Draft Night Part Deux - Knicks with Picks 25 and 33

[KnicksGadfly]

You have to think we made out well, when we were able to pick the player we wanted at 8. We probably pick that same player with the 4th pick...

At 8 it was the right pick. At 4? Not so much. Folks that hate this pick at 8, need to look at the other players that were left at 8. It's not exactly a rogues gallery of greatness. You had a unproven high upside Euro that averaged 4ppg last season and a high floor low ceiling "point guard" that can't create his own shots and has choppy handles (the double kiss of death in the NBA for a starting PG). Those were your 2 main competing options. The Knicks were screwed the minute they dropped in the lottery selection process. They needed a top 3 slot, they ended up getting up rammed up the butthole. For a butthole pick, Toppin was excellent. Hate the basketball gods, but not this pick. They made the best choice of a bad situation.

BPA, to me, is definitely not defined that easily. For example, maybe the Bulls FO would actually argue that they drafted BPA, based on long-term projections about Patrick Williams' potential and their own plans. Maybe Toppin is BPA based on your definition, but I like to factor in defense and 2-way play and I like to factor in projections about championship contribution. Toppin is more proven, a better scorer, yes, and actually, compare him to LaMelo or Edwards...he can even argue that his in-college contributions were better than theirs. But if we gave some of the guys in the draft a few extra years, could they not have gotten to his level or put up gaudy statistics as well?

I don't see the case for Toppin as that cut and dry, like a no brainer. You bring up that picking Toppin at the 4th pick would have been a mistake, so I'm assuming that Hayes or Okungwu or Okoro caught your eye, but to me, I think the fact that the Knicks were willing to pick at 5 to secure him means a lot. To me, it means that the Knicks identified him as at least the 5th best. At the very least, that should bring you concern. Why did that happen? What metrics?

I guess the biggest thing I'm willing to concede is that Toppin might be BPA for the Knicks' win-now strategy. It's clear that reports about Thibs advocating for win-now are accurate. Clear we want a vet PG and that there are options on the market. The thing is, even Toppin needs to develop, and on defense...it's not that easy to do. I think it's also fair to say that in a few years, we might be looking at this pick with regret. BPA is so subjective...a few of the studs in our league probably were not considered BPA in their drafts...now that they're all stars, should they have been counted as BPA? And if they shouldn't be, what does that say about BPA? And if they are, what does that say about our Toppin pick?

Maybe Toppin proves me wrong (and I have to hope he does), but I think this is not as easy as saying, "He's BPA. Right pick." There should be room to say, we might have screwed up. I like him, but there were other options, too.

[Mr Rabbit]

Read on Twitter

ok... so getting him open shots is kinda a priority now

Which means getting a PG and shooters is a priority.

Obi thrived as a 5 in a four out offense. We need to figure out how to get him that spacing when he's surrounded by Mitch and RJ.

interestingly though he's only average as the roll man

Yeah, that’s a little surprising. Maybe they keep Mitch as the primary roll man and use Obi in different ways. I doubt it, but if not I’m struggling to see where Mitch fits offensively unless he starts knocking down threes

[GONYK]

Which means getting a PG and shooters is a priority.

Obi thrived as a 5 in a four out offense. We need to figure out how to get him that spacing when he's surrounded by Mitch and RJ.

interestingly though he's only average as the roll man

Yeah, that’s a little surprising. Maybe they keep Mitch as the primary roll man and use Obi in different ways. I doubt it, but if not I’m struggling to see where Mitch fits offensively unless he starts knocking down threes

Mitch better sign with CAA before Leon is forced to address the spacing issues

[8516knicks]

No problem with Obi @ 8 but what's with the other fumbles at 25 & 33?

Yeah that's where I have more issues with. They'd have been better off staying with Balmoro IMO and then keeping the 2nd round pick to pick a guy like Grant Riller.

I think the biggest fumble was not making a pick at 33. There was plenty of useful talent still on the board.

I think we all look at the draft differently if we are adding Riller, Mannion, Maledon, Tillie etc... to Toppin and Quickley

My mood is "Damnit, it was Xmas, we want Xmas PRESENTS!!!"

[robillionaire]

You have to think we made out well, when we were able to pick the player we wanted at 8. We probably pick that same player with the 4th pick...

At 8 it was the right pick. At 4? Not so much. Folks that hate this pick at 8, need to look at the other players that were left at 8. It's not exactly a rogues gallery of greatness. You had a unproven high upside Euro that averaged 4ppg last season and a high floor low ceiling "point guard" that can't create his own shots and has choppy handles (the double kiss of death in the NBA for a starting PG). Those were your 2 main competing options. The Knicks were screwed the minute they dropped in the lottery selection process. They needed a top 3 slot, they ended up getting up rammed up the butthole. For a butthole pick, Toppin was excellent. Hate the basketball gods, maybe hate them for not trading down...but not this pick. They made the best choice of a bad situation.

"they made the best choice of a bad situation"

yeah I agree with that.

At 4, they are still going to take Toppin. Who else do you think they would have taken? Williams, Okoro, Hayes, or Okongwu?
I loved Okoro. But we know he's a bad fit with RJ. Hayes is just as much of a project as the players you listed above. Okongwu us a big when we had Mitch. Williams averaged 9 and 4 off the bench.

But also think about the top 3 that we needed. Edwards doesn't even want to play basketball and seems flaky af. Wiseman might be a great big but we have Mitch. The only pick that would have made sense is LaMelo and a lot of people didn't want him either based on the drama, defense, shooting etc. To me looking at if from the Knicks perspective it was a 1 man draft(LaMelo). We didn't get him.

[mpharris36]

I think that is where the argument is getting muddied.

The resistance to Toppin wasn't really about individual talent. I don't think his skill in a vacuum was ever in question.

It's his fit with our other foundational pieces and how difficult it makes constructing a roster around essentially 3 interior players.

i think obi's offensive versatility is a bit understated. he can be both a stretch big AND a playmaking big. i think he will do well for spacing and flow. it's the defense i'm most concerned about with him, and i think going to a thibs shop means he will work on it.

Even if you are a buyer of Obi's offensive versatility, I'm not sure I'm a buyer of Mitch and RJ's offensive versatility around him.

I'm not even talking about the defense. That is baked in and maybe he can improve. I just don't see a way we get the guy space. I don't think using him as a spacer is what we drafted him for.

That's not a knock on him as an individual player.

Thibs is going to have to get creative offensively. I could see a lot of high P&R with RJ and Obi where you get the ball to Obi early going down hill at the top of the key and Mitch on the baseline so either the defense has to stop Obi going down hill or hit Mitch for a lob. Obi has some pretty good passing skills and can make that pass so they need to utilize that if they are both going to fit.

They can't just camp Obi in the corner for 3 and let Mitch run the P&R.

[robillionaire]

so who was obi gang hardcore in the draft thread? would love to hear from them.

i don't think we had anyone seriously checking for quickley, but i could be wrong.

at 8 I was hoping for okoro or toppin and we got one of them, so I'm good. wasn't high on hayes or haliburton although they would have been okay picks, and didn't want williams, vassell, kira, nesmith, or any of the other guys being talked about at 8

3toheadmelo and I talked about quickley quite a bit and a few others liked him but we were mostly considering him at 38, nobody was really considering him at 27(25). But this was before the combine which apparently raised his stock. Of course I'm a UK fan so I'm going to stan for him

i feel like melo gets a good look at everyone, which is a good thing for that thread. that doesn't surprise me at all. nice to hear. also good to get your perspective as a UK fan who followed dude closely. i guess you think this is a good idea to use him as a combo guard. from what i understand of his attributes, i've grown into a state of legit excitement. i don't know what he's going to do about getting to the cup, but he can peel. love those long arms and defensive potential too.

your didn't want list is fascinating. by other guys talked about i assume you mean killian and haliburton.

I mentioned killian and haliburton in my post. said I wasn't high on them but I would have been okay with the pick. But had them below Toppin and Okoro. But above the other guys I listed at the end

[Mr Rabbit]

interestingly though he's only average as the roll man

Yeah, that’s a little surprising. Maybe they keep Mitch as the primary roll man and use Obi in different ways. I doubt it, but if not I’m struggling to see where Mitch fits offensively unless he starts knocking down threes

Mitch better sign with CAA before Leon is forced to address the spacing issues

He did enroll at Western Kentucky. It’s not UK, but it’s close.

[Polk377]

Which means getting a PG and shooters is a priority.

Obi thrived as a 5 in a four out offense. We need to figure out how to get him that spacing when he's surrounded by Mitch and RJ.

interestingly though he's only average as the roll man

Yeah, that’s a little surprising. Maybe they keep Mitch as the primary roll man and use Obi in different ways. I doubt it, but if not I’m struggling to see where Mitch fits offensively unless he starts knocking down threes

I see Thibs putting Mitch either as the pick and roll big or on the weak side corner for spot up short 3's or hard opposite side cuts. He has a roll on the offense without having to be stuck in the paint.

[stuporman]

Another offensive player with questionable defense and no PG to make the offense go or flow means another season of underwhelming production from the young guys so their value and status around the league goes even lower.

[NoDopeOnSundays]

i think obi's offensive versatility is a bit understated. he can be both a stretch big AND a playmaking big. i think he will do well for spacing and flow. it's the defense i'm most concerned about with him, and i think going to a thibs shop means he will work on it.

Even if you are a buyer of Obi's offensive versatility, I'm not sure I'm a buyer of Mitch and RJ's offensive versatility around him.

I'm not even talking about the defense. That is baked in and maybe he can improve. I just don't see a way we get the guy space. I don't think using him as a spacer is what we drafted him for.

That's not a knock on him as an individual player.

Thibs is going to have to get creative offensively. I could see a lot of high P&R with RJ and Obi where you get the ball to Obi early going down hill at the top of the key and Mitch on the baseline so either the defense has to stop Obi going down hill or hit Mitch for a lob. Obi has some pretty good passing skills and can make that pass so they need to utilize that if they are both going to fit.

They can't just camp Obi in the corner for 3 and let Mitch run the P&R.

That's basically the Sixers offense when Ben Simmons doesn't have the ball and just occupies the dunkers spot.

[Jeff Van Gully]

I look at it this way...no one on this team is married to this team nor this team to him. The Knicks still do not have a "cornerstone" player. You take the best talent and see what he can produce for you especially if that talent has his head on straight, that competes and that is willing to learn. Toppin appears to be all of that. So what does that mean? That means that he should be receptive and willing to work on his strength and conditioning, and on his defense. If you take a bigger and stronger (and as a result more explosive) Toppin, get him to show that he can continue to make some outside shots AND play team defense, you have a valuable asset on your team. The fact that Toppin is older can be a negative, but it also can be a positive if you are looking for someone that can learn quickly, is mature to do so, you could have a better asset to move in a shorter period of time. He doesn't have to be a superstar to be valuable. He doesn't have to be a defensive whiz. The Knicks need assets. Toppin is the best asset for what they appear to want to do that was out there at 8.

you have a perennial all-star on your team. and again, obi's entering his prime on rookie scale. that's actually a positive for getting someone older.

Correct. Toppin's strength is obviously on the offensive end...and it probably will continue to be so. And he probably will never be a great defender. But he appears to be a very mature player, that has his head on straight, that does the right things and competes. The Knicks have had guys like that but the problem is they didn't have the talent. Toppin does. You put him in with a coach like Thibodeau and he should be able to address his weaknesses. Do that and you do have a potential all-star level player on your hands. That's value...whether he stays with the Knicks or is moved in a deal for someone else. Fit? Yeah, hmm... But if you take a look at who the Knicks currently have as their "core" what you have is another guy (RJ Barrett) that has the same type of seriousness, maturity, competitiveness...along with talent. Those are the types of guys you want to have if you want to try to change the culture. And the fact that they are talented, just makes it better.

yeah, i'm actually a fan of the RJ/obi/mitch frontcourt plan. we got a couple of kentucky PFs i wonder what we'll do with. provided we don't make any trades, i suspect at worst (or best, depending on perspective) case scenario randle stays a while and is the starting 4, while obi scratches out close to 30 minutes with all the backup 4 and 5 minutes? knox... takes what he can at backup 3 and situational backup 4?

[GONYK]

i think obi's offensive versatility is a bit understated. he can be both a stretch big AND a playmaking big. i think he will do well for spacing and flow. it's the defense i'm most concerned about with him, and i think going to a thibs shop means he will work on it.

Even if you are a buyer of Obi's offensive versatility, I'm not sure I'm a buyer of Mitch and RJ's offensive versatility around him.

I'm not even talking about the defense. That is baked in and maybe he can improve. I just don't see a way we get the guy space. I don't think using him as a spacer is what we drafted him for.

That's not a knock on him as an individual player.

Thibs is going to have to get creative offensively. I could see a lot of high P&R with RJ and Obi where you get the ball to Obi early going down hill at the top of the key and Mitch on the baseline so either the defense has to stop Obi going down hill or hit Mitch for a lob. Obi has some pretty good passing skills and can make that pass so they need to utilize that if they are both going to fit.

They can't just camp Obi in the corner for 3 and let Mitch run the P&R.

Putting Obi as an attacking passer is interesting, but I don't see how the defense doesn't just pack the paint when those three are on the floor together.

It's more likely that if we are putting Obi in that position, the better play would be to kick it out to whoever is our 1 or 3. Those guys need to be real threats (38%+) to really pull the defense out enough.

Bottom line is I don't see Mitch and Obi playing a ton together or we're throwing a ton of money at Joe Harris

[Traveyknicks23]

So they gotta let Mitch start shooting now right?

[GONYK]

Even if you are a buyer of Obi's offensive versatility, I'm not sure I'm a buyer of Mitch and RJ's offensive versatility around him.

I'm not even talking about the defense. That is baked in and maybe he can improve. I just don't see a way we get the guy space. I don't think using him as a spacer is what we drafted him for.

That's not a knock on him as an individual player.

Thibs is going to have to get creative offensively. I could see a lot of high P&R with RJ and Obi where you get the ball to Obi early going down hill at the top of the key and Mitch on the baseline so either the defense has to stop Obi going down hill or hit Mitch for a lob. Obi has some pretty good passing skills and can make that pass so they need to utilize that if they are both going to fit.

They can't just camp Obi in the corner for 3 and let Mitch run the P&R.

That's basically the Sixers offense when Ben Simmons doesn't have the ball and just occupies the dunkers spot.

Agreed.

The results the Sixers got wasn't too encouraging

[mpharris36]

Even if you are a buyer of Obi's offensive versatility, I'm not sure I'm a buyer of Mitch and RJ's offensive versatility around him.

I'm not even talking about the defense. That is baked in and maybe he can improve. I just don't see a way we get the guy space. I don't think using him as a spacer is what we drafted him for.

That's not a knock on him as an individual player.

Thibs is going to have to get creative offensively. I could see a lot of high P&R with RJ and Obi where you get the ball to Obi early going down hill at the top of the key and Mitch on the baseline so either the defense has to stop Obi going down hill or hit Mitch for a lob. Obi has some pretty good passing skills and can make that pass so they need to utilize that if they are both going to fit.

They can't just camp Obi in the corner for 3 and let Mitch run the P&R.

Putting Obi as an attacking passer is interesting, but I don't see how the defense doesn't just pack the paint when those three are on the floor together.

It's more likely that if we are putting Obi in that position, the better play would be to kick it out to whoever is our 1 or 3. Those guys need to be real threats (38%+) to really pull the defense out enough.

Bottom line is I don't see Mitch and Obi playing a ton together or we're throwing a ton of money at Joe Harris

well yes if you have guys like FVV and Quickly stretching the floor or Frank continues his good corner 3's at a higher clip that hopefully will be enough space to open for that play to be effective where teams couldn't just pack the paint.

I like RJ as a 3 so I want two guards playing with that lineup so they can knock down shots for RJ/Obi/Mitch.

[Mr Rabbit]

interestingly though he's only average as the roll man

Yeah, that’s a little surprising. Maybe they keep Mitch as the primary roll man and use Obi in different ways. I doubt it, but if not I’m struggling to see where Mitch fits offensively unless he starts knocking down threes

I see Thibs putting Mitch either as the pick and roll big or on the weak side corner for spot up short 3's or hard opposite side cuts. He has a roll on the offense without having to be stuck in the paint.

Sure, he’s just gonna have to prove he can knock down the corner 3 or teams are gonna give him the Ben Simmons treatment.

[NoDopeOnSundays]

So they gotta let Mitch start shooting now right?

He pretty much has to be able to shoot now, if they had taken a wing you could do the 4 out 1 in thing, but now his future with the team is directly tied to his ability to shoot.

[Jeff Van Gully]

Even if you are a buyer of Obi's offensive versatility, I'm not sure I'm a buyer of Mitch and RJ's offensive versatility around him.

I'm not even talking about the defense. That is baked in and maybe he can improve. I just don't see a way we get the guy space. I don't think using him as a spacer is what we drafted him for.

That's not a knock on him as an individual player.

Thibs is going to have to get creative offensively. I could see a lot of high P&R with RJ and Obi where you get the ball to Obi early going down hill at the top of the key and Mitch on the baseline so either the defense has to stop Obi going down hill or hit Mitch for a lob. Obi has some pretty good passing skills and can make that pass so they need to utilize that if they are both going to fit.

They can't just camp Obi in the corner for 3 and let Mitch run the P&R.

Putting Obi as an attacking passer is interesting, but I don't see how the defense doesn't just pack the paint when those three are on the floor together.

It's more likely that if we are putting Obi in that position, the better play would be to kick it out to whoever is our 1 or 3. Those guys need to be real threats (38%+) to really pull the defense out enough.

Bottom line is I don't see Mitch and Obi playing a ton together or we're throwing a ton of money at Joe Harris

don't threaten me with a good time

[mpharris36]

Thibs is going to have to get creative offensively. I could see a lot of high P&R with RJ and Obi where you get the ball to Obi early going down hill at the top of the key and Mitch on the baseline so either the defense has to stop Obi going down hill or hit Mitch for a lob. Obi has some pretty good passing skills and can make that pass so they need to utilize that if they are both going to fit.

They can't just camp Obi in the corner for 3 and let Mitch run the P&R.

That's basically the Sixers offense when Ben Simmons doesn't have the ball and just occupies the dunkers spot.

Agreed.

The results the Sixers got wasn't too encouraging

I'm not sure Richardson and Harris are good enough 3 pt shooters to keep the defense honest. We would need 40% guys spacing it out for that play to work.

I assume that is why Quickly was drafted.