Cavaliers 2020 Draft Discussion.

[tleikheen]

Speaking of the Cavs defense, it was trash long before Sexton and Garland came to Cleveland - at least 19 and 20 year old players typically improve on D.

But these two are never going to get taller and that's a big part of their defensive woes.The biggest concern is at the end of the day is if Love is moved ,Drummond is traded and TT is signed by a contender you might as get a polished scorer in Obi Toppin.He fits Cav's timeline much better.
Trades are happening now ,Cavs need draft picks and reclamation players like Exum. Starting with Harry Giles and Josh Jackson......

[Stillwater]

Speaking of the Cavs defense, it was trash long before Sexton and Garland came to Cleveland - at least 19 and 20 year old players typically improve on D.

But these two are never going to get taller and that's a big part of their defensive woes.The biggest concern is at the end of the day is if Love is moved ,Drummond is traded and TT is signed by a contender you might as get a polished scorer in Obi Toppin.He fits Cav's timeline much better.
Trades are happening now ,Cavs need draft picks and reclamation players like Exum. Starting with Harry Giles and Josh Jackson......

Obi is highly overrated as a nba player. His running and dunking will transfer in the open court but he severely lacks the dribble drive to be a first option and he does not defend the paint even though he maybe could but he has little interest or ability as a lateral mobile defender to cover for many of the current rosters issues.
Cavs draft Okoro or Okongwu barring some slide by Wiseman. And if all 3 are gone it means 1 of edwards or ball is the pick
Id bet toppin is a bust or fringe bust 6 times out of ten

[JonFromVA]

Speaking of the Cavs defense, it was trash long before Sexton and Garland came to Cleveland - at least 19 and 20 year old players typically improve on D.

But these two are never going to get taller and that's a big part of their defensive woes.The biggest concern is at the end of the day is if Love is moved ,Drummond is traded and TT is signed by a contender you might as get a polished scorer in Obi Toppin.He fits Cav's timeline much better.
Trades are happening now ,Cavs need draft picks and reclamation players like Exum. Starting with Harry Giles and Josh Jackson....

If all the vets are moved out, the Cavs might as well keep plucking 19 year olds in the draft and shooting for upside. There is no timeline until some of these young players prove themselves.

Height/length/wingspan is certainly useful on defense, but it does not determine whether a player can defend.

Both Sexton and Garland have pretty typical measurements for a PG, neither are tiny for the position. Both, but Garland especially was physically immature coming off an injury. As he gets stronger he won't be pushed around as easily. As for Collin, he primarily needs to learn where he's supposed to be on D, learn tendencies, and his athleticism should help him. Porter Jr has the measurables, but also has a long ways to go to learn how to defend. It's just how it is with young players.

[tleikheen]

Obi is highly overrated as a nba player. His running and dunking will transfer in the open court but he severely lacks the dribble drive to be a first option and he does not defend the paint even though he maybe could but he has little interest or ability as a lateral mobile defender to cover for many of the current rosters issues.
Cavs draft Okoro or Okongwu barring some slide by Wiseman. And if all 3 are gone it means 1 of edwards or ball is the pick
Id bet toppin is a bust or fringe bust 6 times out of ten

Apparently Obi isn't over rated by his projections by Bleacher Reports last draft and Locked on Cavs admitting that Cavs are looking at Obi Toppin being the pick. Toppin is going to facilitate KLove being shopped ,maybe Drummond being shopped and TT being able to look around at contending teams.
Cavs were the 29th defensive rated team last year WITH TT,KLove,and Drummond the front court. Toppin will have a better ceiling than all these guys will .Let the dominos fall......

[Stillwater]

Obi is highly overrated as a nba player. His running and dunking will transfer in the open court but he severely lacks the dribble drive to be a first option and he does not defend the paint even though he maybe could but he has little interest or ability as a lateral mobile defender to cover for many of the current rosters issues.
Cavs draft Okoro or Okongwu barring some slide by Wiseman. And if all 3 are gone it means 1 of edwards or ball is the pick
Id bet toppin is a bust or fringe bust 6 times out of ten

Apparently Obi isn't over rated by his projections by Bleacher Reports last draft and Locked on Cavs admitting that Cavs are looking at Obi Toppin being the pick. Toppin is going to facilitate KLove being shopped ,maybe Drummond being shopped and TT being able to look around at contending teams.
Cavs were the 29th defensive rated team last year WITH TT,KLove,and Drummond the front court. Toppin will have a better ceiling than all these guys will .Let the dominos fall......

Never draft someone so you csn justify getting rid of equally ltd defensive players...
Hes overrated by everyone saying hes a top 5 prospect. He isnt not in this draft or a good one.
Id take either florida state prospect over him even though both project as 2w role players.
Hes trobb 2.0

[gflem]

Obi is highly overrated as a nba player. His running and dunking will transfer in the open court but he severely lacks the dribble drive to be a first option and he does not defend the paint even though he maybe could but he has little interest or ability as a lateral mobile defender to cover for many of the current rosters issues.
Cavs draft Okoro or Okongwu barring some slide by Wiseman. And if all 3 are gone it means 1 of edwards or ball is the pick
Id bet toppin is a bust or fringe bust 6 times out of ten

Apparently Obi isn't over rated by his projections by Bleacher Reports last draft and Locked on Cavs admitting that Cavs are looking at Obi Toppin being the pick. Toppin is going to facilitate KLove being shopped ,maybe Drummond being shopped and TT being able to look around at contending teams.
Cavs were the 29th defensive rated team last year WITH TT,KLove,and Drummond the front court. Toppin will have a better ceiling than all these guys will .Let the dominos fall......

To be fair Drummond was only around for what, 6 games. Not saying he would make a huge difference but the team was so severely undersized before he arrived. The mini-me guards, Tristan being a bit undersized at the five and Cedi being asked to play the four at times were contributing factors to the horrible D, as of course was KLove not being good on D, or happy for most of the season.
It would seem to make sense for the Cavs to draft a player that was able to play D at the college level, but that doesn't mean they will. Offense, dunks, and drafting the college player of the year will sell tickets. Hopefully that isn't part of the equation. I don't hate the idea of Toppin, but he isn't who I want to see drafted at 5 by the Cavs.
You say Toppin "severely lacks the dribble drive", and I won't argue but very few PFs have that ability as a first option. That's why so many teams look for a stretch 4, and of course to spread the floor for smaller players to drive. On the right team Toppin should thrive in the NBA, but I don't see the Cavs being the right team for him at this point, nor at any time in the near future.

[Stillwater]

Obi is highly overrated as a nba player. His running and dunking will transfer in the open court but he severely lacks the dribble drive to be a first option and he does not defend the paint even though he maybe could but he has little interest or ability as a lateral mobile defender to cover for many of the current rosters issues.
Cavs draft Okoro or Okongwu barring some slide by Wiseman. And if all 3 are gone it means 1 of edwards or ball is the pick
Id bet toppin is a bust or fringe bust 6 times out of ten

Apparently Obi isn't over rated by his projections by Bleacher Reports last draft and Locked on Cavs admitting that Cavs are looking at Obi Toppin being the pick. Toppin is going to facilitate KLove being shopped ,maybe Drummond being shopped and TT being able to look around at contending teams.
Cavs were the 29th defensive rated team last year WITH TT,KLove,and Drummond the front court. Toppin will have a better ceiling than all these guys will .Let the dominos fall......

To be fair Drummond was only around for what, 6 games. Not saying he would make a huge difference but the team was so severely undersized before he arrived. The mini-me guards, Tristan being a bit undersized at the five and Cedi being asked to play the four at times were contributing factors to the horrible D, as of course was KLove not being good on D, or happy for most of the season.
It would seem to make sense for the Cavs to draft a player that was able to play D at the college level, but that doesn't mean they will. Offense, dunks, and drafting the college player of the year will sell tickets. Hopefully that isn't part of the equation. I don't hate the idea of Toppin, but he isn't who I want to see drafted at 5 by the Cavs.
You say Toppin "severely lacks the dribble drive", and I won't argue but very few PFs have that ability as a first option. That's why so many teams look for a stretch 4, and of course to spread the floor for smaller players to drive. On the right team Toppin should thrive in the NBA, but I don't see the Cavs being the right team for him at this point, nor at any time in the near future.

Hes also overrated offensively being a 1 man show in college which wont happen in the nba without the handles he lacks etc.
Much of his success wont be as consistent in the nba unless he can blow past defenders instead of out athleteing the competition so to speak .
I wouldnt touch toppin until 16 or after assuming better prospect pool is depleted. I realize he will get looks in the lottery but he is not a superstar prospect that can get away with his glaring weakness's imo

[LivingLegend]

Apparently Obi isn't over rated by his projections by Bleacher Reports last draft and Locked on Cavs admitting that Cavs are looking at Obi Toppin being the pick. Toppin is going to facilitate KLove being shopped ,maybe Drummond being shopped and TT being able to look around at contending teams.
Cavs were the 29th defensive rated team last year WITH TT,KLove,and Drummond the front court. Toppin will have a better ceiling than all these guys will .Let the dominos fall......

To be fair Drummond was only around for what, 6 games. Not saying he would make a huge difference but the team was so severely undersized before he arrived. The mini-me guards, Tristan being a bit undersized at the five and Cedi being asked to play the four at times were contributing factors to the horrible D, as of course was KLove not being good on D, or happy for most of the season.
It would seem to make sense for the Cavs to draft a player that was able to play D at the college level, but that doesn't mean they will. Offense, dunks, and drafting the college player of the year will sell tickets. Hopefully that isn't part of the equation. I don't hate the idea of Toppin, but he isn't who I want to see drafted at 5 by the Cavs.
You say Toppin "severely lacks the dribble drive", and I won't argue but very few PFs have that ability as a first option. That's why so many teams look for a stretch 4, and of course to spread the floor for smaller players to drive. On the right team Toppin should thrive in the NBA, but I don't see the Cavs being the right team for him at this point, nor at any time in the near future.

Hes also overrated offensively being a 1 man show in college which wont happen in the nba without the handles he lacks etc.
Much of his success wont be as consistent in the nba unless he can blow past defenders instead of out athleteing the competition so to speak .
I wouldnt touch toppin until 16 or after assuming better prospect pool is depleted. I realize he will get looks in the lottery but he is not a superstar prospect that can get away with his glaring weakness's imo

Well it looks like its going to be the pick. Nearly every mock draft, insider, talking head is mocking Toppin at #5 if Deni is not there unless its a TON of smoke to draft somebody else, whoever that may be.

Im still 100% behind either Okongwu or Okoro. The Cavs dont need scoring help on offense, they can score just fine. They need defense and the staff has already came out MULTIPLE times and said they recognize they need to get better on defense.

I dont know how you say that and then go draft Toppin or Deni. Those comments should scream Okongwu or Okoro. I also feel a lot better about Okoro developing a respectable offensive game than I do Toppin developing into a plus defender.

[LivingLegend]

Obi is highly overrated as a nba player. His running and dunking will transfer in the open court but he severely lacks the dribble drive to be a first option and he does not defend the paint even though he maybe could but he has little interest or ability as a lateral mobile defender to cover for many of the current rosters issues.
Cavs draft Okoro or Okongwu barring some slide by Wiseman. And if all 3 are gone it means 1 of edwards or ball is the pick
Id bet toppin is a bust or fringe bust 6 times out of ten

Apparently Obi isn't over rated by his projections by Bleacher Reports last draft and Locked on Cavs admitting that Cavs are looking at Obi Toppin being the pick. Toppin is going to facilitate KLove being shopped ,maybe Drummond being shopped and TT being able to look around at contending teams.
Cavs were the 29th defensive rated team last year WITH TT,KLove,and Drummond the front court. Toppin will have a better ceiling than all these guys will .Let the dominos fall......

To be fair Drummond was only around for what, 6 games. Not saying he would make a huge difference but the team was so severely undersized before he arrived. The mini-me guards, Tristan being a bit undersized at the five and Cedi being asked to play the four at times were contributing factors to the horrible D, as of course was KLove not being good on D, or happy for most of the season.
It would seem to make sense for the Cavs to draft a player that was able to play D at the college level, but that doesn't mean they will. Offense, dunks, and drafting the college player of the year will sell tickets. Hopefully that isn't part of the equation. I don't hate the idea of Toppin, but he isn't who I want to see drafted at 5 by the Cavs.
You say Toppin "severely lacks the dribble drive", and I won't argue but very few PFs have that ability as a first option. That's why so many teams look for a stretch 4, and of course to spread the floor for smaller players to drive. On the right team Toppin should thrive in the NBA, but I don't see the Cavs being the right team for him at this point, nor at any time in the near future.

Im really interested to see what the Cavs plan with Drummond is. What they can get in a trade, ect.

I heard on Twitter that the Cavs want to aquire a 2nd lotto pick and draft Okoro, Im not sure if its possible to move Drummond for another late Lotto pick and potentially draft both

[Stillwater]

To be fair Drummond was only around for what, 6 games. Not saying he would make a huge difference but the team was so severely undersized before he arrived. The mini-me guards, Tristan being a bit undersized at the five and Cedi being asked to play the four at times were contributing factors to the horrible D, as of course was KLove not being good on D, or happy for most of the season.
It would seem to make sense for the Cavs to draft a player that was able to play D at the college level, but that doesn't mean they will. Offense, dunks, and drafting the college player of the year will sell tickets. Hopefully that isn't part of the equation. I don't hate the idea of Toppin, but he isn't who I want to see drafted at 5 by the Cavs.
You say Toppin "severely lacks the dribble drive", and I won't argue but very few PFs have that ability as a first option. That's why so many teams look for a stretch 4, and of course to spread the floor for smaller players to drive. On the right team Toppin should thrive in the NBA, but I don't see the Cavs being the right team for him at this point, nor at any time in the near future.

Hes also overrated offensively being a 1 man show in college which wont happen in the nba without the handles he lacks etc.
Much of his success wont be as consistent in the nba unless he can blow past defenders instead of out athleteing the competition so to speak .
I wouldnt touch toppin until 16 or after assuming better prospect pool is depleted. I realize he will get looks in the lottery but he is not a superstar prospect that can get away with his glaring weakness's imo

Well it looks like its going to be the pick. Nearly every mock draft, insider, talking head is mocking Toppin at #5 if Deni is not there unless its a TON of smoke to draft somebody else, whoever that may be.

Im still 100% behind either Okongwu or Okoro. The Cavs dont need scoring help on offense, they can score just fine. They need defense and the staff has already came out MULTIPLE times and said they recognize they need to get better on defense.

I dont know how you say that and then go draft Toppin or Deni. Those comments should scream Okongwu or Okoro. I also feel a lot better about Okoro developing a respectable offensive game than I do Toppin developing into a plus defender.

The stupid part is if any teams were going to go for toppin being a high level 2nd or 3rd option scorer on their non rebuild roster just wanting to add a cherry on top its gsw and they have been expecting to trade down for months.
Toppin might go 5 if cle moved up lol.
Otherwise its just vague feedback in a low info draft with Altman having 2 bigs on the block this season esp dre... I dont buy there is any real legitimacy to them having obi ahead of even Vassell or his teammate Williams let alone the Okoro Okonwu Wiseman club.
If for some reason they do take him the only justification us if theve traded klove for rudy gobert or something else unlikely

[Revenged25]

Apparently Obi isn't over rated by his projections by Bleacher Reports last draft and Locked on Cavs admitting that Cavs are looking at Obi Toppin being the pick. Toppin is going to facilitate KLove being shopped ,maybe Drummond being shopped and TT being able to look around at contending teams.
Cavs were the 29th defensive rated team last year WITH TT,KLove,and Drummond the front court. Toppin will have a better ceiling than all these guys will .Let the dominos fall......

To be fair Drummond was only around for what, 6 games. Not saying he would make a huge difference but the team was so severely undersized before he arrived. The mini-me guards, Tristan being a bit undersized at the five and Cedi being asked to play the four at times were contributing factors to the horrible D, as of course was KLove not being good on D, or happy for most of the season.
It would seem to make sense for the Cavs to draft a player that was able to play D at the college level, but that doesn't mean they will. Offense, dunks, and drafting the college player of the year will sell tickets. Hopefully that isn't part of the equation. I don't hate the idea of Toppin, but he isn't who I want to see drafted at 5 by the Cavs.
You say Toppin "severely lacks the dribble drive", and I won't argue but very few PFs have that ability as a first option. That's why so many teams look for a stretch 4, and of course to spread the floor for smaller players to drive. On the right team Toppin should thrive in the NBA, but I don't see the Cavs being the right team for him at this point, nor at any time in the near future.

Im really interested to see what the Cavs plan with Drummond is. What they can get in a trade, ect.

I heard on Twitter that the Cavs want to aquire a 2nd lotto pick and draft Okoro, Im not sure if its possible to move Drummond for another late Lotto pick and potentially draft both

Apparently in trade talks the only 2 players that are considered untouchable are Sexton and KPJ, at least prior to his recent legal issue. So maybe a trade involving Garland if it gets them Okoro is on the table?

[JonFromVA]

To be fair Drummond was only around for what, 6 games. Not saying he would make a huge difference but the team was so severely undersized before he arrived. The mini-me guards, Tristan being a bit undersized at the five and Cedi being asked to play the four at times were contributing factors to the horrible D, as of course was KLove not being good on D, or happy for most of the season.
It would seem to make sense for the Cavs to draft a player that was able to play D at the college level, but that doesn't mean they will. Offense, dunks, and drafting the college player of the year will sell tickets. Hopefully that isn't part of the equation. I don't hate the idea of Toppin, but he isn't who I want to see drafted at 5 by the Cavs.
You say Toppin "severely lacks the dribble drive", and I won't argue but very few PFs have that ability as a first option. That's why so many teams look for a stretch 4, and of course to spread the floor for smaller players to drive. On the right team Toppin should thrive in the NBA, but I don't see the Cavs being the right team for him at this point, nor at any time in the near future.

Im really interested to see what the Cavs plan with Drummond is. What they can get in a trade, ect.

I heard on Twitter that the Cavs want to aquire a 2nd lotto pick and draft Okoro, Im not sure if its possible to move Drummond for another late Lotto pick and potentially draft both

Apparently in trade talks the only 2 players that are considered untouchable are Sexton and KPJ, at least prior to his recent legal issue. So maybe a trade involving Garland if it gets them Okoro is on the table?

We can't trade Garland unless we're getting a PG that would fit better with Sexton somehow.

[Revenged25]

Im really interested to see what the Cavs plan with Drummond is. What they can get in a trade, ect.

I heard on Twitter that the Cavs want to aquire a 2nd lotto pick and draft Okoro, Im not sure if its possible to move Drummond for another late Lotto pick and potentially draft both

Apparently in trade talks the only 2 players that are considered untouchable are Sexton and KPJ, at least prior to his recent legal issue. So maybe a trade involving Garland if it gets them Okoro is on the table?

We can't trade Garland unless we're getting a PG that would fit better with Sexton somehow.

Maybe they think that Sexton can handle it at least as good as Garland did? Also who knows if that might not be the plan as well?

[jbk1234]

Obi is highly overrated as a nba player. His running and dunking will transfer in the open court but he severely lacks the dribble drive to be a first option and he does not defend the paint even though he maybe could but he has little interest or ability as a lateral mobile defender to cover for many of the current rosters issues.
Cavs draft Okoro or Okongwu barring some slide by Wiseman. And if all 3 are gone it means 1 of edwards or ball is the pick
Id bet toppin is a bust or fringe bust 6 times out of ten

Apparently Obi isn't over rated by his projections by Bleacher Reports last draft and Locked on Cavs admitting that Cavs are looking at Obi Toppin being the pick. Toppin is going to facilitate KLove being shopped ,maybe Drummond being shopped and TT being able to look around at contending teams.
Cavs were the 29th defensive rated team last year WITH TT,KLove,and Drummond the front court. Toppin will have a better ceiling than all these guys will .Let the dominos fall......

Counterpoint: It is not at all clear that the Cavs are good at scouting, drafting, or even able to identify which skill sets translate to the NBA.

Also, replacing one bad defender with another bad defender doesn't improve your defense.

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[jbk1234]

Apparently in trade talks the only 2 players that are considered untouchable are Sexton and KPJ, at least prior to his recent legal issue. So maybe a trade involving Garland if it gets them Okoro is on the table?

We can't trade Garland unless we're getting a PG that would fit better with Sexton somehow.

Maybe they think that Sexton can handle it at least as good as Garland did? Also who knows if that might not be the plan as well?

Sexton has had almost two full seasons to demonstrate that he can play PG. He put together an 8 game stretch in the later half of his second season where he looked like maybe he could. I'm giving him two months this season to show he can do that consistently. But you can't be a lead guard on a good team while posting only three assists per game and one of the worst DPRMs in the league. That player is a sixth man.



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[JonFromVA]

Apparently in trade talks the only 2 players that are considered untouchable are Sexton and KPJ, at least prior to his recent legal issue. So maybe a trade involving Garland if it gets them Okoro is on the table?

We can't trade Garland unless we're getting a PG that would fit better with Sexton somehow.

Maybe they think that Sexton can handle it at least as good as Garland did? Also who knows if that might not be the plan as well?

All signs are that the Cavs are still very high on both guards and in fact all their young players. If some other team valued one of those players highly maybe they'd do something, but the way they're perceived right now that seems highly unlikely.

[Revenged25]

We can't trade Garland unless we're getting a PG that would fit better with Sexton somehow.

Maybe they think that Sexton can handle it at least as good as Garland did? Also who knows if that might not be the plan as well?

All signs are that the Cavs are still very high on both guards and in fact all their young players. If some other team valued one of those players highly maybe they'd do something, but the way they're perceived right now that seems highly unlikely.

Oh I agree. I think it's more of a, if the Cavs can get a lotto pick for Okoro/Okongwu then they'll have Garland available, but I don't think he's available just for any trade.

[Stillwater]

Not buying there is much dg interest however he is represented by Klutch who could be pushing for a move for their client.
I mean Sexton hasnt proven he can run a bad team but he shown he can score a high level on or off ball in the past 2 seasons and the pairing is not good nor expecting to be defensively do it is very possible cle wants Ball or Haliburton hell maybe Hampton who they worked out as all 3 seen as better passers and better sized for defender upside despite only haliburton showing that he understands defensive assignments etc either way all could play next to Sexton or Kpj better than dg.
On the other hand if they are impressed enough with Sextons on ball and passing flashes it could push dg to the bench this season which would not be good for his development.
I could see dg moved to Detroit or possibly CHA.
But more likely the interest if any is frim Klutch pushing him out.
Id rsther see what they got with him at least this season and see what happens but i mean if you can walk away with Okoro or even 1 of the true pgs and Okongwu for Garland im down.

[jbk1234]

Not buying there is much dg interest however he is represented by Klutch who could be pushing for a move for their client.
I mean Sexton hasnt proven he can run a bad team but he shown he can score a high level on or off ball in the past 2 seasons and the pairing is not good nor expecting to be defensively do it is very possible cle wants Ball or Haliburton hell maybe Hampton who they worked out as all 3 seen as better passers and better sized for defender upside despite only haliburton showing that he understands defensive assignments etc either way all could play next to Sexton or Kpj better than dg.
On the other hand if they are impressed enough with Sextons on ball and passing flashes it could push dg to the bench this season which would not be good for his development.
I could see dg moved to Detroit or possibly CHA.
But more likely the interest if any is frim Klutch pushing him out.
Id rsther see what they got with him at least this season and see what happens but i mean if you can walk away with Okoro or even 1 of the true pgs and Okongwu for Garland im down.

I don't understand why people think young guys can't develop coming off the bench. There's a pretty good argument that if you start young players based on where they were picked, versus being ready to start, you're hurting their development. This is particularly the case where a 19 year old comes in undersized or where he's a poor fit with other starters.

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[Revenged25]

Not buying there is much dg interest however he is represented by Klutch who could be pushing for a move for their client.
I mean Sexton hasnt proven he can run a bad team but he shown he can score a high level on or off ball in the past 2 seasons and the pairing is not good nor expecting to be defensively do it is very possible cle wants Ball or Haliburton hell maybe Hampton who they worked out as all 3 seen as better passers and better sized for defender upside despite only haliburton showing that he understands defensive assignments etc either way all could play next to Sexton or Kpj better than dg.
On the other hand if they are impressed enough with Sextons on ball and passing flashes it could push dg to the bench this season which would not be good for his development.
I could see dg moved to Detroit or possibly CHA.
But more likely the interest if any is frim Klutch pushing him out.
Id rsther see what they got with him at least this season and see what happens but i mean if you can walk away with Okoro or even 1 of the true pgs and Okongwu for Garland im down.

I don't understand why people think young guys can't develop coming off the bench. There's a pretty good argument that if you start young players based on where they were picked, versus being ready to start, you're hurting their development. This is particularly the case where a 19 year old comes in undersized or where he's a poor fit with other starters.

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Giannis started his career coming off the bench and had to earn every minute he got... pretty sure that worked out for him. Same with Jimmy Butler