Harden-watch 2020

Stone · Post #21 » by **Stone** » Tue Nov 17, 2020 12:25 am

"He wants a way to Brooklyn"

Prokorov · Post #22 » by **Prokorov** » Tue Nov 17, 2020 12:26 am

gigantes wrote:
I get that The Beard may be interested in teams like the Nets for good reason, but I don't see why the Nets shouldn't be highly skeptical of the fit and the number of core pieces (and picks?) we'd have to give up.

CMV! (change my view)

1) Harden is no worse of a fit then Levert/Dinwiddie. Levert/Dinwiddie are just (much much much) worse versions of harden. Both need the ball to be most effective. Of the three harden is by FAR the best off ball and the only one of the 3 who has actually played next to an elite high volume players for a full season (multiple in his case).

2) The nets "core pieces" are the role players of a 7/8 seed in a weak east. its not like we are trading the core of the 85 lakers or 86 celtics here. I know im hard on levert but come on now. none of those 3 are guys you let even make you PAUSE about tradinge for an in-prime MVP.

3) Harden has played with KD (both NBA/FIBA) and kyrie (FIBA/ProAM) and Jordan (FIBA).

In the end, no matter how akward the fit, when you put MVP calibur talent together it works. even if they just take turns in so, these are the 3 best iso players on the planet.

therealbig3 · Post #23 » by **therealbig3** » Tue Nov 17, 2020 1:14 am

Prokorov wrote:
gigantes wrote:
I get that The Beard may be interested in teams like the Nets for good reason, but I don't see why the Nets shouldn't be highly skeptical of the fit and the number of core pieces (and picks?) we'd have to give up.

CMV! (change my view)

1) Harden is no worse of a fit then Levert/Dinwiddie. Levert/Dinwiddie are just (much much much) worse versions of harden. Both need the ball to be most effective. Of the three harden is by FAR the best off ball and the only one of the 3 who has actually played next to an elite high volume players for a full season (multiple in his case).

2) The nets "core pieces" are the role players of a 7/8 seed in a weak east. its not like we are trading the core of the 85 lakers or 86 celtics here. I know im hard on levert but come on now. none of those 3 are guys you let even make you PAUSE about tradinge for an in-prime MVP.

3) Harden has played with KD (both NBA/FIBA) and kyrie (FIBA/ProAM) and Jordan (FIBA).

In the end, no matter how akward the fit, when you put MVP calibur talent together it works. even if they just take turns in so, these are the 3 best iso players on the planet.

I agree with you now actually, after being initially opposed for my own emotional reasons.

But I think the three egos in play here between Kyrie/Harden/Durant is definitely something that can be a problem if they were to play together. Playing for the Olympics is different, it's easier to co-exist when the goal is to represent your nation. And it's not YOUR team. Contracts, stats, reputation...that's all affected by what you do in the NBA, not in the Olympics, and that's why egos come into play. Harden has had issues playing next to Dwight, Paul, and Westbrook. Durant had issues playing next to Westbrook. Kyrie had issues playing next to LeBron.

In the case of Dinwiddie and Levert, yeah, they're much worse players that also need the ball in their hands, but there's a clear hierarchy where they WILL defer to Kyrie and Durant. Replacing them with Harden doesn't just replace their abilities, but it's also replacing their ego with Harden's. Can Kyrie defer to Harden and Durant without causing issues? He had problems deferring to LeBron. Can Harden defer to Kyrie when he's feeling it? Is Durant cool with being an off-ball player next to two of the biggest ball-stoppers in the league? He could very well be iced out for an entire quarter in some games.

It's much easier to keep role players in line than star players with big egos.

Prokorov · Post #24 » by **Prokorov** » Tue Nov 17, 2020 1:26 am

therealbig3 wrote:
But I think the three egos in play here between Kyrie/Harden/Durant is definitely something that can be a problem if they were to play together. Playing for the Olympics is different, it's easier to co-exist when the goal is to represent your nation. And it's not YOUR team. Contracts, stats, reputation...that's all affected by what you do in the NBA, not in the Olympics, and that's why egos come into play. Harden has had issues playing next to Dwight, Paul, and Westbrook. Durant had issues playing next to Westbrook. Kyrie had issues playing next to LeBron.

I think this is a valid point, but it doesn't really concern me for a few reasons:

1) Typically when these chemistry things become an issue its after a year or two. and we are kind of going all in for a 2 year window. And if we do need to blow it up after a few years, having 3 megastars to ship for a rebuild package and maybe keep 1 is a nice position to be in.

2) I dont think the dwight/paul comparisons are great. those guys werent buddy-buddy with Harden and long time off court friends that seeked to play with him. Kd/Kyrie/Jordan/Harden already like eachother. sure that can all change with egos but typically friends are more likely to avoid that. Westbrook and harden played together prior, but i dont think they were tight off court and their issues are more with the team choosing silas over lucas and less with eachother.

3) The "Worst case" isnt bad. worst case is all 3 hate each other and you need to pick 1 to keep and still have an in=prime star plus cap (after moving the others) plus whatever cents on the dollar they bring in. given the ceiling, risk-reward is great

4) Harden is super durable. the others less so. i think organically due to rest and mainteneance they will all see the touches they need

In the case of Dinwiddie and Levert, yeah, they're much worse players that also need the ball in their hands, but there's a clear hierarchy where they WILL defer to Kyrie and Durant. Replacing them with Harden doesn't just replace their abilities, but it's also replacing their ego with Harden's. Can Kyrie defer to Harden and Durant without causing issues? He had problems deferring to LeBron. Can Harden defer to Kyrie when he's feeling it? Is Durant cool with being an off-ball player next to two of the biggest ball-stoppers in the league? He could very well be iced out for an entire quarter in some games.

It's much easier to keep role players in line than star players with big egos.

I think it is actually the opposite. These guys are much more liekly to defer to their elite MVP friends to some role playing guy who has no business taking touches from them. Kyrie and lebron were not tight. kyrie didnt recruit lebron. they didnt decided to team up.

The other thing, your gonna see staggered minutes, and your gonna liekly see more possesions under nash/d'antoni. it is 100% within reason all of them can get 18-20+ shots a game.

Jordan doesnt need the ball. Harris is gonna be a floor spacer. the other 3 will play 30ish minutes. they likely see enough possesions for everyone to eat. look at the rockets under D'anyoni when chris paul came in. Paul is as high a usage Pg as you will find and hardens touches/usage went UP after that trade.

DarkXaero · Post #25 » by **DarkXaero** » Tue Nov 17, 2020 1:38 am

Read on Twitter

?s=20

Supposedly a reputable Houston based reporter (although more for MLB)

DarkXaero · Post #26 » by **DarkXaero** » Tue Nov 17, 2020 1:45 am

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/30332878/sources-houston-rockets-star-james-harden-focused-trade-nets

New article by Woj saying that Harden only wants Nets.

Read on Twitter

?s=21

Prokorov · Post #27 » by **Prokorov** » Tue Nov 17, 2020 1:58 am

DarkXaero wrote:https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/30332878/sources-houston-rockets-star-james-harden-focused-trade-nets

New article by Woj saying that Harden only wants Nets.

Read on Twitter
?s=21

welp if true then it doesnt matter what other teams can offer. its accomodate harden to the nets or keep him

Paradise · Post #28 » by **Paradise** » Tue Nov 17, 2020 2:09 am

Read on Twitter

Hello Brooklyn · Post #29 » by **Hello Brooklyn** » Tue Nov 17, 2020 2:12 am

Philly will not trade Simmons for Harden if Harden doesn't want to be there. Makes no sense. They could lose him in 2 years for nothing.

The question is does Houston want to trade him?

They already probably have to trade Westbrook. And likely go into the season with a circus with neither of their best players wanting to be there.

Instead they can rebuild and get a good draft pick.

The alternative is to trade Russ, keep Harden, flame out in the 1st round and then get less for him next off season.

DarkXaero · Post #30 » by **DarkXaero** » Tue Nov 17, 2020 2:13 am

Whether this happens or not, it's a pretty special feeling watching a top 5 player/MVP candidate force his way to the Brooklyn Nets to play with two other superstars who signed here in free agency. Who would have thought this could happen like even 2 years ago?

LOUiS-D · Post #31 » by **LOUiS-D** » Tue Nov 17, 2020 2:22 am

DarkXaero wrote:Whether this happens or not, it's a pretty special feeling watching a top 5 player/MVP candidate force his way to the Brooklyn Nets to play with two other superstars who signed here in free agency. Who would have thought this could happen like even 2 years ago?

I remember when it was flattering that Dwight wanted to get to Brooklyn to join DWill. This is something else. This is nba2k vibes right here. Combined 2 mvps, 3 championships, 11 all-nba first team appearances.

MrDollarBills · Post #32 » by **MrDollarBills** » Tue Nov 17, 2020 2:29 am

DarkXaero wrote:https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/30332878/sources-houston-rockets-star-james-harden-focused-trade-nets

New article by Woj saying that Harden only wants Nets.

Read on Twitter
?s=21

I'm not used to this. KD has definitely been tampering.

GTR11 · Post #33 » by **GTR11** » Tue Nov 17, 2020 2:30 am

Hello Brooklyn wrote:Philly will not trade Simmons for Harden if Harden doesn't want to be there. Makes no sense. They could lose him in 2 years for nothing.

The question is does Houston want to trade him?

They already probably have to trade Westbrook. And likely go into the season with a circus with neither of their best players wanting to be there.

Instead they can rebuild and get a good draft pick.

The alternative is to trade Russ, keep Harden, flame out in the 1st round and then get less for him next off season.

I'm on Twitter trolling bums.
How you been BK. We going to get him man. We going to win chips, dynasty baby. It's over, I'm so hyped right now. I'm trolling my duh nix fans too. They can't say damn word. They talking about they going to support NY and all in for NY winning :lol:

Prokorov · Post #34 » by **Prokorov** » Tue Nov 17, 2020 2:32 am

DarkXaero wrote:Whether this happens or not, it's a pretty special feeling watching a top 5 player/MVP candidate force his way to the Brooklyn Nets to play with two other superstars who signed here in free agency. Who would have thought this could happen like even 2 years ago?

If Kyrie retired tommorow he would have done more for the nets then any player since Dr. J

He would have gotten durant and harden here.

GTR11 · Post #35 » by **GTR11** » Tue Nov 17, 2020 2:33 am

This D12 thing wasn't as exiting as this one. We definitely going to get top 5 player this time for sure.

Prokorov · Post #36 » by **Prokorov** » Tue Nov 17, 2020 2:33 am

MrDollarBills wrote:
DarkXaero wrote:https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/30332878/sources-houston-rockets-star-james-harden-focused-trade-nets

New article by Woj saying that Harden only wants Nets.

Read on Twitter
?s=21

I'm not used to this. KD has definitely been tampering.

Harden isnt a free agent. so its not tampering

LOUiS-D · Post #37 » by **LOUiS-D** » Tue Nov 17, 2020 2:34 am

Hello Brooklyn wrote:Philly will not trade Simmons for Harden if Harden doesn't want to be there. Makes no sense. They could lose him in 2 years for nothing.

The question is does Houston want to trade him?

They already probably have to trade Westbrook. And likely go into the season with a circus with neither of their best players wanting to be there.

Instead they can rebuild and get a good draft pick.

The alternative is to trade Russ, keep Harden, flame out in the 1st round and then get less for him next off season.

There's been a long raging discussion about the Simmons fit. This isn't exactly the same as the Raps trading Derozan, but it aint that far off either. I haven't looked at the Philly board, but I'm guessing their fanbase would split close to 50/50 on a rental championship.

GTR11 · Post #38 » by **GTR11** » Tue Nov 17, 2020 2:35 am

Prokorov wrote:
DarkXaero wrote:Whether this happens or not, it's a pretty special feeling watching a top 5 player/MVP candidate force his way to the Brooklyn Nets to play with two other superstars who signed here in free agency. Who would have thought this could happen like even 2 years ago?

If Kyrie retired tommorow he would have done more for the nets then any player since Dr. J

He would have gotten durant and harden here.

Can't believe I agree with Prok. You 100 % right on this Prok. He made KD and Harden happen. Houston ain't going to make deal with Morey. Marks is a God.

Prokorov · Post #39 » by **Prokorov** » Tue Nov 17, 2020 2:38 am

I can see something like this:

Nets in:
Harden

Rockets in:
Levert
Prince
Philly 1st #19(via nets)
Nets 2022 first
Nets 2024 first
Magic 2021 first
Mavs 2023 first

Magic in:
Dinwiddie

Mavs in:
Allen

I think Levert + 5 firsts is enough for the rockets to save face.

therealbig3 · Post #40 » by **therealbig3** » Tue Nov 17, 2020 2:39 am

Yeah I mean, the main thing is Harden is under contract for 2 more years, if we ignore his player option (if he's still an elite player at that point, he'll opt out).

Houston is in no rush to trade him. However, if you wait til next season, you can't really shop around all that much, because everyone knows he's just a 1 year rental at that point, until he signs with the team he really wants.

Damn, it IS nice for an elite player to actually want to play with us...never mind 3 of them lol.