Draft Night Part Deux - Knicks with Picks 25 and 33

[Clyde Frazier]

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ok... so getting him open shots is kinda a priority now

Which means getting a PG and shooters is a priority.

Obi thrived as a 5 in a four out offense. We need to figure out how to get him that spacing when he's surrounded by Mitch and RJ.

getting a PG and shooters has been a priority for some time now but yeah if they were so enamored with obi you'd hope they put him in the best position to succeed. we'll see what happens.

[moocow007]

You have to think we made out well, when we were able to pick the player we wanted at 8. We probably pick that same player with the 4th pick...

At 8 it was the right pick. At 4? Not so much. Folks that hate this pick at 8, need to look at the other players that were left at 8. It's not exactly a rogues gallery of greatness. You had a unproven high upside Euro that averaged 4ppg last season and a high floor low ceiling "point guard" that can't create his own shots and has choppy handles (the double kiss of death in the NBA for a starting PG). Those were your 2 main competing options. The Knicks were screwed the minute they dropped in the lottery selection process. They needed a top 3 slot, they ended up getting up rammed up the butthole. For a butthole pick, Toppin was excellent. Hate the basketball gods, maybe hate them for not trading down...but not this pick. They made the best choice of a bad situation.

[8516knicks]

No problem with Obi @ 8 but what's with the other fumbles at 25 & 33?

[NoDopeOnSundays]

Playing him at the 5 may be best for him, but it would be a disaster for us.

We should be trying to sign Ibaka, 3.3 threes per game in only 27mpg, he'd allow us to play Obi more to his strengths and allow us to also keep Mitch.

Maybe look into bringing Porzingis back

I'd take a flier on Mo Bamba, he needs a lot of work, but he did shoot 35% from three this season.

[mpharris36]

You have to think we made out well, when we were able to pick the player we wanted at 8. We probably pick that same player with the 4th pick...

At 8 it was the right pick. At 4? Not so much. Folks that hate this pick at 8, need to look at the other players that were left at 8. It's not exactly a rogues gallery of greatness. You had a unproven high upside Euro that averaged 4ppg last season and a high floor low ceiling "point guard" that can't create his own shots and has choppy handles (the double kiss of death in the NBA for a starting PG). Those were your 2 main competing options. The Knicks were screwed the minute they dropped in the lottery selection process. They needed a top 3 slot, they ended up getting up rammed up the butthole. For a butthole pick, Toppin was excellent. Hate the basketball gods, but not this pick. They made the best choice of a bad situation.

to be fair I still think we are still 2 stars away. And when we got those two starts I would think Deni/Haliburton/Vassell would fit better next to those guys then Obi. That is my reasoning. 8 isn't a bad spot for him but a couple years down the road when this roster is reshaped and we are going star hunting I will have trouble finding the fit with Obi...he makes roster construction difficult when the other 3 guys have positional versatility on offense and defense.

[moocow007]

No problem with Obi @ 8 but what's with the other fumbles at 25 & 33?

Yeah that's where I have more issues with. They'd have been better off staying with Balmoro IMO and then keeping the 2nd round pick to pick a guy like Grant Riller. I'm not a fan of Quickly but maybe there's something to him.

[GONYK]

No problem with Obi @ 8 but what's with the other fumbles at 25 & 33?

Yeah that's where I have more issues with. They'd have been better off staying with Balmoro IMO and then keeping the 2nd round pick to pick a guy like Grant Riller.

I think the biggest fumble was not making a pick at 33. There was plenty of useful talent still on the board.

I think we all look at the draft differently if we are adding Riller, Mannion, Maledon, Tillie etc... to Toppin and Quickley

[god shammgod]

Read on Twitter

ok... so getting him open shots is kinda a priority now

Which means getting a PG and shooters is a priority.

Obi thrived as a 5 in a four out offense. We need to figure out how to get him that spacing when he's surrounded by Mitch and RJ.

interestingly though he's only average as the roll man

[Jeff Van Gully]

so who was obi gang hardcore in the draft thread? would love to hear from them.

i don't think we had anyone seriously checking for quickley, but i could be wrong.

[GONYK]

You have to think we made out well, when we were able to pick the player we wanted at 8. We probably pick that same player with the 4th pick...

At 8 it was the right pick. At 4? Not so much. Folks that hate this pick at 8, need to look at the other players that were left at 8. It's not exactly a rogues gallery of greatness. You had a unproven high upside Euro that averaged 4ppg last season and a high floor low ceiling "point guard" that can't create his own shots and has choppy handles (the double kiss of death in the NBA for a starting PG). Those were your 2 main competing options. The Knicks were screwed the minute they dropped in the lottery selection process. They needed a top 3 slot, they ended up getting up rammed up the butthole. For a butthole pick, Toppin was excellent. Hate the basketball gods, but not this pick. They made the best choice of a bad situation.

to be fair I still think we are still 2 stars away. And when we got those two starts I would think Deni/Haliburton/Vassell would fit better next to those guys then Obi. That is my reasoning. 8 isn't a bad spot for him but a couple years down the road when this roster is reshaped and we are going star hunting I will have trouble finding the fit with Obi...he makes roster construction difficult when the other 3 guys have positional versatility on offense and defense.

I think that is where the argument is getting muddied.

The resistance to Toppin wasn't really about individual talent. I don't think his skill in a vacuum was ever in question.

It's his fit with our other foundational pieces and how difficult it makes constructing a roster around essentially 3 interior players.

[moocow007]

You have to think we made out well, when we were able to pick the player we wanted at 8. We probably pick that same player with the 4th pick...

At 8 it was the right pick. At 4? Not so much. Folks that hate this pick at 8, need to look at the other players that were left at 8. It's not exactly a rogues gallery of greatness. You had a unproven high upside Euro that averaged 4ppg last season and a high floor low ceiling "point guard" that can't create his own shots and has choppy handles (the double kiss of death in the NBA for a starting PG). Those were your 2 main competing options. The Knicks were screwed the minute they dropped in the lottery selection process. They needed a top 3 slot, they ended up getting up rammed up the butthole. For a butthole pick, Toppin was excellent. Hate the basketball gods, but not this pick. They made the best choice of a bad situation.

to be fair I still think we are still 2 stars away. And when we got those two starts I would think Deni/Haliburton/Vassell would fit better next to those guys then Obi. That is my reasoning. 8 isn't a bad spot for him but a couple years down the road when this roster is reshaped and we are going star hunting I will have trouble finding the fit with Obi...he makes roster construction difficult when the other 3 guys have positional versatility on offense and defense.

I look at it this way...no one on this team is married to this team nor this team to him. The Knicks still do not have a "cornerstone" player. There were no cornerstone players left at 8. You take the best talent and see what he can produce for you especially if that talent has his head on straight, that competes and that is willing to learn. Toppin appears to be all of that. So what does that mean? That means that he should be receptive and willing to work on his strength and conditioning, and on his defense. If you take a bigger and stronger (and as a result more explosive) Toppin, get him to show that he can continue to make some outside shots AND play team defense, you have a valuable asset on your team (either to keep or to trade). The fact that Toppin is older can be a negative, but it also can be a positive if you are looking for someone that can learn quickly, is mature to do so, you could have a better asset to move in a shorter period of time. He doesn't have to be a superstar to be valuable. He doesn't have to be a defensive whiz. He just needs to maximize his strengths and plug some holes on his weaknesses so that the weaknesses aren't glaring (i.e. what a guy like Julius Randle has yet failed to do). Toppin was the best asset for what they appear to want to do (build quickly) that was out there at 8. Like or dislike their plan, at least they are making the types of picks that match their plan. Unlike the regimes of the past 20 years where there didn't seem to be any plan and it was just a mish mosh of individual moves.

[Jeff Van Gully]

We should be trying to sign Ibaka, 3.3 threes per game in only 27mpg, he'd allow us to play Obi more to his strengths and allow us to also keep Mitch.

Maybe look into bringing Porzingis back

I'd take a flier on Mo Bamba, he needs a lot of work, but he did shoot 35% from three this season.

love ibaka. and a productive vet who doesn't need a big role is perfect for what we have. serge could clean up all the backup 4 and 5 minutes and easily have his 26 minutes or so per game.

[Jeff Van Gully]

At 8 it was the right pick. At 4? Not so much. Folks that hate this pick at 8, need to look at the other players that were left at 8. It's not exactly a rogues gallery of greatness. You had a unproven high upside Euro that averaged 4ppg last season and a high floor low ceiling "point guard" that can't create his own shots and has choppy handles (the double kiss of death in the NBA for a starting PG). Those were your 2 main competing options. The Knicks were screwed the minute they dropped in the lottery selection process. They needed a top 3 slot, they ended up getting up rammed up the butthole. For a butthole pick, Toppin was excellent. Hate the basketball gods, but not this pick. They made the best choice of a bad situation.

to be fair I still think we are still 2 stars away. And when we got those two starts I would think Deni/Haliburton/Vassell would fit better next to those guys then Obi. That is my reasoning. 8 isn't a bad spot for him but a couple years down the road when this roster is reshaped and we are going star hunting I will have trouble finding the fit with Obi...he makes roster construction difficult when the other 3 guys have positional versatility on offense and defense.

I look at it this way...no one on this team is married to this team nor this team to him. The Knicks still do not have a "cornerstone" player. You take the best talent and see what he can produce for you especially if that talent has his head on straight, that competes and that is willing to learn. Toppin appears to be all of that. So what does that mean? That means that he should be receptive and willing to work on his strength and conditioning, and on his defense. If you take a bigger and stronger (and as a result more explosive) Toppin, get him to show that he can continue to make some outside shots AND play team defense, you have a valuable asset on your team. The fact that Toppin is older can be a negative, but it also can be a positive if you are looking for someone that can learn quickly, is mature to do so, you could have a better asset to move in a shorter period of time. He doesn't have to be a superstar to be valuable. He doesn't have to be a defensive whiz. The Knicks need assets. Toppin is the best asset for what they appear to want to do that was out there at 8.

you have a perennial all-star on your team. and again, obi's entering his prime on rookie scale. that's actually a positive for getting someone older.

[Jeff Van Gully]

At 8 it was the right pick. At 4? Not so much. Folks that hate this pick at 8, need to look at the other players that were left at 8. It's not exactly a rogues gallery of greatness. You had a unproven high upside Euro that averaged 4ppg last season and a high floor low ceiling "point guard" that can't create his own shots and has choppy handles (the double kiss of death in the NBA for a starting PG). Those were your 2 main competing options. The Knicks were screwed the minute they dropped in the lottery selection process. They needed a top 3 slot, they ended up getting up rammed up the butthole. For a butthole pick, Toppin was excellent. Hate the basketball gods, but not this pick. They made the best choice of a bad situation.

to be fair I still think we are still 2 stars away. And when we got those two starts I would think Deni/Haliburton/Vassell would fit better next to those guys then Obi. That is my reasoning. 8 isn't a bad spot for him but a couple years down the road when this roster is reshaped and we are going star hunting I will have trouble finding the fit with Obi...he makes roster construction difficult when the other 3 guys have positional versatility on offense and defense.

I think that is where the argument is getting muddied.

The resistance to Toppin wasn't really about individual talent. I don't think his skill in a vacuum was ever in question.

It's his fit with our other foundational pieces and how difficult it makes constructing a roster around essentially 3 interior players.

i think obi's offensive versatility is a bit understated. he can be both a stretch big AND a playmaking big. i think he will do well for spacing and flow. it's the defense i'm most concerned about with him, and i think going to a thibs shop means he will work on it.

[robillionaire]

so who was obi gang hardcore in the draft thread? would love to hear from them.

i don't think we had anyone seriously checking for quickley, but i could be wrong.

at 8 I was hoping for okoro or toppin and we got one of them, so I'm good. wasn't high on hayes or haliburton although they would have been okay picks, and didn't want williams, vassell, kira, nesmith, or any of the other guys being talked about at 8

3toheadmelo and I talked about quickley quite a bit and a few others liked him but we were mostly considering him at 38, nobody was really considering him at 27(25). But this was before the combine which apparently raised his stock. Of course I'm a UK fan so I'm going to stan for him

[mpharris36]

At 8 it was the right pick. At 4? Not so much. Folks that hate this pick at 8, need to look at the other players that were left at 8. It's not exactly a rogues gallery of greatness. You had a unproven high upside Euro that averaged 4ppg last season and a high floor low ceiling "point guard" that can't create his own shots and has choppy handles (the double kiss of death in the NBA for a starting PG). Those were your 2 main competing options. The Knicks were screwed the minute they dropped in the lottery selection process. They needed a top 3 slot, they ended up getting up rammed up the butthole. For a butthole pick, Toppin was excellent. Hate the basketball gods, but not this pick. They made the best choice of a bad situation.

to be fair I still think we are still 2 stars away. And when we got those two starts I would think Deni/Haliburton/Vassell would fit better next to those guys then Obi. That is my reasoning. 8 isn't a bad spot for him but a couple years down the road when this roster is reshaped and we are going star hunting I will have trouble finding the fit with Obi...he makes roster construction difficult when the other 3 guys have positional versatility on offense and defense.

I look at it this way...no one on this team is married to this team nor this team to him. The Knicks still do not have a "cornerstone" player. There were no cornerstone players left at 8. You take the best talent and see what he can produce for you especially if that talent has his head on straight, that competes and that is willing to learn. Toppin appears to be all of that. So what does that mean? That means that he should be receptive and willing to work on his strength and conditioning, and on his defense. If you take a bigger and stronger (and as a result more explosive) Toppin, get him to show that he can continue to make some outside shots AND play team defense, you have a valuable asset on your team (either to keep or to trade). The fact that Toppin is older can be a negative, but it also can be a positive if you are looking for someone that can learn quickly, is mature to do so, you could have a better asset to move in a shorter period of time. He doesn't have to be a superstar to be valuable. He doesn't have to be a defensive whiz. He just needs to maximize his strengths and plug some holes on his weaknesses so that the weaknesses aren't glaring (i.e. what a guy like Julius Randle has yet failed to do). Toppin was the best asset for what they appear to want to do (build quickly) that was out there at 8. Like or dislike their plan, at least they are making the types of picks that match their plan. Unlike the regimes of the past 20 years where there didn't seem to be any plan and it was just a mish mosh of individual moves.

I agree that was there approach. I don't necessary agree with the lets get better right away approach when you still have no cornerstone players. You could see from my perspective that trying to get better without a cornerstone might put them in a position to not get one either from the draft now or FA. But I agree that was there approach and Obi makes sense as the pick for that approach.

[GONYK]

to be fair I still think we are still 2 stars away. And when we got those two starts I would think Deni/Haliburton/Vassell would fit better next to those guys then Obi. That is my reasoning. 8 isn't a bad spot for him but a couple years down the road when this roster is reshaped and we are going star hunting I will have trouble finding the fit with Obi...he makes roster construction difficult when the other 3 guys have positional versatility on offense and defense.

I think that is where the argument is getting muddied.

The resistance to Toppin wasn't really about individual talent. I don't think his skill in a vacuum was ever in question.

It's his fit with our other foundational pieces and how difficult it makes constructing a roster around essentially 3 interior players.

i think obi's offensive versatility is a bit understated. he can be both a stretch big AND a playmaking big. i think he will do well for spacing and flow. it's the defense i'm most concerned about with him, and i think going to a thibs shop means he will work on it.

Even if you are a buyer of Obi's offensive versatility, I'm not sure I'm a buyer of Mitch and RJ's offensive versatility around him.

I'm not even talking about the defense. That is baked in and maybe he can improve. I just don't see a way we get the guy space. I don't think using him as a spacer is what we drafted him for.

That's not a knock on him as an individual player.

[moocow007]

to be fair I still think we are still 2 stars away. And when we got those two starts I would think Deni/Haliburton/Vassell would fit better next to those guys then Obi. That is my reasoning. 8 isn't a bad spot for him but a couple years down the road when this roster is reshaped and we are going star hunting I will have trouble finding the fit with Obi...he makes roster construction difficult when the other 3 guys have positional versatility on offense and defense.

I look at it this way...no one on this team is married to this team nor this team to him. The Knicks still do not have a "cornerstone" player. You take the best talent and see what he can produce for you especially if that talent has his head on straight, that competes and that is willing to learn. Toppin appears to be all of that. So what does that mean? That means that he should be receptive and willing to work on his strength and conditioning, and on his defense. If you take a bigger and stronger (and as a result more explosive) Toppin, get him to show that he can continue to make some outside shots AND play team defense, you have a valuable asset on your team. The fact that Toppin is older can be a negative, but it also can be a positive if you are looking for someone that can learn quickly, is mature to do so, you could have a better asset to move in a shorter period of time. He doesn't have to be a superstar to be valuable. He doesn't have to be a defensive whiz. The Knicks need assets. Toppin is the best asset for what they appear to want to do that was out there at 8.

you have a perennial all-star on your team. and again, obi's entering his prime on rookie scale. that's actually a positive for getting someone older.

Correct. Toppin's strength is obviously on the offensive end...and it probably will continue to be so. And he probably will never be a great defender. But he appears to be a very mature player, that has his head on straight, that does the right things and competes. The Knicks have had guys like that but the problem is they didn't have the talent. Toppin does. You put him in with a coach like Thibodeau and he should be able to address his weaknesses. Not to make him a defensive whiz, but to at least not make him a defensive liability. Do that and you do have a potential all-star level player on your hands. That's value...whether he stays with the Knicks or is moved in a deal for someone else, that's a different discussion.

Fit? Yeah, hmm... But if you take a look at who the Knicks currently have as their "core" what you have is another guy (RJ Barrett) that has the same type of seriousness, maturity, competitiveness...along with talent. Those are the types of guys you want to have if you want to try to change the culture. And the fact that they are talented, just makes it better cause, at the end of the day, the Knicks need all the talent they can get since they are currently one of the least talented teams in the NBA.

On a related note, unlike what Thibs had in Minny, you do have guys that actually and by all accounts want to buy in and is willing to put in the work on both ends to play the coaches system. That's the part where for a system to work, you have to have talented players that are willing to buy into the coaches system. That's what made Thibs Bulls teams work and why the Thibs Wolves teams didn't. Lining up players with talent that actually was willing to play the way the coach wants to play. Now obviously the Knicks aren't as talented as the Bulls or the Wolves (see the problem with lack of talent?) but it's a great starting point.

[DaGawd]

No problem with Obi @ 8 but what's with the other fumbles at 25 & 33?

Yeah that's where I have more issues with. They'd have been better off staying with Balmoro IMO and then keeping the 2nd round pick to pick a guy like Grant Riller.

I think the biggest fumble was not making a pick at 33. There was plenty of useful talent still on the board.

I think we all look at the draft differently if we are adding Riller, Mannion, Maledon, Tillie etc... to Toppin and Quickley

I could see the Knicks maybe thinking we have enough unknown young talent already existing on the roster that they maybe wanted to see what they could get out of them before adding more to it.. that’s all I got cause yeah I also was baffled at not keeping that 33rd pick

[Jeff Van Gully]

so who was obi gang hardcore in the draft thread? would love to hear from them.

i don't think we had anyone seriously checking for quickley, but i could be wrong.

at 8 I was hoping for okoro or toppin and we got one of them, so I'm good. wasn't high on hayes or haliburton although they would have been okay picks, and didn't want williams, vassell, kira, nesmith, or any of the other guys being talked about at 8

3toheadmelo and I talked about quickley quite a bit and a few others liked him but we were mostly considering him at 38, nobody was really considering him at 27(25). But this was before the combine which apparently raised his stock. Of course I'm a UK fan so I'm going to stan for him

i feel like melo gets a good look at everyone, which is a good thing for that thread. that doesn't surprise me at all. nice to hear. also good to get your perspective as a UK fan who followed dude closely. i guess you think this is a good idea to use him as a combo guard. from what i understand of his attributes, i've grown into a state of legit excitement. i don't know what he's going to do about getting to the cup, but he can peel. love those long arms and defensive potential too.

your didn't want list is fascinating. by other guys talked about i assume you mean killian and haliburton.