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Deni Avdija

Moderators: nate33, montestewart, LyricalRico

Do you like this pick?

Yes
94
73%
No
21
16%
Don't care
14
11%
 
Total votes: 129

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Re: Deni Avdija 

Post#141 » by Jimmy Recard » Thu Nov 19, 2020 11:46 pm

prime1time wrote:I get the Sato comparisons, but Advija is a lot more aggressive than Sato. Also, Satoransky was 25 when he came to the Wiz. Advija is 19. It's going to be very interesting to see who starts at the 3: Brown Jr, Bonga or Advija. Deni won't be creating off the dribble for at least a year more likely 2 to 3 years but in terms of spacing the floor for Brad, I think he can definitely do that.

I still think Bonga starts at the 3 for defensive purposes, with Deni backing him up. At least to start the season.

Regarding Troy, everything we’ve heard from Tommy sounds like he’ll be playing a lot more in the backcourt this season, and even playing a bunch at PG. (I’m all for it).

So there’s minutes to be had for all three of them.
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Re: Deni Avdija 

Post#142 » by prime1time » Thu Nov 19, 2020 11:48 pm

Listening to the Zach Lowe podcast, it sounds like Deni targeted the Wiz as the place he wanted to land. FWIW.
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Re: Deni Avdija 

Post#143 » by WizarDynasty » Thu Nov 19, 2020 11:57 pm

prime1time wrote:Listening to the Zach Lowe podcast, it sounds like Deni targeted the Wiz as the place he wanted to land. FWIW.

You can't blame Deni for targeting Wiz. We drafted Vesely. Historical Bust. We drafted Seraphin. Bust. Every single Euro player 1st round pick that we have drafted has busted. None of them check the box for quickly being able to deeply bend hips and generate lower arched back at the same time before rising into his jumpshot.
Go check the videos, even Otto Porter coudn't do this. This is huge front office lack of talent problem and we don't can't hire auditors to fix non talented executive management.

none of the players wizards are drafting have this ability including Deni.
We need a new GM who has the a talented eye to see this deficiency, Tommy does not have this ability. If he did, he would not have drafted Deni.
So again.. pay attention to paul pierce lower back and
We draft bust because the scouts can't recognize deficient core athleticism. They overlook a player who can't bend his hips deeply and arch his lower back at teh same time while dribbling. Watch deni dribble, is back is stiff as a board. He is unable to arch his lower back before rising into a jumpshot even if he wanted to. This is not something you can coach out. this is deficiency that FO can not detect. They repeatedly to this with all of their draft picks and hence bust. They pick Wall and Beal because they had top 3 picks. They even picked Otto who suffered the same problem.
This is a chronic problem from the Grunfeld REgime.and yes Tommy is still part of the Grunfeld regime because he worked directly under grunfeld when all these decisions were made. Tommy if qualified would have save his boss from making these bad decisions but he didn't and now we see the same bad decisions.


The whole point is that paul has superior form even before entering the nba. Deni's form is horrible and he doesn't have lower back arch athleticism. In other words his lower back is extremely stiff and thus he can;t easily arch. This stiffness in his lower back is extremely hard to fix. It is not his form, its his pure core athleticism that is teh problem and something the FO failed to evaluate when evaluating. In trained eye can see how stiff he is in his lower back when dribbling. That is one the most important elements of athleticism. a player ability to arch is lower back and dip his hips deeply at the same time.
Deni can not do this, paul pierce at the same point in development easily has this athleticism. Teh FO does not recognize this deficiency when drafting players. This is why we has fans suffer. Direttly related to not understanding deep hip bend and lower back arch before rising into your jumpshot. This take alot of athleticism to do and Deni does not have it.
THis is a major blunder and bust. Do we blame Deni. Nope. You blame the people who blundered for teh second time with a Euro.
Build your team w/5 shooters using P. Pierce Form deeply bent hips and lower back arch at same time b4 rising into shot. Elbow never pointing to the ground! Good teams have an engine player that shoot volume (2000 full season) at 50 percent.Large Hands
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Re: Deni Avdija 

Post#144 » by doclinkin » Fri Nov 20, 2020 12:12 am

prime1time wrote:The NBA draft is when organizations get to decide who they are/want to be. Like how people know that such and such player is a Spurs type player or a Heat type player. For elite players this is irrelevant but for everyone else it is essential. Calling out our organization because our management/head coach want to talk about character traits is not only nonsensical it flat out misses the forest for the trees. That’s literally what the draft is about. For years we just drafted anyone without rhyme or reason. Kevin Seraphin, Trevor Booker, Kelly Oubre, Jan Vesely, Andray Blatche, Jarvis Hayes, Jared Jeffries, Tomas Satorabsky, Oleksiy Petreocvhov. What commonalities connects any of those players? Say what you want about Sheppard, at least he has a vision for who he wants the Wizards to be. Hard working, tough, high iq basketball players. You can criticize players but perhaps it makes more sense to criticize the vision. But to be fair, I think you should offer your own vision. I think this wizards team has a chance to be pretty formidable in a year or two. I think Sheppard has done a bang up job overhauling a terrible roster. And I question precisely how the posters criticizing him would have gone about building the roster. Ultimately I feel like some people complain because it’s all they know. Like the saying goes, when you’re a hammer everything looks like a nail.


I've laid out what I would do. But I can do it again if you wonder.

Personally I'm on board with much of what Tommy does, but he still gets mixed reviews for me. So far I like his trades and distrust his drafting. Some of this is a "time will tell" sort of thing. Rui and Deni will have to develop, we can give them time -- since, what's the alternative. But, while he has drafted character guys who love the game, he still has not put emphasis towards half of the court.

Defense wins championships. Character, well, character makes it easier to endure losing? Character avoids loopy cinnamon-challenge doofuses with more talent than sense. Okay. Fair. It avoids Bulletproof Andray Blatche etc. (Though frankly he was one of the better 2nd round pick ups as far as late production). And the wrong Glen Rice. Sure. So cool, get character.

But this is still a game played on both ends of the court. And one end we flat suck at. If I'm grading him by his own stated priorities, he failed. He said we need defense and rebounding and rim protection and energy in the front court. He said we need to improve on defense. Underneath and in perimeter defense. There were players in the draft who provided both. There are players after #9 who I feel may challenge for NBA all defense teams. Players with character and intangibles and all of that. This team needs talent and depth alike. He decided to keep talent, punt on depth.

I do feel like this team more than most has often taken a flier on overseas talent. If you look through our history in the time that Tommy has been a lead scout, we draft a higher % of foreign players than anywhere else. And commonly take them higher than mocks have them rated. It seems like a blind spot to me. An area of irrational exuberance, unproven by track record. Yeah we will sometimes hit on a bargain Satoransky. I recall waiting forever on La Bomba JCNavarro and was disappointed he only ended up as a trade chip. But we are constantly ending up with players you cited: Seraphin, Pecherov, Vesely, etc. When Tommy was our international scout. So yeah, some of us can still be frustrated with the 'new boss, same as the old boss' when we land a Iusuf Sanon, or whomever. We traded a chance for Bam Adebayo for a rental of Bojan Bogdanovic. Even now we have: Mo Wagner, Pasecsniks... (Rui, Bonga, Bertans). Tommy has a bit of a boner for the international player. For FIBA experience. I mean, fine can we just buy a him a Euroleague club instead of a G-League team?

If it were me, given the perceived value of the the guy falling, I would have seen if I could have sold high on unproven talent, to pick up quietly solid defenders and rebounders later. If I were drafting on potential I would have gone for the defending athlete with upside and potential. Defense is undervalued so players who contribute to your winning bottom line fall to later in the draft. I will be loudly cheering for Deni, and will hope we get the best from him and will find positive signs on his behalf, but I feel like if we had sold that pick and landed players later we would have gotten more value. Defense, rebounding, depth, and yeah, sure, even character.

We are not Miami, for developing talent or building a team, but my feeling is it's going to be maddening to battle a Bam/Precious front line for a while. Who do you want to bet on winning more over the next few years? Us with Rui and Deni. Or Miami with Herro and Bam and all. I know we got a good player with interesting upside. I like the kid. I can like him and still know in my bones we could have had a stronger result in our win column by trading back.

I wanted Isaiah Stewart. Saddiq Bey. Precious. Xavier Tillman. Daniel Oturu. Even Vernon Carey. I know there are players further back than 9 that will have teams shaking their head.

I like Tommy. I like character. I respect Euroleague experience for teaching team play at both ends. But. What is his plan for defense, beyond Brooks telling his players to try harder. And hoping what we already have gets better. As has been said before, hope is not a plan.
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Re: Deni Avdija 

Post#145 » by doclinkin » Fri Nov 20, 2020 12:15 am

I mean if you are going to have a jones for international players, start scouting Nigeria. They had like a dozen players represented in this years draft. 21 in the league. (Okay and Serbia and Croatia, fine, they are tough and skilled and well trained).
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Re: Deni Avdija 

Post#146 » by DCZards » Fri Nov 20, 2020 12:28 am

doclinkin wrote:I mean if you are going to have a jones for international players, start scouting Nigeria. They had like a dozen players represented in this years draft. 21 in the league. (Okay and Serbia and Croatia, fine, they are tough and skilled and well trained).

Yep...Nigerian big men are starting to rule. But you don’t need to go to Nigeria to find them. Most of them are already here in the US.

Just need to have Tommy S. hang out at Fela’s “Shrine” nightclub in Harlem NY.
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Re: Deni Avdija 

Post#147 » by wall_glizzy » Fri Nov 20, 2020 12:33 am

doclinkin wrote:I mean if you are going to have a jones for international players, start scouting Nigeria. They had like a dozen players represented in this years draft. 21 in the league. (Okay and Serbia and Croatia, fine, they are tough and skilled and well trained).


We're not scouting countries of origin, we're scouting where the players play. On the international scene, that's primarily EuroLeague, sometimes overlapping with domestic leagues in especially basketball-crazy countries. I don't think anyone's ever been drafted straight out of... *googles* the Nigerian Premier League, and for good reason.

Anyway the thing about [wanting] Isaiah Stewart. Precious. Xavier Tillman. Daniel Oturu. Even Vernon Carey is that you have to pick one. Maybe two. It's one thing to name a bunch of potential rim protectors, and another entirely to push your chips in on one of them and hit big. Especially with that group, the draft's second-tier bigs, all of whom have steep uphill battles in one or more skill/ability areas before transcending the ranks of replacement-level bigs that are available every offseason. I'd be shocked if more than one of those guys develops to the point that he - or someone of nearly the same profile - can't be had around the minimum four years from now. Compare that to the premium now placed on perimeter players - particularly those with any sort of play-making ability - and it's pretty clear what sorts of players are likely to out-perform their rookie and - hopefully - subsequent contracts (or bust completely, of course, but the name of the game is signing players to deals which provide surplus value; the players doing that to the greatest extent are almost universal play-making wings). I think we took the right shot.
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Re: Deni Avdija 

Post#148 » by I_Like_Dirt » Fri Nov 20, 2020 12:34 am

...
Bucket! Bucket!
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Re: Deni Avdija 

Post#149 » by payitforward » Fri Nov 20, 2020 12:35 am

prime1time wrote:The NBA draft is when organizations get to decide who they are/want to be. Like how people know that such and such player is a Spurs type player or a Heat type player. For elite players this is irrelevant but for everyone else it is essential. Calling out our organization because our management/head coach want to talk about character traits is not only nonsensical it flat out misses the forest for the trees. That’s literally what the draft is about. For years we just drafted anyone without rhyme or reason. Kevin Seraphin, Trevor Booker, Kelly Oubre, Jan Vesely, Andray Blatche, Jarvis Hayes, Jared Jeffries, Tomas Satorabsky, Oleksiy Petreocvhov. What commonalities connects any of those players? Say what you want about Sheppard, at least he has a vision for who he wants the Wizards to be. Hard working, tough, high iq basketball players. ... I think this wizards team has a chance to be pretty formidable in a year or two...

Honestly, I cannot imagine what would make you think that. No, that's not true -- you think that, because you are a fan & would like it to happen. There's not a chance, not even a slight chance. & I do believe that thinking that is one of the problems within the organization as well. Either that or not carrying whether we compete for a title -- I see no reason to think Leonsis cares about doing that.

prime1time wrote:...I think Sheppard has done a bang up job overhauling a terrible roster. And I question precisely how the posters criticizing him would have gone about building the roster....

It's not about criticizing Tommy -- he's done some very good things. But "overhauling a terrible roster" takes longer than he's had, & longer than you seem to think, given your idea that we'll be "formidable" in t he relatively near future.

prime1time wrote:Ultimately I feel like some people complain because it’s all they know. Like the saying goes, when you’re a hammer everything looks like a nail.

That's not the problem: there are a whole lot of nails to be driven. No need to invent any.

The problem is that, over time, we've mostly had a hammer that hit our thumb instead of a nail.

Of course, if we're "formidable in a year or two" that'll be a chance for you to crow. Hope you get to!
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Re: Deni Avdija 

Post#150 » by dckingsfan » Fri Nov 20, 2020 12:41 am

payitforward wrote:
prime1time wrote:The NBA draft is when organizations get to decide who they are/want to be. Like how people know that such and such player is a Spurs type player or a Heat type player. For elite players this is irrelevant but for everyone else it is essential. Calling out our organization because our management/head coach want to talk about character traits is not only nonsensical it flat out misses the forest for the trees. That’s literally what the draft is about. For years we just drafted anyone without rhyme or reason. Kevin Seraphin, Trevor Booker, Kelly Oubre, Jan Vesely, Andray Blatche, Jarvis Hayes, Jared Jeffries, Tomas Satorabsky, Oleksiy Petreocvhov. What commonalities connects any of those players? Say what you want about Sheppard, at least he has a vision for who he wants the Wizards to be. Hard working, tough, high iq basketball players. ... I think this wizards team has a chance to be pretty formidable in a year or two...

Honestly, I cannot imagine what would make you think that. No, that's not true -- you think that, because you are a fan & would like it to happen. There's not a chance, not even a slight chance. & I do believe that thinking that is one of the problems within the organization as well. Either that or not carrying whether we compete for a title -- I see no reason to think Leonsis cares about doing that.

prime1time wrote:...I think Sheppard has done a bang up job overhauling a terrible roster. And I question precisely how the posters criticizing him would have gone about building the roster....

It's not about criticizing Tommy -- he's done some very good things. But "overhauling a terrible roster" takes longer than he's had, & longer than you seem to think, given your idea that we'll be "formidable" in t he relatively near future.

prime1time wrote:Ultimately I feel like some people complain because it’s all they know. Like the saying goes, when you’re a hammer everything looks like a nail.

That's not the problem: there are a whole lot of nails to be driven. No need to invent any.

The problem is that, over time, we've mostly had a hammer that hit our thumb instead of a nail.

Of course, if we're "formidable in a year or two" that'll be a chance for you to crow. Hope you get to!

Well, yeah. But let's face it - there is a nail on that thumb.
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Re: Deni Avdija 

Post#151 » by prime1time » Fri Nov 20, 2020 12:48 am

doclinkin wrote:
prime1time wrote:The NBA draft is when organizations get to decide who they are/want to be. Like how people know that such and such player is a Spurs type player or a Heat type player. For elite players this is irrelevant but for everyone else it is essential. Calling out our organization because our management/head coach want to talk about character traits is not only nonsensical it flat out misses the forest for the trees. That’s literally what the draft is about. For years we just drafted anyone without rhyme or reason. Kevin Seraphin, Trevor Booker, Kelly Oubre, Jan Vesely, Andray Blatche, Jarvis Hayes, Jared Jeffries, Tomas Satorabsky, Oleksiy Petreocvhov. What commonalities connects any of those players? Say what you want about Sheppard, at least he has a vision for who he wants the Wizards to be. Hard working, tough, high iq basketball players. You can criticize players but perhaps it makes more sense to criticize the vision. But to be fair, I think you should offer your own vision. I think this wizards team has a chance to be pretty formidable in a year or two. I think Sheppard has done a bang up job overhauling a terrible roster. And I question precisely how the posters criticizing him would have gone about building the roster. Ultimately I feel like some people complain because it’s all they know. Like the saying goes, when you’re a hammer everything looks like a nail.


I've laid out what I would do. But I can do it again if you wonder.

Personally I'm on board with much of what Tommy does, but he still gets mixed reviews for me. So far I like his trades and distrust his drafting. Some of this is a "time will tell" sort of thing. Rui and Deni will have to develop, we can give them time -- since, what's the alternative. But, while he has drafted character guys who love the game, he still has not put emphasis towards half of the court.

Defense wins championships. Character, well, character makes it easier to endure losing? Character avoids loopy cinnamon-challenge doofuses with more talent than sense. Okay. Fair. It avoids Bulletproof Andray Blatche etc. (Though frankly he was one of the better 2nd round pick ups as far as late production). And the wrong Glen Rice. Sure. So cool, get character.

But this is still a game played on both ends of the court. And one end we flat suck at. If I'm grading him by his own stated priorities, he failed. He said we need defense and rebounding and rim protection and energy in the front court. He said we need to improve on defense. Underneath and in perimeter defense. There were players in the draft who provided both. There are players after #9 who I feel may challenge for NBA all defense teams. Players with character and intangibles and all of that. This team needs talent and depth alike. He decided to keep talent, punt on depth.

I do feel like this team more than most has often taken a flier on overseas talent. If you look through our history in the time that Tommy has been a lead scout, we draft a higher % of foreign players than anywhere else. And commonly take them higher than mocks have them rated. It seems like a blind spot to me. An area of irrational exuberance, unproven by track record. Yeah we will sometimes hit on a bargain Satoransky. I recall waiting forever on La Bomba JCNavarro and was disappointed he only ended up as a trade chip. But we are constantly ending up with players you cited: Seraphin, Pecherov, Vesely, etc. When Tommy was our international scout. So yeah, some of us can still be frustrated with the 'new boss, same as the old boss' when we land a Iusuf Sanon, or whomever. We traded a chance for Bam Adebayo for a rental of Bojan Bogdanovic. Even now we have: Mo Wagner, Pasecsniks... (Rui, Bonga, Bertans). Tommy has a bit of a boner for the international player. For FIBA experience. I mean, fine can we just buy a him a Euroleague club instead of a G-League team?

If it were me, given the perceived value of the the guy falling, I would have seen if I could have sold high on unproven talent, to pick up quietly solid defenders and rebounders later. If I were drafting on potential I would have gone for the defending athlete with upside and potential. Defense is undervalued so players who contribute to your winning bottom line fall to later in the draft. I will be loudly cheering for Deni, and will hope we get the best from him and will find positive signs on his behalf, but I feel like if we had sold that pick and landed players later we would have gotten more value. Defense, rebounding, depth, and yeah, sure, even character.

We are not Miami, for developing talent or building a team, but my feeling is it's going to be maddening to battle a Bam/Precious front line for a while. Who do you want to bet on winning more over the next few years? Us with Rui and Deni. Or Miami with Herro and Bam and all. I know we got a good player with interesting upside. I like the kid. I can like him and still know in my bones we could have had a stronger result in our win column by trading back.

I wanted Isaiah Stewart. Saddiq Bey. Precious. Xavier Tillman. Daniel Oturu. Even Vernon Carey. I know there are players further back than 9 that will have teams shaking their head.

I like Tommy. I like character. I respect Euroleague experience for teaching team play at both ends. But. What is his plan for defense, beyond Brooks telling his players to try harder. And hoping what we already have gets better. As has been said before, hope is not a plan.

I understand where you're coming from but let's get down to brasstacks. What do you mean by character? Because I'm pretty sure what I mean and what you mean are two different things. When I say character I mean hard workers. Day in day out. Basketball is the most important thing in their life. Not being famous. Or enjoying money. They play basketball because they love it and they are commited to the authentic pursuit of becoming the best player they can be. Your line on character making it easy to endure losing strikes my ears as strange music from a foreign land. Getting a team of high character guys is what you do to prevent losing. Either you draft high character guys and create a culture of hardwork and professionalism via the draft or you sign LeBron James. And he comes in and creates his own culture.

Now you call out Sheppard for not improving defense. Is that not like calling out a painter for making a bad painting when he's halfway done? Why is today the arbitrary deadline for every goal of his to be accomplished? If Okongwu would have dropped we would have taken him. So then he would check off that box? Is that how arbitrary your criticism is? The season we fired Grunfeld everything was in dissaray. Sheppard has completely overhauled the roster. Changed the culture BY drafting high quality character guys who are commited to winning and playing team basketball. And now we continue to build. Is everything completed? No. But like I said, with where we were to where we are how can I not be pleased? You said it yourself. You agree with most of what he's done.

Fans here complain just because they want to complain. If someone wants to specifically talk about Advija as a player in the context of being 19 and tell me 1) why it was a bad pick 2) who they would have picked and 3) why this decision will be an absolute disaster going forward I'm all ears.
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Re: Deni Avdija 

Post#152 » by Ed Wood » Fri Nov 20, 2020 12:54 am

Extremely fond of you Doc but your list of good defensive players includes one player I'm comfortable crediting with good NBA defense. Multiple are like notably not good defenders specifically in ways that are more problematic at the NBA level.

e: this is in response to no one in particular (not to Doc's post certainly, bears not at all) but while there are certainly reasonable doubts to be had regarding stats in European domestic leagues/non-senior level tournaments, if you were a big ten forward/center - as I guess many persons of interest to the thread are - Jon Teske and Mike Watkins were probably above average skill/size matchups for you over the course of a given season. I think to an extent it's assumed that US college players' bona fides are more unimpeachable and I think it wise to roll back that heuristic a little.
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Re: Deni Avdija 

Post#153 » by Meliorus » Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:01 am

doclinkin wrote:
prime1time wrote:The NBA draft is when organizations get to decide who they are/want to be. Like how people know that such and such player is a Spurs type player or a Heat type player. For elite players this is irrelevant but for everyone else it is essential. Calling out our organization because our management/head coach want to talk about character traits is not only nonsensical it flat out misses the forest for the trees. That’s literally what the draft is about. For years we just drafted anyone without rhyme or reason. Kevin Seraphin, Trevor Booker, Kelly Oubre, Jan Vesely, Andray Blatche, Jarvis Hayes, Jared Jeffries, Tomas Satorabsky, Oleksiy Petreocvhov. What commonalities connects any of those players? Say what you want about Sheppard, at least he has a vision for who he wants the Wizards to be. Hard working, tough, high iq basketball players. You can criticize players but perhaps it makes more sense to criticize the vision. But to be fair, I think you should offer your own vision. I think this wizards team has a chance to be pretty formidable in a year or two. I think Sheppard has done a bang up job overhauling a terrible roster. And I question precisely how the posters criticizing him would have gone about building the roster. Ultimately I feel like some people complain because it’s all they know. Like the saying goes, when you’re a hammer everything looks like a nail.


I've laid out what I would do. But I can do it again if you wonder.

Personally I'm on board with much of what Tommy does, but he still gets mixed reviews for me. So far I like his trades and distrust his drafting. Some of this is a "time will tell" sort of thing. Rui and Deni will have to develop, we can give them time -- since, what's the alternative. But, while he has drafted character guys who love the game, he still has not put emphasis towards half of the court.

Defense wins championships. Character, well, character makes it easier to endure losing? Character avoids loopy cinnamon-challenge doofuses with more talent than sense. Okay. Fair. It avoids Bulletproof Andray Blatche etc. (Though frankly he was one of the better 2nd round pick ups as far as late production). And the wrong Glen Rice. Sure. So cool, get character.

But this is still a game played on both ends of the court. And one end we flat suck at. If I'm grading him by his own stated priorities, he failed. He said we need defense and rebounding and rim protection and energy in the front court. He said we need to improve on defense. Underneath and in perimeter defense. There were players in the draft who provided both. There are players after #9 who I feel may challenge for NBA all defense teams. Players with character and intangibles and all of that. This team needs talent and depth alike. He decided to keep talent, punt on depth.

I do feel like this team more than most has often taken a flier on overseas talent. If you look through our history in the time that Tommy has been a lead scout, we draft a higher % of foreign players than anywhere else. And commonly take them higher than mocks have them rated. It seems like a blind spot to me. An area of irrational exuberance, unproven by track record. Yeah we will sometimes hit on a bargain Satoransky. I recall waiting forever on La Bomba JCNavarro and was disappointed he only ended up as a trade chip. But we are constantly ending up with players you cited: Seraphin, Pecherov, Vesely, etc. When Tommy was our international scout. So yeah, some of us can still be frustrated with the 'new boss, same as the old boss' when we land a Iusuf Sanon, or whomever. We traded a chance for Bam Adebayo for a rental of Bojan Bogdanovic. Even now we have: Mo Wagner, Pasecsniks... (Rui, Bonga, Bertans). Tommy has a bit of a boner for the international player. For FIBA experience. I mean, fine can we just buy a him a Euroleague club instead of a G-League team?

If it were me, given the perceived value of the the guy falling, I would have seen if I could have sold high on unproven talent, to pick up quietly solid defenders and rebounders later. If I were drafting on potential I would have gone for the defending athlete with upside and potential. Defense is undervalued so players who contribute to your winning bottom line fall to later in the draft. I will be loudly cheering for Deni, and will hope we get the best from him and will find positive signs on his behalf, but I feel like if we had sold that pick and landed players later we would have gotten more value. Defense, rebounding, depth, and yeah, sure, even character.

We are not Miami, for developing talent or building a team, but my feeling is it's going to be maddening to battle a Bam/Precious front line for a while. Who do you want to bet on winning more over the next few years? Us with Rui and Deni. Or Miami with Herro and Bam and all. I know we got a good player with interesting upside. I like the kid. I can like him and still know in my bones we could have had a stronger result in our win column by trading back.

I wanted Isaiah Stewart. Saddiq Bey. Precious. Xavier Tillman. Daniel Oturu. Even Vernon Carey. I know there are players further back than 9 that will have teams shaking their head.

I like Tommy. I like character. I respect Euroleague experience for teaching team play at both ends. But. What is his plan for defense, beyond Brooks telling his players to try harder. And hoping what we already have gets better. As has been said before, hope is not a plan.


Beautifully said. Character is not really a measurable basketball trait, and neither is hard work because there is no data and no proof that it leads to winning. There are probably many hard-working, live and breathe basketball guys in any draft. And most of them fail. There is no guarantee we even got the highest character/work ethic player in the draft. I'd rather get a player who has measurable skills because hard work cannot make up for talent.

For those who have played basketball, some people are shooters, and other guys you leave open. Shooting is not a skill that can be developed by everyone. One of the most innate skills I've heard is defensive instincts. Some things are kind of innate. Yes, you can have all the work ethic and competitive fire in the world but it doesn't solve everything.

It so happens that the skills that are the most important in the NBA (defense and switchability on defense, and shooting) are kind of innate. Not entirely, but for the most part. And we're refusing to get guys who naturally excel in those areas. One of the most generic traits I hear about is being a gym-rat and being a wonderful person. Are we sure Deni has better character than the guys taken after? I don't think so. So why not get the best shooter who also has character, why not get the best rim protector who also has character.
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Re: Deni Avdija 

Post#154 » by prime1time » Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:01 am

Just to nail down this point on character and how I perceive it, I want to be clear. In my opinion, there is no possibility of winning until you have a high-quality culture that prioritizes the team winning over everything else. You achieve this culture by bringing guys who believe this and by in. Character isn't just the esoteric notion that a NBA player won't do something dumb. It is the combination of integrity, authenticity, hardwork and grit that is essential to achieve long term success. You draft these young men, give them millions of dollars, throw them into the middle of a major city and then what?

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/the-last-dance-documentary-michael-jordan-talks-about-his-discomfort-with-nbas-drug-culture-in-1980s/

"I had one event, preseason, I think we were in Peoria," Jordan recalled. "It was in a hotel, so I'm trying to find my teammates. So I start knocking on doors. I get to this one door, and I knock on the door, and I can hear someone says, 'shh, someone's outside.' And then you hear this deep voice, someone says, 'who is it?' I said 'MJ.'

"... So they open up the door. I walk in, and practically the whole team was in there. And it was like, things I've never seen in my life as a young kid. You got your lines [of cocaine] over here, you got your weed smokers over here, you got your women over here. So the first thing I said, 'Look man, I'm out.' Because all I could think about was if they come and raid this place, right about now, I'm just as guilty as everybody else that's in this room. And from that point on, I was more or less on my own."


This is what character looks like. Obviously Deni won't be MJ but he doesn't have to be. All he has to do is be about winning and doing things the right way. Troy is. Rui is. And from what I've heard from Deni he is to. I'd rather ride with them than ride with Andray Blatche, Javale McGee and Chris Singleton. Deni has the weight of his whole country on his shoulders. Just like Rui does. Personally I love it. For him, it's bigger than basketball. We wonder all the time why some players don't reach their full potential. Maybe it's because they don't really care to.
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Re: Deni Avdija 

Post#155 » by Meliorus » Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:09 am

prime1time wrote:Just to nail down this point on character and how I perceive it, I want to be clear. In my opinion, there is no possibility of winning until you have a high-quality culture that prioritizes the team winning over everything else. You achieve this culture by bringing guys who believe this and by in. Character isn't just the esoteric notion that a NBA player won't do something dumb. It is the combination of integrity, authenticity, hardwork and grit that is essential to achieve long term success. You draft these young men, give them millions of dollars, throw them into the middle of a major city and then what?

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/the-last-dance-documentary-michael-jordan-talks-about-his-discomfort-with-nbas-drug-culture-in-1980s/

"I had one event, preseason, I think we were in Peoria," Jordan recalled. "It was in a hotel, so I'm trying to find my teammates. So I start knocking on doors. I get to this one door, and I knock on the door, and I can hear someone says, 'shh, someone's outside.' And then you hear this deep voice, someone says, 'who is it?' I said 'MJ.'

"... So they open up the door. I walk in, and practically the whole team was in there. And it was like, things I've never seen in my life as a young kid. You got your lines [of cocaine] over here, you got your weed smokers over here, you got your women over here. So the first thing I said, 'Look man, I'm out.' Because all I could think about was if they come and raid this place, right about now, I'm just as guilty as everybody else that's in this room. And from that point on, I was more or less on my own."


This is what character looks like. Obviously Deni won't be MJ but he doesn't have to be. All he has to do is be about winning and doing things the right way. Troy is. Rui is. And from what I've heard from Deni he is to. I'd rather ride with them than ride with Andray Blatche, Javale McGee and Chris Singleton. Deni has the weight of his whole country on his shoulders. Just like Rui does. Personally I love it. For him, it's bigger than basketball. We wonder all the time why some players don't reach their full potential. Maybe it's because they don't really care to.


I still distinctly remember when Beal was drafted and how Jay Bilas was talking about how the NBA just got 3 wonderful, high character young men. I just pulled up the video and he says, "1-2-3 the NBA just got 3 terrific young men. 3 high character guys". It obviously didn't end up working out for MKG. I'm not sure how much character takes you in this league that is all about offensive efficiency and switchable defense. And high character is a label thrown onto so many prospects, so how can we even tell whose not high character (Anthony Edwards, sure)?
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Re: Deni Avdija 

Post#156 » by Ed Wood » Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:10 am

The high character thing I think it just Tommy being the tin-man in interviews as much as anything.
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Re: Deni Avdija 

Post#157 » by prime1time » Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:27 am

Meliorus wrote:
prime1time wrote:Just to nail down this point on character and how I perceive it, I want to be clear. In my opinion, there is no possibility of winning until you have a high-quality culture that prioritizes the team winning over everything else. You achieve this culture by bringing guys who believe this and by in. Character isn't just the esoteric notion that a NBA player won't do something dumb. It is the combination of integrity, authenticity, hardwork and grit that is essential to achieve long term success. You draft these young men, give them millions of dollars, throw them into the middle of a major city and then what?

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/the-last-dance-documentary-michael-jordan-talks-about-his-discomfort-with-nbas-drug-culture-in-1980s/

"I had one event, preseason, I think we were in Peoria," Jordan recalled. "It was in a hotel, so I'm trying to find my teammates. So I start knocking on doors. I get to this one door, and I knock on the door, and I can hear someone says, 'shh, someone's outside.' And then you hear this deep voice, someone says, 'who is it?' I said 'MJ.'

"... So they open up the door. I walk in, and practically the whole team was in there. And it was like, things I've never seen in my life as a young kid. You got your lines [of cocaine] over here, you got your weed smokers over here, you got your women over here. So the first thing I said, 'Look man, I'm out.' Because all I could think about was if they come and raid this place, right about now, I'm just as guilty as everybody else that's in this room. And from that point on, I was more or less on my own."


This is what character looks like. Obviously Deni won't be MJ but he doesn't have to be. All he has to do is be about winning and doing things the right way. Troy is. Rui is. And from what I've heard from Deni he is to. I'd rather ride with them than ride with Andray Blatche, Javale McGee and Chris Singleton. Deni has the weight of his whole country on his shoulders. Just like Rui does. Personally I love it. For him, it's bigger than basketball. We wonder all the time why some players don't reach their full potential. Maybe it's because they don't really care to.


I still distinctly remember when Beal was drafted and how Jay Bilas was talking about how the NBA just got 3 wonderful, high character young men. I just pulled up the video and he says, "1-2-3 the NBA just got 3 terrific young men. 3 high character guys". It obviously didn't end up working out for MKG. I'm not sure how much character takes you in this league that is all about offensive efficiency and switchable defense. And high character is a label thrown onto so many prospects, so how can we even tell whose not high character (Anthony Edwards, sure)?

MKG was definitely a high character guy. And it shows that we live in a complex world. Where more things matter than just working hard. MKG's jumper was absolutely broken. But let's expand it. I'm sure Adam Morrisson worked hard. I'm sure Jimmer Fridette worked hard. If feel like you are trying to strawman me into something I'm not saying. I never once said that the only thing that mattered was someone's work ethic/character. What I did say and what I do believe, on the other hand, is that if you don't have good work ethic/character you won't be successful. To put it another way it is necessary rather than a sufficient condition. You can say it is just. Sheppard doing a Tin Man routine and if it is, it'll be obvious because he will be a bust and we will move on.

But from last year and reading about Rui, to two years ago and reading about Troy I simply have a different perspective. Far from being a tin man routine, he is looking for a specific kind of player. And trying to create a winning culture. But like always you are free to form your own opinion. At the end of the day the Win-Loss column will be the final decider. Not my opinion.
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Re: Deni Avdija 

Post#158 » by doclinkin » Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:32 am

Ed Wood wrote:Extremely fond of you Doc but your list of good defensive players includes one player I'm comfortable crediting with good NBA defense. Multiple are like notably not good defenders specifically in ways that are more problematic at the NBA level.



My point was not in selecting one, but in trading back you get a chance to select a few.

But it is a metagame thing for me. I have been of the mind that the small ball era was due to change. We saw some of that in the bubble championship. And in the continued short fall of Moreyball. My belief has been that in an era of 3fg chucking, the value of defensive rebounding increases. 3pt shots are a lower percentage shot with a high variance. Meaning there are more missed shots, more attempts. They are streaky. This means are more missed possessions and more missed shots available. Consider that there are loose possessions on more than 60% of 3 pt shots on all 3fg attempts). To my way of thinking, the team that loads up on players who rebound at all positions (considering there are long bounces) and who scores well on the interior (at a %50 or greater clip) can control the number of possessions and squeeze out the streakier long ball teams. Not every team is the Warriors. Most are just hucking and hoping for a streak to stay in the game. Teams that rebound then score efficiently from 2pt land can control the number of possessions and the 3fg bombers do not have enough opportunity to catch fire.

I've been banging that monkey for 5 years now. Then we saw the Spurs with Kawhi begin to play that way, then the Bucks under coach Bud started winning every regular season by dominating the rebounding game. Then the Raptors with Kawhi won that way.

So. My point was simply you can win if you rebound, and score on the inside. Even with cheap high energy bigs who bang underneath. Yes you want them to have range to the free throw line, sure, but if opponent bigs can be enticed to huck from trebuchet range outside, you live with it happily and hoover up every bounce they miss. Stay big, play big.

Now personally if I could get Saddiq Bey, plus [2nd round draft pick] and Xavier Tillman, I'd be happy. If I had Bey and Isaiah Washington and [2nd round pick], I'd be happy. I might gamble on Precious next to a reliable energy big, if I felt I had a coaching staff that could focus him (since I was impressed with his ability to learn on the fly to play and defend all court on effort and talent alone when Wiseman tapped out). I might be wrong, but there is at least a strategy on that side of the ball. Show me a coherent defensive strategy in whatever picks we have made in the Tommy era. I know we have an offensive strategy. That side of the ball we do well with, year after year, even when we otherwise suck. But defense? We never select for rebounding.

(I do credit Tommy for draft decisions we made under the Ernie era. He was the director of scouting. His focus was on international scouting. You can see his fingerprint in many of the draft selections we have made).

I like the guys we have. I do. I like the potential of a guy like Bonga. I like the mindset of a guy like Troy. I've got question makes on Rui but he seems like a good hearted hard working guy. I like Deni. I do. He's going to be fun to cheer for. But for all the character we have, as of right now, we suck at defense. They are a bunch of try hard guys who are overmatched. I don't see any effort to help them in the efforts of our front office. I like Tommy, but he stated his priority was to improve our defense. In the draft in particular. He said we need to get bigger and add energy and rebounding etc. Now. Show me how he did that.
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Re: Deni Avdija 

Post#159 » by trast66 » Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:42 am

prime1time wrote:Listening to the Zach Lowe podcast, it sounds like Deni targeted the Wiz as the place he wanted to land. FWIW.


Yes, here, GS and Knicks per foreign press. I feel, with admittedly no evidence, the marketing possibilities did not hurt chances of Ted liking the pick, as with Rui. Does not mean they won’t turn out to be good picks.
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Re: Deni Avdija 

Post#160 » by Meliorus » Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:43 am

prime1time wrote:
Meliorus wrote:
prime1time wrote:Just to nail down this point on character and how I perceive it, I want to be clear. In my opinion, there is no possibility of winning until you have a high-quality culture that prioritizes the team winning over everything else. You achieve this culture by bringing guys who believe this and by in. Character isn't just the esoteric notion that a NBA player won't do something dumb. It is the combination of integrity, authenticity, hardwork and grit that is essential to achieve long term success. You draft these young men, give them millions of dollars, throw them into the middle of a major city and then what?

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/the-last-dance-documentary-michael-jordan-talks-about-his-discomfort-with-nbas-drug-culture-in-1980s/



This is what character looks like. Obviously Deni won't be MJ but he doesn't have to be. All he has to do is be about winning and doing things the right way. Troy is. Rui is. And from what I've heard from Deni he is to. I'd rather ride with them than ride with Andray Blatche, Javale McGee and Chris Singleton. Deni has the weight of his whole country on his shoulders. Just like Rui does. Personally I love it. For him, it's bigger than basketball. We wonder all the time why some players don't reach their full potential. Maybe it's because they don't really care to.


I still distinctly remember when Beal was drafted and how Jay Bilas was talking about how the NBA just got 3 wonderful, high character young men. I just pulled up the video and he says, "1-2-3 the NBA just got 3 terrific young men. 3 high character guys". It obviously didn't end up working out for MKG. I'm not sure how much character takes you in this league that is all about offensive efficiency and switchable defense. And high character is a label thrown onto so many prospects, so how can we even tell whose not high character (Anthony Edwards, sure)?

MKG was definitely a high character guy. And it shows that we live in a complex world. Where more things matter than just working hard. MKG's jumper was absolutely broken. But let's expand it. I'm sure Adam Morrisson worked hard. I'm sure Jimmer Fridette worked hard. If feel like you are trying to strawman me into something I'm not saying. I never once said that the only thing that mattered was someone's work ethic/character. What I did say and what I do believe, on the other hand, is that if you don't have good work ethic/character you won't be successful. To put it another way it is necessary rather than a sufficient condition. You can say it is just. Sheppard doing a Tin Man routine and if it is, it'll be obvious because he will be a bust and we will move on.

But from last year and reading about Rui, to two years ago and reading about Troy I simply have a different perspective. Far from being a tin man routine, he is looking for a specific kind of player. And trying to create a winning culture. But like always you are free to form your own opinion. At the end of the day the Win-Loss column will be the final decider. Not my opinion.


Sorry, I am not trying to strawman. I just don't think we can measure work ethic, and it's just too broad, so I would rather focus on measurable percentiles. I believe there are a lot of players who fit this prerequisite of high character and work ethic.

http://www.tankathon.com/players/deni-avdija
http://www.tankathon.com/players/tyrese-haliburton
http://www.tankathon.com/players/jalen-smith
http://www.tankathon.com/players/devin-vassell

I look at the strengths and weaknesses of all these prospects, and it's no surprise that the guys that people on this board seem to like the most (Haliburton, Okongwu, Jalen Smith, Vassell) grade out the best in both box score and advanced stats. There are simply some guys who are good at many things and bad at very few. This is measurable.

I think my last biggest question of Deni is his lateral quickness. I did read this from a guy who has claimed to watch Deni this entire year, "Athleticism/body; decent athleticism/hops, not great. Very good end to end speed for a guy his size. His main issue IMO is his lateral speed. Sufficient for Europe, but will he be able to keep up in the NBA? I don’t know." I don't know either, I don't see the quick-twitch/lateral quickness that good defenders have. I'm not sure he won't struggle on that end.

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