The Lebron Thread | 2021 & Offseason

[dcstanley]

I wonder what the market is for Tucker if the Rockets are blowing it up, he'd be an awesome fit.

[dreamshake]

Maybe I'm wrong but I'm just not scared at all of Brooklyn even if they get Harden. I feel like people are imagining the Warriors when in reality I think they're more comparable to the '11 Heat that were running out guys like Bibby & Turiaf along with 2 of their big 3 having less-than-ideal fit. The Warriors had that crazy cap spike and Steph's stupidly cheap contract which gave them both crazy top-end talent AND depth.

Brooklyn would be paying their big 3 like $115M and have $10M tied up in DeAndre Jordan. So they have 2 guards with largely overlapping skillsets who suck at defense and KD coming off an achilles injury with washed-up DeAndre Jordan and what else? Where is the defense coming from? I just don't see it being a recipe for success in the playoffs.

I mean, it's not like they had a lot of defense as it is. Jarrett Allen would be the only one they're shipping out that's a good defender.

They're just doubling down on what they have and will try to out-talent everyone. I'm not of the "championship or bust" mindset. If a team wins a ton of RS games and goes deep into the playoffs, that's a success. Most teams can't do that. And the fact that players like Kyrie, Durant, and Harden are interested in Brooklyn paves the way for stars down the line to look at Brooklyn as a legit free agent destination.

Never mind the fact that if they DO win a title by out-talenting everyone with the 2-3 year window that they have, there's no question they'll be major players in any sort of free agent market when they eventually get their cap space back again.

Brooklyn is building a winning culture right now, which is why they're attracting the big names while their cross-town rivals are an after thought this free agency. That's what getting players like Durant and Harden do for you, regardless of what they produce on the court...but talent usually wins out anyway, regardless of fit problems. The 2011 Heat still made the Finals pretty easily, and it took an epic chokejob for them to lose.

I mean generally I agree with your point about the championship or bust mentality, but come on. That team 100% would be championship or bust, lets be real. And we'll see, they may be building a winning culture, but there's an awful lot of potential for things to go the other way IMO. If it turns in to a giant mess of egos, fingerpointing and toxicity, their reputation has as much potential to go down as up. I mean we're talking about a guy that trashed a teammate on a burner account, a guy that couldn't co-exist with CP3 and a guy that wasn't content playing 2nd banana to LeBron that will be 3rd option now.

And yes Miami still made the Finals, but prime LeBron & Wade were also better than post-prime (and post-achilles) KD & Harden and Bosh was better suited as a 3rd banana than Kyrie.

[trickshot]

That's the opportunity cost. Schroder souldn't be your first call

We couldn't send out 3 1sts and 2 swaps for Jrue, so that was out

I would have loved Bogdan though, but not sure if Kuzma has more value than 2 years of DDV

Should we blow up 2021 FA plans now and go for 2022 (Cp3 ufa and Beal PO)

Who is left in 2021? Assuming Giannis, Jrue, Kawhi, and PG stay

Lowry
Dipo
Gobert
Derozan
Hayward
Conley

Many are maybes

Imo Lakers were gearing up to screw themselves over and have been rescued from another Kawhi situation. So many quality pieces they are/were ready to overlook or let walk just to maintain cap flexibility for one of the riskiest free agency classes in recent memory. Basically Giannis or Bust. Kawhi's knees would be worse, playoff p would be the same guy but a year older and the rest are a bunch of all stars.

If Lakers still want Giannis they can turn their attention to acquiring quality assets for when he demands a trade from Milwaukee

[dreamshake]

If Lakers still want Giannis they can turn their attention to acquiring quality assets for when he demands a trade from Milwaukee

Honestly I can't imagine any of LBJ/AD/Giannis want him to be a Laker. It would be as bad or worse than KD > GSW. It would hurt all 3 of their reputations no matter what they win and surely they know that. It seems like everybody from LBJ to Pelinka to Jeanie has been grooming AD to take the baton as "the guy" from LBJ. I think he's ok temporarily deferring alpha status to LBJ because he sees him as such a legend and mentor, but I can't imagine he'd be as willing to see the torch pass right by him to a younger guy, especially after helping them win a title. Especially not the guy that's winning some of the awards he probably feels like he deserves.

I think they'd be better off looking at guys like Beal or Dipo that roughly line up with AD's age and are really good but not quite good enough to challenge for alpha status.

[therealbig3]

Maybe I'm wrong but I'm just not scared at all of Brooklyn even if they get Harden. I feel like people are imagining the Warriors when in reality I think they're more comparable to the '11 Heat that were running out guys like Bibby & Turiaf along with 2 of their big 3 having less-than-ideal fit. The Warriors had that crazy cap spike and Steph's stupidly cheap contract which gave them both crazy top-end talent AND depth.

Brooklyn would be paying their big 3 like $115M and have $10M tied up in DeAndre Jordan. So they have 2 guards with largely overlapping skillsets who suck at defense and KD coming off an achilles injury with washed-up DeAndre Jordan and what else? Where is the defense coming from? I just don't see it being a recipe for success in the playoffs.

I mean, it's not like they had a lot of defense as it is. Jarrett Allen would be the only one they're shipping out that's a good defender.

They're just doubling down on what they have and will try to out-talent everyone. I'm not of the "championship or bust" mindset. If a team wins a ton of RS games and goes deep into the playoffs, that's a success. Most teams can't do that. And the fact that players like Kyrie, Durant, and Harden are interested in Brooklyn paves the way for stars down the line to look at Brooklyn as a legit free agent destination.

Never mind the fact that if they DO win a title by out-talenting everyone with the 2-3 year window that they have, there's no question they'll be major players in any sort of free agent market when they eventually get their cap space back again.

Brooklyn is building a winning culture right now, which is why they're attracting the big names while their cross-town rivals are an after thought this free agency. That's what getting players like Durant and Harden do for you, regardless of what they produce on the court...but talent usually wins out anyway, regardless of fit problems. The 2011 Heat still made the Finals pretty easily, and it took an epic chokejob for them to lose.

I mean generally I agree with your point about the championship or bust mentality, but come on. That team 100% would be championship or bust, lets be real. And we'll see, they may be building a winning culture, but there's an awful lot of potential for things to go the other way IMO. If it turns in to a giant mess of egos, fingerpointing and toxicity, their reputation has as much potential to go down as up. I mean we're talking about a guy that trashed a teammate on a burner account, a guy that couldn't co-exist with CP3 and a guy that wasn't content playing 2nd banana to LeBron that will be 3rd option now.

And yes Miami still made the Finals, but prime LeBron & Wade were also better than post-prime (and post-achilles) KD & Harden and Bosh was better suited as a 3rd banana than Kyrie.

I agree that there's potential for it to be a disaster too, but I also think that the fact that they WANT to play together also means that they've gotta know that they all need to sacrifice their touches and get everyone involved. There's no way they don't know that if they're actively pushing to be on the same team.

BTW, not getting along with CP3 isn't much of an indictment. He doesn't seem to get along with a lot of people.

[trickshot]

If Lakers still want Giannis they can turn their attention to acquiring quality assets for when he demands a trade from Milwaukee

Honestly I can't imagine any of LBJ/AD/Giannis want him to be a Laker. It would be as bad or worse than KD > GSW. It would hurt all 3 of their reputations no matter what they win and surely they know that. It seems like everybody from LBJ to Pelinka to Jeanie has been grooming AD to take the baton as "the guy" from LBJ. I think he's ok temporarily deferring alpha status to LBJ because he sees him as such a legend and mentor, but I can't imagine he'd be as willing to see the torch pass right by him to a younger guy, especially after helping them win a title. Especially not the guy that's winning some of the awards he probably feels like he deserves.

I think they'd be better off looking at guys like Beal or Dipo that roughly line up with AD's age and are really good but not quite good enough to challenge for alpha status.

It was always fool's gold. Giannis himself probably had no intention of forming such a team. There's a superteam and then there's super-duper-team.

[Mos_Heat]

Ok, I see what you're saying but I don't agree. Schroder was one of the more valuable players on the market. He wasn't going to be there forver. Given the Lakers' limited assets, I think it was smart to jump on him instead of waiting for someone better. Dinwiddie is going to cost more than Green/#28. Covington cost more Green/#28 (and he's not better than Schroder). Tucker could still be had for cheap and so could Hill.

But none of that really matters. You just don't like Schroder. I do, so we're obviously looking at it differently.

Yeah, I'd honestly prefer Schroder to Dinwiddie. Better 3pt shooter, better defender. Dinwiddie maybe slightly better as a 6th man, but Schroder is a better fit alongside LeBron/AD. And I think he'll be the starter - not backup. And agree they were never gonna be able to afford RoCo. And I think they can still get Tucker, but you don't prioritize 35yo PJ Tucker over Schroder - at least I wouldn't.

Roco would prolly be the best we could get but theres no way we xould have gotten him, schroder is a better fit than dinwiddie and we wouldnt have gotten him for that, covington would have been insane for us but that wasnt gonna happen

The only thing is im not sure about how hes passing and playmaking is, if hes good in pick and roll with AD we kind of hit a steal

On small guards not finishing games, um, vanvleet?

Van Vleet build like a truck and can guard almost 3 positions, cmon man

Solid defensice players are solid defensive players, he'll get mismatched at times but hes a better defender than rondo in the type of situation youre worried about

Strongly disagree

[nzahir]

We really couldn't have matched that for Bogdan?

Donte is a significantly better asset than Kuzma. What do the Lakers have?

Be happy you got Schroeder...though you could send Kuzma to my bulls

Fair

Kuzma, Cook/Mcgee and 2nds?

Not sure if enough

[nzahir]

That's the opportunity cost. Schroder souldn't be your first call

We couldn't send out 3 1sts and 2 swaps for Jrue, so that was out

I would have loved Bogdan though, but not sure if Kuzma has more value than 2 years of DDV

Should we blow up 2021 FA plans now and go for 2022 (Cp3 ufa and Beal PO)

Who is left in 2021? Assuming Giannis, Jrue, Kawhi, and PG stay

Lowry
Dipo
Gobert
Derozan
Hayward
Conley

Many are maybes

Lowrys the one to go after and would fit in so well. Doubt he leaves raptors now though.

I never really thought we had a chance at Giannis anyways

My eyes were on Jrue, Dipo, and Lowry

Jrue is likely out
Dipo who knows, may sign a deal with Indi this week for all I know

Lowry is great, even at his age, but would he leave the raptors?

Would I really give up a chance to get Ibaka, Gallo, or another nice player to save cap space for someone like Conley or DDR? Probably not, but what do I know

[Mos_Heat]

re 2021 FA:
With projected 112 millions for the cap, they have no chance for a max free agent. There also will be so much money that most role players will get overpaid

[dreamshake]

We really couldn't have matched that for Bogdan?

Donte is a significantly better asset than Kuzma. What do the Lakers have?

Be happy you got Schroeder...though you could send Kuzma to my bulls

Fair

Kuzma, Cook/Mcgee and 2nds?

Not sure if enough

It would have to have been at least Danny+Caruso for the Kings to consider it I think

[Mos_Heat]

We really couldn't have matched that for Bogdan?

Donte is a significantly better asset than Kuzma. What do the Lakers have?

Be happy you got Schroeder...though you could send Kuzma to my bulls

Fair

Kuzma, Cook/Mcgee and 2nds?

Not sure if enough

Kuzma, Green and a 1st would have been enough, imo. They could've throw highly protected 2027 1st rnder as well

[nzahir]

Donte is a significantly better asset than Kuzma. What do the Lakers have?

Be happy you got Schroeder...though you could send Kuzma to my bulls

Fair

Kuzma, Cook/Mcgee and 2nds?

Not sure if enough

Kuzma, Green and a 1st would have been enough, imo. They could've throw highly protected 2027 1st rnder as well

No chance in hell was I going to give all that up for Bogdan

You would basically rather have Bogdan than Kuzma, Schroeder, and our 2027 1st is what you are saying?

Green is worth a late 1st and expiring(s)

Bogdan isn't worth 2 1sts and Kuzma

He fetched DDV basically, that is all

[dreamshake]

Fair

Kuzma, Cook/Mcgee and 2nds?

Not sure if enough

Kuzma, Green and a 1st would have been enough, imo. They could've throw highly protected 2027 1st rnder as well

No chance in hell was I going to give all that up for Bogdan

You would basically rather have Bogdan than Kuzma, Schroeder, and our 2027 1st is what you are saying?

Green is worth a late 1st and expiring(s)

Bogdan isn't worth 2 1sts and Kuzma

He fetched DDV basically, that is all

If the 2 1sts are the 28th and "heavily-protected" and you're in win-now mode, Bogdan is worth Kuzma and 2 1sts. But I'd probably still prefer Donte if I was the Kings.

[Mos_Heat]

Fair

Kuzma, Cook/Mcgee and 2nds?

Not sure if enough

Kuzma, Green and a 1st would have been enough, imo. They could've throw highly protected 2027 1st rnder as well

No chance in hell was I going to give all that up for Bogdan

You would basically rather have Bogdan than Kuzma, Schroeder, and our 2027 1st is what you are saying?

Green is worth a late 1st and expiring(s)

Bogdan isn't worth 2 1sts and Kuzma

He fetched DDV basically, that is all

Nah, I'm just throwing scenarios. I think Green Kuzma 2020 1st is enough

[MyUniBroDavis]

Yeah, I'd honestly prefer Schroder to Dinwiddie. Better 3pt shooter, better defender. Dinwiddie maybe slightly better as a 6th man, but Schroder is a better fit alongside LeBron/AD. And I think he'll be the starter - not backup. And agree they were never gonna be able to afford RoCo. And I think they can still get Tucker, but you don't prioritize 35yo PJ Tucker over Schroder - at least I wouldn't.

Roco would prolly be the best we could get but theres no way we xould have gotten him, schroder is a better fit than dinwiddie and we wouldnt have gotten him for that, covington would have been insane for us but that wasnt gonna happen

The only thing is im not sure about how hes passing and playmaking is, if hes good in pick and roll with AD we kind of hit a steal

On small guards not finishing games, um, vanvleet?

Van Vleet build like a truck and can guard almost 3 positions, cmon man

Solid defensice players are solid defensive players, he'll get mismatched at times but hes a better defender than rondo in the type of situation youre worried about

Strongly disagree

Vanfleet is still 6ft lol

On rondo, rondo is a better help defender and at zone.

Schroder is 1000% a better man defender

[Mos_Heat]

Roco would prolly be the best we could get but theres no way we xould have gotten him, schroder is a better fit than dinwiddie and we wouldnt have gotten him for that, covington would have been insane for us but that wasnt gonna happen

The only thing is im not sure about how hes passing and playmaking is, if hes good in pick and roll with AD we kind of hit a steal

On small guards not finishing games, um, vanvleet?

Van Vleet build like a truck and can guard almost 3 positions, cmon man

Solid defensice players are solid defensive players, he'll get mismatched at times but hes a better defender than rondo in the type of situation youre worried about

Strongly disagree

Vanfleet is still 6ft lol

On rondo, rondo is a better help defender and at zone.

Schroder is 1000% a better man defender

Chris Paul too, but he guards wings frequently

[MyUniBroDavis]

Van Vleet build like a truck and can guard almost 3 positions, cmon man


Strongly disagree

Vanfleet is still 6ft lol

On rondo, rondo is a better help defender and at zone.

Schroder is 1000% a better man defender

Chris Paul too, but he guards wings frequently

So are you saying teams should just abandon players who guard primarily 1s and 2s? Keeping in mind schroder is a rondo replacement

[Mos_Heat]

Vanfleet is still 6ft lol

On rondo, rondo is a better help defender and at zone.

Schroder is 1000% a better man defender

Chris Paul too, but he guards wings frequently

So are you saying teams should just abandon players who guard primarily 1s and 2s? Keeping in mind schroder is a rondo replacement

I think players who can't guard multiple positions should not play heavy minutes for teams in title contention, unless these players are great on offense. Maybe Schroder can guard SGs, I personally doubt it. If he can that's a different story

[Joey Wheeler]

I just don't like this trade. I get that Schroders a better offensive player but I feel like this trade just goes against the whole synergistic aspect of team building where the less weaknesses you have, the greater the whole is than the sum of its parts. You can't switch anything with Schroder meaning every PNR has to be played with some kind of conventional scheme. I guess AD is the best player in the league at being able to dominate in every scheme but Schroders now an unnecessary flaw that he's gonna be forced to cover for on defense every single play when it's crunch time.

Will Schroder be making plays for LeBron and AD during crunch time? I doubt it. It doesn't seem like optimal allocation of ball time when it's nut-crunching time. At least we could've confidently said DG won't get targeted on either end. This trade just goes against what I think the evolving future metagame of basketball is and I'm not sure Schroder is a good enough player that to counterbalance his archetypal flaws.

I'll happily eat crow if I'm wrong but from what I've come to understand about the tactical evolution of the NBA this just doesn't pass the smell test to me. How are Schroders advanced numbers at his various stops? Have they been consistently positive like DGs?

Edit: Going back and reading one of the posts about his defensive numbers does make me feel a little better. I always had the sense from his Atlanta days vs the Cavs that he was an Avery Bradley type that looked pesky but didn't really suppress the other team's offense much at the end of the day. I guess he really is just peaking huh. Maybe it was the right move to do this for an over the hill DG, provided his defense is actually legit.

It's a terrible trade, you're sacrificing size (big time), defense and spacing. With it being Lebron's team, Schroeder's on-ball value is pretty much irrelevant, the offense will be controlled by Lebron all the time.

I'm not complaining though, as long as Lebron/AD are together and healthy the Lakers need to self-sabotage like this to make the league somewhat interesting.

I mean the way to look at it imo is

(Wesley matthews)? + schroder

Vs

Green + rondo

I think schroder is far better off ball than rondo is, but playoff rondo was wilding

Yeah, still a terrible trade. You're losing size, defense and proven experience at the highest level. What have Schroeder and Matthews ever proven deep in the playoffs?

With Lebron and AD on the roster you have both sides of the floor covered, no more heavy lifting needed. Just fill the roster with guys who can operate without the ball, have size and can't be exploited on either end of the court. A guy like Danny Green has shown he can be a valuable asset to championship teams in all sorts of contexts, why would you trade him for unknown quantities?