Harden-watch 2020

[therealbig3]

Am I in Bizarro world or something? People on the GB honestly think that Kemba Walker has legit trade value?

The guy is 30 and on an albatross contract for the next 2+ years. He's clearly nowhere close to worth that much. I like Kemba, I think he's a really good player, and he's a deserving All-Star.

But how in the world does he have more value in a trade than Spencer Dinwiddie? Dinwiddie as an expiring contract provides a team with cap relief. If a team wants to keep him long-term, they certainly can by paying him what he's worth in free agency, I doubt it'll be anywhere close to Kemba's deal, and they can also flip him again for a pick as an expiring contract to someone else if they don't want to do that. OTOH, you can't do anything with Kemba's contract, and he's not the level of player where he's going to take you to the next level. Oh and Dinwiddie is 3 years younger.

Like, Kemba is the better player, but I honestly don't see a huge difference between them, and Kemba right now is honestly not a good contract. Like, he's not amongst the worst, since he is actually playing and playing well, but tying up 35 million a year into a 30 year old not top 25 player? Ouch.

[LOUiS-D]

I tend to think otherwise. i think its insulting to offer anything less then spencer/levert/allen + 5 picks. i think even that is highway robbery for harden. i think its out there. i think houston knows it. its just a matter of them doing it, which isnt easy. harden is a top 3-5 player in prime. hard to pull a trigger on him for anyone nto named lebron or giannis

I agree. This is a thread the needle situation for Brooklyn, not a time to get cute. It's all about how many other teams have the assets, ambition and stomach for a trade of this magnitude and how long Houston are willing to wait to see if that market widens.

[DarkXaero]

I tend to think otherwise. i think its insulting to offer anything less then spencer/levert/allen + 5 picks. i think even that is highway robbery for harden. i think its out there. i think houston knows it. its just a matter of them doing it, which isnt easy. harden is a top 3-5 player in prime. hard to pull a trigger on him for anyone nto named lebron or giannis

I agree. This is a thread the needle situation for Brooklyn, not a time to get cute. It's all about how many other teams have the assets, ambition and stomach for a trade of this magnitude and how long Houston are willing to wait to see if that market widens.

Whether you guys disagree or not, this is how negotiations generally play out in the NBA, unless you're Billy King. You're not going to play all your cards right away, you want to see what's the best deal you can try to make.

[MrDollarBills]

Sigh.

[BrooklynDynasty]

This is absolutely not the Billy King trade 2.0

Teams know the value of unprotected picks and pick swaps now, and naturally you are getting a 30 year old superduper star instead of past their prime old vets. Worst case scenario you can flip a player in a year or two anyways to recoup a lot of 1sts

[Prokorov]

Am I in Bizarro world or something? People on the GB honestly think that Kemba Walker has legit trade value?

The guy is 30 and on an albatross contract for the next 2+ years. He's clearly nowhere close to worth that much. I like Kemba, I think he's a really good player, and he's a deserving All-Star.

But how in the world does he have more value in a trade than Spencer Dinwiddie? Dinwiddie as an expiring contract provides a team with cap relief. If a team wants to keep him long-term, they certainly can by paying him what he's worth in free agency, I doubt it'll be anywhere close to Kemba's deal, and they can also flip him again for a pick as an expiring contract to someone else if they don't want to do that. OTOH, you can't do anything with Kemba's contract, and he's not the level of player where he's going to take you to the next level. Oh and Dinwiddie is 3 years younger.

Like, Kemba is the better player, but I honestly don't see a huge difference between them, and Kemba right now is honestly not a good contract. Like, he's not amongst the worst, since he is actually playing and playing well, but tying up 35 million a year into a 30 year old not top 25 player? Ouch.

Dinwiddie being an expiring is a negative not a positive. especially when you factor in him being a bit forward about wanting a big deal. I think Kemba is clearly better. even with the knee and even with his defense. he is overpaid, but by like 5-8 million, its not like he is wall or something someone will want kemba

[MrDollarBills]

Kemba is clearly better than Spencer. I don't get the disrespect for Walker, he may be a Celtic but he's a solid player even if he isn't elite.

Either way, I'm starting to lose hope that this will happen. I am an American and I want instant gratification. Nothing less. This isn't working for me.

[MrDollarBills]

I tend to think otherwise. i think its insulting to offer anything less then spencer/levert/allen + 5 picks. i think even that is highway robbery for harden. i think its out there. i think houston knows it. its just a matter of them doing it, which isnt easy. harden is a top 3-5 player in prime. hard to pull a trigger on him for anyone nto named lebron or giannis

I agree. This is a thread the needle situation for Brooklyn, not a time to get cute. It's all about how many other teams have the assets, ambition and stomach for a trade of this magnitude and how long Houston are willing to wait to see if that market widens.

Whether you guys disagree or not, this is how negotiations generally play out in the NBA, unless you're Billy King. You're not going to play all your cards right away, you want to see what's the best deal you can try to make.

Do you think we should have jumped at trying to get Robert Covington for two 1sts? I'm really kind of pissed that the Nets didn't get in on that, Harden aside Covington would have been the perfect fit in our line up.

[Prokorov]

I agree. This is a thread the needle situation for Brooklyn, not a time to get cute. It's all about how many other teams have the assets, ambition and stomach for a trade of this magnitude and how long Houston are willing to wait to see if that market widens.

Whether you guys disagree or not, this is how negotiations generally play out in the NBA, unless you're Billy King. You're not going to play all your cards right away, you want to see what's the best deal you can try to make.

Do you think we should have jumped at trying to get Robert Covington for two 1sts? I'm really kind of pissed that the Nets didn't get in on that, Harden aside Covington would have been the perfect fit in our line up.

100% no.

Covington is a popular name but he is still just a role player. if you miss out on covington you can find guys out there that give you 75-90% of what he does. Maybe a guy like norm powell, Christian Wood, Iwundu, Ariza if the rockets dont want him around, oladipo...

There is no Harden. you keep hope alive for him until he is dealt elsewhere. Harden moves the needs several notches. Covigton maybe 1 or 2. Its possible to even draft a covington type, maybe move up a few spots.

[Prokorov]

I tend to think otherwise. i think its insulting to offer anything less then spencer/levert/allen + 5 picks. i think even that is highway robbery for harden. i think its out there. i think houston knows it. its just a matter of them doing it, which isnt easy. harden is a top 3-5 player in prime. hard to pull a trigger on him for anyone nto named lebron or giannis

I agree. This is a thread the needle situation for Brooklyn, not a time to get cute. It's all about how many other teams have the assets, ambition and stomach for a trade of this magnitude and how long Houston are willing to wait to see if that market widens.

Whether you guys disagree or not, this is how negotiations generally play out in the NBA, unless you're Billy King. You're not going to play all your cards right away, you want to see what's the best deal you can try to make.

there is no negotiation though. Our best offer is already a weak one. so offering less then that isnt negotiation and may irk the GM even or make him think you arent serious

[Sharcm1]

I hope and think that this harden deal will not happen this year. Let’s see what this team can do before blowing it up. The rockets aren’t feeling the pressure either to trade harden as he has two years left on his contract. Next summer we can revisit the trade if we don’t win a championship or there are glaring things we need to change. Next summer harden will also have more leverage being a free agent the next year.

[MGrand15]

Yeah, I think more and more that Pooch jumped the gun, and this isn't anywhere close to happening.

I have no hard feelings towards Houston at all, they're doing what they think is best for their team, can't blame them. Harden doesn't want to be there, but they have him signed for another 2 years. His value might not go up, but it's still likely he'll command a monster trade package regardless of when he gets dealt. Doing it now rather than later would mainly be to get started on their rebuild sooner rather than later, and if there's any good will on their end towards Harden for what he's given them and accommodating his request.

Also, we shouldn't get too invested in getting Harden as if we're doomed if we don't get him. It started off as a pipe dream that's now closer to reality than we initially thought. But without Harden, we still have two of the premier stars in the league and a deep, talented roster. We can go in a million different directions if the Harden plan falls through. Obviously we have to go for it if we can get him, but if we don't, we still have plenty of options.

We are obviously fine without harden. but we arent clear favorites. we still need to make moves. one of levert/dinwiddie has to go. and we need to bring in defenders

This is the problem with the Harden deal not getting done right away. Training camp is in 2 weeks. Season is about a month away. If we strike out on Harden, we need to move on quickly to plan B. If not, we can get stuck with the current roster waiting for Houston. Maybe Marks doesn't mind seeing how it works before doing anything but that always gets tricky. If Dinwiddie/LeVert struggle during the season, their value goes way down.

[MrDollarBills]

I hope and think that this harden deal will not happen this year. Let’s see what this team can do before blowing it up. The rockets aren’t feeling the pressure either to trade harden as he has two years left on his contract. Next summer we can revisit the trade if we don’t win a championship or there are glaring things we need to change. Next summer harden will also have more leverage being a free agent the next year.

Our assets lose value if this carries on past training camp.

If this doesn't get done tonight, it's over. I think it's a huge loss for the Nets, missing out on Jrue AND Convington.

[MrDollarBills]

Yeah, I think more and more that Pooch jumped the gun, and this isn't anywhere close to happening.

I have no hard feelings towards Houston at all, they're doing what they think is best for their team, can't blame them. Harden doesn't want to be there, but they have him signed for another 2 years. His value might not go up, but it's still likely he'll command a monster trade package regardless of when he gets dealt. Doing it now rather than later would mainly be to get started on their rebuild sooner rather than later, and if there's any good will on their end towards Harden for what he's given them and accommodating his request.

Also, we shouldn't get too invested in getting Harden as if we're doomed if we don't get him. It started off as a pipe dream that's now closer to reality than we initially thought. But without Harden, we still have two of the premier stars in the league and a deep, talented roster. We can go in a million different directions if the Harden plan falls through. Obviously we have to go for it if we can get him, but if we don't, we still have plenty of options.

We are obviously fine without harden. but we arent clear favorites. we still need to make moves. one of levert/dinwiddie has to go. and we need to bring in defenders

This is the problem with the Harden deal not getting done right away. Training camp is in 2 weeks. Season is about a month away. If we strike out on Harden, we need to move on quickly to plan B. If not, we can get stuck with the current roster waiting for Houston. Maybe Marks doesn't mind seeing how it works before doing anything but that always gets tricky. If Dinwiddie/LeVert struggle during the season, their value goes way down.

The Blazers and Bucks already beat us to Plan B.

[Paradise]

Am I in Bizarro world or something? People on the GB honestly think that Kemba Walker has legit trade value?

The guy is 30 and on an albatross contract for the next 2+ years. He's clearly nowhere close to worth that much. I like Kemba, I think he's a really good player, and he's a deserving All-Star.

But how in the world does he have more value in a trade than Spencer Dinwiddie? Dinwiddie as an expiring contract provides a team with cap relief. If a team wants to keep him long-term, they certainly can by paying him what he's worth in free agency, I doubt it'll be anywhere close to Kemba's deal, and they can also flip him again for a pick as an expiring contract to someone else if they don't want to do that. OTOH, you can't do anything with Kemba's contract, and he's not the level of player where he's going to take you to the next level. Oh and Dinwiddie is 3 years younger.

Like, Kemba is the better player, but I honestly don't see a huge difference between them, and Kemba right now is honestly not a good contract. Like, he's not amongst the worst, since he is actually playing and playing well, but tying up 35 million a year into a 30 year old not top 25 player? Ouch.

The GB is a cesspool of Billy Kings who think they are Sam Hinkie.

Everyone wants to overvalue Kemba to spite Kyrie or any PG they have a narrative against and it sounds like Danny Ainge has been shopping this dude across the league after ONE season? Lol

[ProspectPark]

Houston is probably trying to get us to take Eric Gordon’s contract. He has 3 years left at $18 million per year and he’s turning 32 in a month.

Another negotiation might be trying to find a 3rd team to give up some picks to take Dinwiddie and or LeVert.

As far as the Simmons talk. Houston already saw how hard it is to win with a PG who can’t shoot in Westbrook. I could see their analytic department being turned off on Simmons.

[Paradise]

Sixers pushing for a Beal or Lavine trade...

Read on Twitter

?s=21

Hmmm...

[vincecarter4pres]

Houston is probably trying to get us to take Eric Gordon’s contract. He has 3 years left at $18 million per year and he’s turning 32 in a month.

Another negotiation might be trying to find a 3rd team to give up some picks to take Dinwiddie and or LeVert.

As far as the Simmons talk. Houston already saw how hard it is to win with a PG who can’t shoot in Westbrook. I could see their analytic department being turned off on Simmons.

I think we’re already agreeing to take Gordon as long as we get Tucker too.

They’re probably trying to find 3rd and 4th teams to send picks and/or players for Dinwiddie and Allen and possibly negotiating future pick protections.

There also has to be discussion between said 3rd team and Dinwiddie on his desire to sign long term with his new team and what type of money he’ll be looking for, along with what role he expects, which make things more complicated.

That said, I’m no longer convinced this trade is definitely happening.

[haosmoove]

I don't think this deal is happening right away.

We can reason it out by looking at it from Rockets' perspective. The Nets' package for Harden is underwhelming (and Marks knows it) yet that's the maximum they can offer. Other teams aren't willing to offer more because Harden is unlikely to stay. So basically whatever package that's available now from the Nets will be available closer to the deadline anyways. (To a less extent it will still be available next off-season, minus Dinwiddie) Rockets doesn't have their 2021 pick so there's no hurry to tank right away.

Additionally, holding on to Harden one more season may give the FO an opportunity to work out some of the differences and change his mind about leaving. however small that chance is, it's greater than zero and it would not be possible if they dealt him now.

I know some of you may say we should hurry up and look for option B. I think it's a bad idea at this point for two reasons. First, some of the options were already gone and we are left with Beal that probably costs similar to the package for Harden. (Using what Bucks and Celts offered for Holiday as a baseline) Secondly, if we make a move, it will take us out of the Harden sweepstake and as a result it opens up more destinations for where Harden is willing to go. That would be exactly what the Rockets are waiting for.

[ProspectPark]

Daryl Morey put some great protections on those picks he traded to OKC. For example in 2021:

2021 first round draft pick to Oklahoma City (swap, Oklahoma City or Miami incoming)
Oklahoma City will receive the two most favorable of its 2021 1st round pick, Miami's 2021 1st round pick and Houston's 2021 1st round pick protected for selections 1-4 and Houston will receive the least favorable of the three (via Miami to Phoenix to Philadelphia to L.A. Clippers to Oklahoma City; via Oklahoma City's right to swap Oklahoma City or Miami for Houston) (if the Houston pick falls within its protected range and is therefore not conveyable, then Houston's obligation to Oklahoma City will be extinguished) [Miami-New Orleans-Phoenix, 2/19/2015; Philadelphia-Phoenix, 6/21/2018; L.A. Clippers-Philadelphia, 2/6/2019; L.A. Clippers-Oklahoma City, 7/10/2019; Houston-Oklahoma City, 7/16/2019]

Am I reading this right? If Houston’s pick next year is anywhere from 1-4, they get to keep it? Maybe they do have an incentive to tank.