asked of him.

And this isnt only the last two years, this has been a reported problem even before his second contract.

Gordon is simply delusional.

[drsd]

Just two years ago we were all having a serious discussion about Gordon's request for a max deal. Now we are trying to unload his declining contract.

Amazing.

[pepe1991]

Gordon on better team won't be " multidimensional" or used in that fashion.
He will be corner 3, play defense, pass to first ballhandler in sight type player. Pick&roll screening from time to time.

Gordon's days of highjacking offense with idiotic fadeaway 2s outside old Orlando ( or few other teams that main goal of a season is to suck) are numbered.

Those are his career numbers on team that sucked for 4 of 6 years he was part of:
12,8 ppg
6,4 rpg
2,4 apg
0,6 blocks
44,8% FG
31,9% for 3
70% FTs

53% TS
0,9 win share
0,0 BPM

He flat out does not deserve bigger role. Only reason why he has his 21% usage rate and 11 shots a game ( that at one point was 15 shots a game) is because Orlando never had clear 1# and 2# option to push him to his 3rd to 4th option he should be.

Magic tried to make him look like a star, there was a season where they force fed him into "star" role on 15 shots a night, guy averaged 17 points on horrific efficiency. it got so bad that he was 11# "best" Magic player by TS% and 8th by win share. His RPM was closer to Hezonja's than to Payton who was just 3rd in RPM on same team. It was complete disaster.

Main issue with Gordon trades is simple. $18M a year for 3rd to 4th option. Most contenders don't have $18M to shave that wuold in same time satisfy Magic.
For same reasons market for Myles Turner is dry. It's not like he is bad player, he is solid one, just like Gordon ( even year younger) but nobody wants to pay average starter $18M for being painfully-average.

You can throw out as many stats as you can feel like inorder to make your point.... but I never said to give him a bigger role... I discussed giving him a much more defined role on a better team. It's not that he needs the ball in his hand more... It's that he needs to focus on the things that he does well and not trying to be more than he can possibly be on a nightly basis... and that's his road to success.

and guess what... he had done that at the end of the last two seasons after spending the first half of those seasons trying to fill those "star roles" you discussed.

2019-2020 Post Allstar Break
15.4 pnt
8.9 reb
5.7 ast
1.2 blk
1.0 steals
48.7% shooting on 11.7 shots

2018-2019 Post Allstar Break
16.5 pnt
7.5 reb
4.1 ast
.9 blk
.7 steals
45.8% shooting on 13.9 shots
36.5% from 3 shooting 4.5 shots

Let's not act like those numbers are so easy for so many to achieve. And it's not by chance... because... anyone that watched him play could see his difference in mentality. So yes... being placed in a position where... he is needed to rebound and sprint the floor... take the open three... cut to the basket.... offensive rebound ... make the right play.... play the best defense that he can... YES... i believe he can be of great value to another team that can help define his role.

but as always... to each their own.

Context:
2018-19 number of pre allstar games : 55
2018-19 number of post allstar games : 23

2019-20 : number of pre allstar games: 49
2019-20: number of post allstar games: 13


Adding more context: 2018-19 post allstar games Magic faced in 13 out of 23 games teams that are indeed -tanking or missing playoffs.

2019-20, Magic in 8 of last 13 games he faced played against either tanking teams or teams that have below .500 record, including 5 games against Hawks, Minessota and whatever was at that point left from Brooklyn. Stelth tankers of Sacramento and San Antonio.
Even more indicative is fact that out of 13 games he played, Magic actually didn't face any top tear team such as : Lakers, Clippers, Nuggets, Celtics or Bucks and they in fact only played Raptors from teams that actually made it to second round of playoffs that year.

So you might read his games as " change in mentality" because that's what you want read from them. I could be very cold blooded and say you are reaching for things they are not there . He played better after allstar games because :
1) sample size you use are ultra limiting -36 games over 2 years
2) quality of opponents in that period is pathetic
3) teams flat out tank after allstar game and throw garbage out there on purpose

This is like that period of time when Payton would decide to stat pad after allstar break and chase his triple doubles ( assists that didn't help offense and already secured rebounds who could have been taken by any other Magic player). Payton is breaking out he even shot 37% three, just don't look at sample size. Goes back next year, same old garbage. 3 years later. Same old garbage.

[yoyojw17]

Gordon on better team won't be " multidimensional" or used in that fashion.
He will be corner 3, play defense, pass to first ballhandler in sight type player. Pick&roll screening from time to time.

Gordon's days of highjacking offense with idiotic fadeaway 2s outside old Orlando ( or few other teams that main goal of a season is to suck) are numbered.

Those are his career numbers on team that sucked for 4 of 6 years he was part of:
12,8 ppg
6,4 rpg
2,4 apg
0,6 blocks
44,8% FG
31,9% for 3
70% FTs

53% TS
0,9 win share
0,0 BPM

He flat out does not deserve bigger role. Only reason why he has his 21% usage rate and 11 shots a game ( that at one point was 15 shots a game) is because Orlando never had clear 1# and 2# option to push him to his 3rd to 4th option he should be.

Magic tried to make him look like a star, there was a season where they force fed him into "star" role on 15 shots a night, guy averaged 17 points on horrific efficiency. it got so bad that he was 11# "best" Magic player by TS% and 8th by win share. His RPM was closer to Hezonja's than to Payton who was just 3rd in RPM on same team. It was complete disaster.

Main issue with Gordon trades is simple. $18M a year for 3rd to 4th option. Most contenders don't have $18M to shave that wuold in same time satisfy Magic.
For same reasons market for Myles Turner is dry. It's not like he is bad player, he is solid one, just like Gordon ( even year younger) but nobody wants to pay average starter $18M for being painfully-average.

You can throw out as many stats as you can feel like inorder to make your point.... but I never said to give him a bigger role... I discussed giving him a much more defined role on a better team. It's not that he needs the ball in his hand more... It's that he needs to focus on the things that he does well and not trying to be more than he can possibly be on a nightly basis... and that's his road to success.

and guess what... he had done that at the end of the last two seasons after spending the first half of those seasons trying to fill those "star roles" you discussed.

2019-2020 Post Allstar Break
15.4 pnt
8.9 reb
5.7 ast
1.2 blk
1.0 steals
48.7% shooting on 11.7 shots

2018-2019 Post Allstar Break
16.5 pnt
7.5 reb
4.1 ast
.9 blk
.7 steals
45.8% shooting on 13.9 shots
36.5% from 3 shooting 4.5 shots

Let's not act like those numbers are so easy for so many to achieve. And it's not by chance... because... anyone that watched him play could see his difference in mentality. So yes... being placed in a position where... he is needed to rebound and sprint the floor... take the open three... cut to the basket.... offensive rebound ... make the right play.... play the best defense that he can... YES... i believe he can be of great value to another team that can help define his role.

but as always... to each their own.

Context:
2018-19 number of pre allstar games : 55
2018-19 number of post allstar games : 23

2019-20 : number of pre allstar games: 49
2019-20: number of post allstar games: 13


Adding more context: 2018-19 post allstar games Magic faced in 13 out of 23 games teams that are indeed -tanking or missing playoffs.

2019-20, Magic in 8 of last 13 games he faced played against either tanking teams or teams that have below .500 record, including 5 games against Hawks, Minessota and whatever was at that point left from Brooklyn. Stelth tankers of Sacramento and San Antonio.
Even more indicative is fact that out of 13 games he played, Magic actually didn't face any top tear team such as : Lakers, Clippers, Nuggets, Celtics or Bucks and they in fact only played Raptors from teams that actually made it to second round of playoffs that year.

So you might read his games as " change in mentality" because that's what you want read from them. I could be very cold blooded and say you are reaching for things they are not there . He played better after allstar games because :
1) sample size you use are ultra limiting -36 games over 2 years
2) quality of opponents in that period is pathetic
3) teams flat out tank after allstar game and throw garbage out there on purpose

This is like that period of time when Payton would decide to stat pad after allstar break and chase his triple doubles ( assists that didn't help offense and already secured rebounds who could have been taken by any other Magic player). Payton is breaking out he even shot 37% three, just don't look at sample size. Goes back next year, same old garbage. 3 years later. Same old garbage.

But there is an obvious change in his type of play in each of them. And it is that type of play that I am specifically referring to. SO YES.... small sample size or not... The narrative of post allstar game tanking or not....the correlation is obvious. That is the sole point of the conversation.

Not sure why so much effort is spent to devalue all of our player ...but yeah... apparently this entire team is "garbage" or has little to no value.... so i guess we're just up "S*** creek without a paddle".... once again... "To each their own"