Bucks acquire Jrue Holiday - Trade done - Bucks 2022 to CLE unprotected

[Ill-yasova]

Wow I can't believe unprotected 2027. What the hell. The swaps are just completely over the top too.

'27 is the only one that really worries me.

The swaps should (hopefully) be irrelevant.

Yeah, the swaps only matter if Giannis walks, but we’d pretty much be screwed anyways at that point.

[Chuck Diesel]

Where is MD to scold Chicken Littles when it’s finally warranted?

[wallus]

Getting the two 2nd round picks makes it seem that they definitely have a plan to shape the rest of the roster which is encouraging.

[tedbrogen]

Wow I can't believe unprotected 2027. What the hell. The swaps are just completely over the top too.

'27 is the only one that really worries me.

The swaps should (hopefully) be irrelevant.

Yeah, the swaps only matter if Giannis walks, but we’d pretty much be screwed anyways at that point.

Exactly. Also, the league was fully aware the Bucks had to move Bledsoe and needed to improve the starting lineup around Giannis to entice him to stay. Every team the Bucks talked to had that leverage plus knowing Philly is also desperate to shake up their roster and also needed to improve their starting backcourt.

Luckily for the Bucks their dead weight, Bledsoe, has more value than Philly's dead weight, Horford.

[Brewhoopfan]

Watching a bit more of Jrue: I really like how he plays under control getting to the rim. I won't miss watching Bled leave his feet in the paint with no one to pass to. I especially won't miss defending with 4 against 5 after Bledsoe tries to recover from the 2nd row after another wild layup attempt.

[coolhandluke121]

I'm not even sure this does THAT much to ensure a title. I don't think they're any better than in 2019, for example. I don't even think they're much better than last year, as I don't think their bubble play was a good indication of their ability. I like quantity over quality in general, but it's not like Bogdan and Jrue are premium players and you still have to have some depth. When you trade this much depth for quality, let alone all the picks, you should be getting borderline all-NBA players.

Isn't the starting lineup going to be incredibly slow-footed on defense? I feel like that could be exploited and this squad might be better on paper than on the court. Giannis has to re-sign and bring some ring-chasers for this to be a decent trade.

Could not disagree more an quantity over quality. Playoff basketball is won with your top 7 guys, and minutes for your starters also increase in the playoffs. The Bucks biggest issue the last couple years was that their 9-11 guys were better than everyone elses, but they had clearly exploitable matchups in the starting five, or matches with Giannis that allowed the wall defense to be utilized.

Holiday and Bogdan is much, much, much better than Bledsoe and Wes. From an offensive versatility standpoint, from an offensive talent standpoint, and it's a better shooting duo as well even if not by a significant amount. I do not like losing Hill, although I think he is a strong candidate for regression.

We also need to talk about how badly Bledsoe has hurt us in playoffs. It's not a coincidence at this point, it's a clear trend. I do not have the same worries with Jrue and his on ball defense is just as good if not better.

I'll glady downgrade our 6-10 spots to clearly upgrade our 3rd and 4th best players. It's not even a discussion. If we want to debate the assets given up for Jrue, fine with that, but not the roster. It's CLEARLY more suited to win in the playoffs.

I misspoke. I meant to say "I generally like quality over quantity, but it's not like Bogdan and Jrue are premium players." That second clause doesn't even make sense as a follow-up to the first clause until you realize I just had quantity and quality backwards. I meant to acknowledge that quality is better than quantity in general, but I'm questioning whether Jrue is enough of a quality upgrade to justify the haul. That's the type of haul you give up for a perennial all-NBA candidate IMO. And like you said, you need 7-8 reliable guys in the playoffs and this just leaves 5 decent players. I'm optimistic they'll get some ring-chasers but until that happens and Giannis re-signs, I'm not going to be able to begin to digest all those picks they gave up. And even when it does happen, I'm still going to be a Bucks fan when those picks come due and I think it's going to be a bad situation.

I stand by what I said about lacking team speed on defense though. They should be better suited for the playoffs if they get some good ring-chasers, but I see this as a major vulnerability that will be pretty easy to exploit.

[Wonka]

Watching a bit more of Jrue: I really like how he plays under control getting to the rim. I won't miss watching Bled leave his feet in the paint with no one to pass to. I especially won't miss defending with 4 against 5 after Bledsoe tries to recover from the 2nd row after another wild layup attempt.

His basketball IQ is what separates him from Bled. Under control is perfect to describe him in the half court. He just takes smarter, more efficient shots. Has a better looking jumper from everywhere on the court and can create his own looks in a way Bledsoe seemingly forgot how to do at points.

[ajb905]

'27 is the only one that really worries me.

The swaps should (hopefully) be irrelevant.

Yeah, the swaps only matter if Giannis walks, but we’d pretty much be screwed anyways at that point.

Exactly. Also, the league was fully aware the Bucks had to move Bledsoe and needed to improve the starting lineup around Giannis to entice him to stay. Every team the Bucks talked to had that leverage plus knowing Philly is also desperate to shake up their roster and also needed to improve their starting backcourt.

Luckily for the Bucks their dead weight, Bledsoe, has more value than Philly's dead weight, Horford.

Yeah but they went swimming with the sharks (Griffin) to get Jrue. They didn't lose their shirt on the Bogdan deal, so I don't buy that it was necessary to drop their pants because the league knew they wanted to move Bledsoe.

[tedbrogen]

Getting the two 2nd round picks makes it seem that they definitely have a plan to shape the rest of the roster which is encouraging.

Yep. I bet they plan to use as much of the MLE as possible on another shooter (Gallo?), presumably keep Pat C/Marvin/Korver if they are willing to accept the league minimum, go after some ring chasers, and check in on Baynes.

I am sure they were still scouting for that Indy pick in case it wasn't move, so they can use that to sort out the two seconds.

I also bet FMIII is called up to the regular roster for good and given a chance to earn the backup PG spot or at least being the third PG.

[coolhandluke121]

I'm not even sure this does THAT much to ensure a title. I don't think they're any better than in 2019, for example. I don't even think they're much better than last year, as I don't think their bubble play was a good indication of their ability. I like quantity over quality in general, but it's not like Bogdan and Jrue are premium players and you still have to have some depth. When you trade this much depth for quality, let alone all the picks, you should be getting borderline all-NBA players.

Isn't the starting lineup going to be incredibly slow-footed on defense? I feel like that could be exploited and this squad might be better on paper than on the court. Giannis has to re-sign and bring some ring-chasers for this to be a decent trade.

Idk how we traded a ton of depth. We literally traded all our PG and that's it. Ersan and DJ are nothings

It depends on whether you think DDV's and Hill's performance in the bubble was a fluke, but based on their play before that, I think they were arguably the most balanced, effective all-around back-up backcourt in the league. I think we took that for granted at times. Both of them deserved to be in the 6OTY conversation IMO but it wasn't their job to put up numbers I guess.

Obviously we know you don't need the kind of 11-deep stuff the Bucks were running last year, but I think it's fair to be a little worried about the 6-8 guys at this point.

[tedbrogen]

Yeah, the swaps only matter if Giannis walks, but we’d pretty much be screwed anyways at that point.

Exactly. Also, the league was fully aware the Bucks had to move Bledsoe and needed to improve the starting lineup around Giannis to entice him to stay. Every team the Bucks talked to had that leverage plus knowing Philly is also desperate to shake up their roster and also needed to improve their starting backcourt.

Luckily for the Bucks their dead weight, Bledsoe, has more value than Philly's dead weight, Horford.

Yeah but they went swimming with the sharks (Griffin) to get Jrue. They didn't lose their shirt on the Bogdan deal, so I don't buy that it was necessary to drop their pants because the league knew they wanted to move Bledsoe.

They had already moved Bledsoe before the Bogdan deal (at that point their lineup was Jrue/DDV/Midds/Giannis/Brook) and DDV probably has more value league-wide than we realize based on those advanced stats on him (especially for teams that are not concerned with having above average shooting at every position around one guy). I could see why a team that wasn't ready to compete would not want to be locked into Bogdan for four years at a high salary and would take a chance on swapping him for DDV on a rookie contract.

But yeah, Griffin is far superior GM to whoever is running the Kings. No doubt on that.

[GHOSTofSIKMA]

I'm not even sure this does THAT much to ensure a title. I don't think they're any better than in 2019, for example. I don't even think they're much better than last year, as I don't think their bubble play was a good indication of their ability. I like quantity over quality in general, but it's not like Bogdan and Jrue are premium players and you still have to have some depth. When you trade this much depth for quality, let alone all the picks, you should be getting borderline all-NBA players.

Isn't the starting lineup going to be incredibly slow-footed on defense? I feel like that could be exploited and this squad might be better on paper than on the court. Giannis has to re-sign and bring some ring-chasers for this to be a decent trade.

jrue, bogdan, middleton, even still lopez..... if they perform to expectations..... could be moved as a package or in 3 team deals for massive value. like literally if virtually anybody went on the market we could be in the discussion with those 4 available. we absolutely arent stuck if you can do 2 for 1s or 3 for 1s with players of that caliber. if this team doesnt win i could see us going all in again in that type of scenario for an all-nba guy

[tedbrogen]

I'm not even sure this does THAT much to ensure a title. I don't think they're any better than in 2019, for example. I don't even think they're much better than last year, as I don't think their bubble play was a good indication of their ability. I like quantity over quality in general, but it's not like Bogdan and Jrue are premium players and you still have to have some depth. When you trade this much depth for quality, let alone all the picks, you should be getting borderline all-NBA players.

Isn't the starting lineup going to be incredibly slow-footed on defense? I feel like that could be exploited and this squad might be better on paper than on the court. Giannis has to re-sign and bring some ring-chasers for this to be a decent trade.

Idk how we traded a ton of depth. We literally traded all our PG and that's it. Ersan and DJ are nothings

It depends on whether you think DDV's and Hill's performance in the bubble was a fluke, but based on their play before that, I think they were arguably the most balanced, effective all-around back-up backcourt in the league. I think we took that for granted at times. Both of them deserved to be in the 6OTY conversation IMO but it wasn't their job to put up numbers I guess.

Obviously we know you don't need the kind of 11-deep stuff the Bucks were running last year, but I think it's fair to be a little worried about the 6-8 guys at this point.

Agreed on the points on DDV and Hill (and 6-8 in the rotation). Although concerns on Hill regressing this season and his ability to stay healthy as he ages are also fair. Hill was out there late in games against the Heat missing wide open threes just like everyone else. He was never the same after the regular season injury. He three point shooting was awful the entire time in the bubble.

DDV while great on defense during the regular season looked completely lost in the playoffs. Plus, if DDV did not develop at least an average three point shot this off-season, he would actively be hurting their chances at a title. That's a lot of pressure to put on a guy during a shortened off-season. Not to mention, after the Bledsoe trade, DDV was the defacto starting SG. 6-8 depth had already disappeared prior to the Bogdan trade. That was upgrading one starting SG to another.

[tedbrogen]

I'm not even sure this does THAT much to ensure a title. I don't think they're any better than in 2019, for example. I don't even think they're much better than last year, as I don't think their bubble play was a good indication of their ability. I like quantity over quality in general, but it's not like Bogdan and Jrue are premium players and you still have to have some depth. When you trade this much depth for quality, let alone all the picks, you should be getting borderline all-NBA players.

Isn't the starting lineup going to be incredibly slow-footed on defense? I feel like that could be exploited and this squad might be better on paper than on the court. Giannis has to re-sign and bring some ring-chasers for this to be a decent trade.

Could not disagree more an quantity over quality. Playoff basketball is won with your top 7 guys, and minutes for your starters also increase in the playoffs. The Bucks biggest issue the last couple years was that their 9-11 guys were better than everyone elses, but they had clearly exploitable matchups in the starting five, or matches with Giannis that allowed the wall defense to be utilized.

Holiday and Bogdan is much, much, much better than Bledsoe and Wes. From an offensive versatility standpoint, from an offensive talent standpoint, and it's a better shooting duo as well even if not by a significant amount. I do not like losing Hill, although I think he is a strong candidate for regression.

We also need to talk about how badly Bledsoe has hurt us in playoffs. It's not a coincidence at this point, it's a clear trend. I do not have the same worries with Jrue and his on ball defense is just as good if not better.

I'll glady downgrade our 6-10 spots to clearly upgrade our 3rd and 4th best players. It's not even a discussion. If we want to debate the assets given up for Jrue, fine with that, but not the roster. It's CLEARLY more suited to win in the playoffs.

I misspoke. I meant to say "I generally like quality over quantity, but it's not like Bogdan and Jrue are premium players." That second clause doesn't even make sense as a follow-up to the first clause until you realize I just had quantity and quality backwards. I meant to acknowledge that quality is better than quantity in general, but I'm questioning whether Jrue is enough of a quality upgrade to justify the haul. That's the type of haul you give up for a perennial all-NBA candidate IMO. And like you said, you need 7-8 reliable guys in the playoffs and this just leaves 5 decent players. I'm optimistic they'll get some ring-chasers but until that happens and Giannis re-signs, I'm not going to be able to begin to digest all those picks they gave up. And even when it does happen, I'm still going to be a Bucks fan when those picks come due and I think it's going to be a bad situation.

I stand by what I said about lacking team speed on defense though. They should be better suited for the playoffs if they get some good ring-chasers, but I see this as a major vulnerability that will be pretty easy to exploit.

Besides Bledsoe and DDV what team speed did they lose defensively? Jrue can do everything Bledsoe did defensively but won't be unplayable on offense. DDV will be missed but unless he suddenly developed a league average three point shot, he was also unplayable on offense.

I would argue Jrue is a premium player as he is regarded as the best defensive guard in the league. While Bogdan is an elite catch and shoot guy. Both of those skills will help in the playoffs next season. But the best part is they are both also well rounded players who still do almost everything else average or better. They are replacing two guys who were elite defenders but below average offensively (in the context of Bud's offensive system and paired next to Giannis).

[raferfenix]

I could see Griffin asking for more and more as the Harden news came out too.

If Philly or Brooklyn acquire James Harden that makes the Bucks' path to a championship that much harder.

We had to strike with something big and clearly they decided Holiday was the guy.

[LedZepp007]

I really think that Harden, Durant, and Irving with a bunch of scrubs under a first year head coach would be a ****. That’s just my opinion.


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[Badgerlander]

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[Ron Swanson]

Really not worried about Giannis' "loyalty" and I never have been. He's never cared about his "brand" like all these beta AAU superstars do. The issue is obviously when this core ages (Bogdan is 28, Khris is 29 and Holiday and Brook are over 30) and you have little to no ammunition to upgrade the roster in 3-4 years when you still have prime years of Giannis. There's a path to do it, but it's gonna be a tricky tight rope to walk.

Eh, thats easy to say now that we completely reshaped the roster. Giannis doesn't care about his brand but he sure as sh*t cares about winning. If we just make small tweaks this offseason and don't land his preferred players, I'm not convinced he's signing the supermax. Bow out before the Finals again and I'd say its likely he's as good as gone. Glad we pushed all our chips.

Pretty easy to say when I've been consistently saying it for the past several years. Loyalty has never been the issue with a guy like him, and I'll be shocked if he decides otherwise.

[TD75]

Let's be honest here. The Bucks did not give all those picks just for a practically expiring contract in Jrue.

The Bucks gave all those picks in order to:
- Get rid of Bledsoe, who is an absolute nightmare next to Giannis (not just Bledsoe's fault, but it is irrelevant now).
- Get rid of Hill, who even though has been a big positive for the Bucks, his performance in the last playoffs has been quite bad. He is also at an age where you really have to worry about massive drops in performance/non sustainable performance.
- Add Jrue, who is a more versatile defender (and arguably a better defender) than Bledsoe, and can actually shoot. So, he is playable next to Giannis, will not fill the lanes with his presence and (most importantly for me) is a much better decision maker than Bledsoe.

Did the Bucks overpay? Absolutely.
Are the Pelicans laughing at the haul they got from the Bucks? Absolutely. I bet they can't believe it.
Did the Bucks have another option, considering the horrible choices their FOs made all those years? Absolutely not.

Every bad choice the FO made has a side effect even years later.

I have no idea how the Bucks are going to renew their roster 3 years from now and compete, even assuming Giannis stays.

I hope Jrue renews as well. The alternative would be horrible for the Bucks.

[coolhandluke121]

Besides Bledsoe and DDV what team speed did they lose defensively? Jrue can do everything Bledsoe did defensively but won't be unplayable on offense. DDV will be missed but unless he suddenly developed a league average three point shot, he was also unplayable on offense.

Wes isn't a sprinter but has much quicker feet on defense than Bogdan. DDV was very good in that regard. Hill was a very solid defender, notwithstanding his bubble disappearance, which I do concede was cause for concern going forward. Marvin was a very quick small-ball 4/5 type.

Withholding final judgement until I see what ring-chasers they can lure, but they'll have to do well in that department and get Giannis to extend to justify these trades.