Fool Me Twice: The Gordon Hayward Thread

[SWedd523]

Hayward was overpaid, but we gave up nothing for him. No picks, no young players, we had the cap space this year and next, and ultimately were going to overpay someone.

Honestly as well I know it is more money for Hayward, but I think guys like Wood and Bogdanovic have way higher bust potential.

So no, they didn't have the cap space

That's why they're stretching Batum.

So they're giving up $9mil of extra cap space for the next three years just to make a bad signing

[JDR720]

Read on Twitter

[countryboi]

why....Hayward is clearly washed and old, its no way any other team would have paid him 120 mil at 30 plus I dont see the end game?

[Vanderbilt_Grad]

The only brightside to this is that we royally screwed the Celtics. They have no contracts to trade now other than Kemba.

Honestly this wouldn't shock me at all if that was part of the reason MJ signed off.

[euphorbus]

Yahoo Sports:

<The Celtics were almost five points per 100 possessions better with Hayward in the lineup last season, second on the team only to Tatum in on/off differential. Boston operated at top-three levels both offensively and defensively with Hayward on the court, scoring 113.8 points per 100 possessions and allowing 105.4.

He may not attack the rim with the same reckless abandon that made him a rising star in Utah (his free-throw attempts have been cut in half since the ankle injury), but the hope is Hayward will continue to be a super-efficient offensive player who can serve as a lead playmaker with increased usage. The 6-foot-7, 225-pound can also defend multiple positions and is the most accomplished available free agent this offseason.>

https://sports.yahoo.com/nba-free-agency-2020-gordon-hayward-to-sign-fouryear-120-million-deal-with-hornets-183135635.html

[Absinthe]

The only brightside to this is that we royally screwed the Celtics. They have no contracts to trade now other than Kemba.

Honestly this wouldn't shock me at all if that was part of the reason MJ signed off.

Ainge is worse than MJ. This guy stockpiled asset after asset and got nothing for it in return due to greed. Now he’s going to have to trade these picks away for pennies on the dollar because they won’t even have enough spots to carry a bunch of non lottery 20 year olds.

[countryboi]

Yahoo Sports:

<The Celtics were almost five points per 100 possessions better with Hayward in the lineup last season, second on the team only to Tatum in on/off differential. Boston operated at top-three levels both offensively and defensively with Hayward on the court, scoring 113.8 points per 100 possessions and allowing 105.4.

He may not attack the rim with the same reckless abandon that made him a rising star in Utah (his free-throw attempts have been cut in half since the ankle injury), but the hope is Hayward will continue to be a super-efficient offensive player who can serve as a lead playmaker with increased usage. The 6-foot-7, 225-pound can also defend multiple positions and is the most accomplished available free agent this offseason.>

https://sports.yahoo.com/nba-free-agency-2020-gordon-hayward-to-sign-fouryear-120-million-deal-with-hornets-183135635.html

give me something to hope for

[LofJ]

The only brightside to this is that we royally screwed the Celtics. They have no contracts to trade now other than Kemba.

Honestly this wouldn't shock me at all if that was part of the reason MJ signed off.

Exactly, unless the young guys on the Celtics roster take another leap we may have killed their title hopes in the short-term. It's going to be several years until they're able to add major talent again.

[JMAC3]

We have been so lucky the last few years. When you get lucky you have to try and capitalize.

We legit got a top 5 player in his draft with PJ, Got a top 10 guy in the draft in the second round with Graham, moved up to the third pick after we should of been selecting 9th and got arguably the best player in this years draft.

Some of you just want to pick in the lottery year after year after year and fantasize that you will win the number 1 pick and get Cade Cunningham. Well guess what OKC is playing a GLeague team this year, Detroit will be awful, Kings are always awful, Chicago will be awful again... there is no guarantee that we get even a top 5 pick.

The difference with this team vs the teams when we had Kemba and we constantly were the 8th seed or picking 9th is we had no players that were developing. Kaminsky, MKG, Monk were all underperforming so we had no chance for internal growth to get over the hump.

With Hayward and the group we have now... we have enormous amount of room for internal growth with PJ, Graham, Ball and even Bridges. Honestly if we would of had Rozier with Kemba during those years he would of been our second best player and now he might not even be in our top 5.... we are in a completely different boat.

We also had no financial flexibility with Kemba, We were paying MKG, Marvin, Biz, Dwight, Batum, Zeller all deals that had negative trade value. We have two guys on our books essentially after this year in Rozier and Hayward. We still have more financial flexibility then we ever had with Kemba and that was with Kemba making 12 million a year lol

[Braggins]

We have been so lucky the last few years. When you get lucky you have to try and capitalize.

We legit got a top 5 player in his draft with PJ, Got a top 10 guy in the draft in the second round with Graham, moved up to the third pick after we should of been selecting 9th and got arguably the best player in this years draft.

Some of you just want to pick in the lottery year after year after year and fantasize that you will win the number 1 pick and get Cade Cunningham. Well guess what OKC is playing a GLeague team this year, Detroit will be awful, Kings are always awful, Chicago will be awful again... there is no guarantee that we get even a top 5 pick.

The difference with this team vs the teams when we had Kemba and we constantly were the 8th seed or picking 9th is we had no players that were developing. Kaminsky, MKG, Monk were all underperforming so we had no chance for internal growth to get over the hump.

With Hayward and the group we have now... we have enormous amount of room for internal growth with PJ, Graham, Ball and even Bridges. Honestly if we would of had Rozier with Kemba during those years he would of been our second best player and now he might not even be in our top 5.... we are in a completely different boat.

We also had no financial flexibility with Kemba, We were paying MKG, Marvin, Biz, Dwight, Batum, Zeller all deals that had negative trade value. We have two guys on our books essentially after this year in Rozier and Hayward. We still have more financial flexibility then we ever had with Kemba and that was with Kemba making 12 million a year lol

I remember reading this exact same post from people over and over again during the Big Al era. We're doing the exact same strategy now as we were back then and its why we have never gotten out of the lottery...

[yosemiteben]

Random thoughts that I haven't seen yet:

How does this square with our Harrell interest? Were we really targeting both?

I will feel better about this if it turns into a bigger deal with salary going out. Reserving judgment until the dust settles.

Your post gives me serious deja vu from the Cho/Clifford era.

How many times have we been in this position, where the front office makes a seemingly atrocious move and the only thing we can do is tell ourselves that maybe there is something else going on that hasn't been reported on yet that makes it not as atrocious, which never turns out to be the case.

Lol you're not wrong. I was so sure there was something more to that Belinelli deal.

This is pretty much where I'm at right now:

Read on Twitter

[Soul Rebel]

I do like this quote from David Aldridge in an Athletic piece just released today.....

David Aldridge: Of course, it’s an overpay..... But people act like players and agents are lining up to come to Charlotte. They are not. Who, exactly, did you think the Hornets would be in on next summer, after they get out from under Batum’s and Cody Zeller’s deals? Giannis? (I don’t think Thanasis Antetokounmpo would sign there, either.) Kawhi? Rudy Gobert? All due respect; they couldn’t get Montrezl Harrell to sign for more money than he got from the Lakers this year; they had ZERO shot at the blue-chip free agents next year. So why not go in a year early, take a chance on Hayward, see what he and LaMelo Ball can do with P.J. Washington and Devonte’ Graham and Miles Bridges, and see if he can resurrect Utah Gordon? If not… dudes. It’s the NBA. You can trade anybody.

I think after the sticker shock wears off and we all settle in, this is kinda where we are at as a franchise.

I would have preferred Christian Wood, Rodney Hood or a younger player that can grow with the rebuild, but it is what it is. We saw Montrezl balk at us for more dough. At least it's not Westbrook, Paul or that insane deal that was given to Morris by LA.

[yosemiteben]

It's not impossible that it works. I'm willing to believe it might work.

But between letting Kemba walk, trading for Rozier for no apparent reason, and now having to waive an expiring Batum to sign another very top of market wing...

I just don't see a coherent strategy.

[316Hornets]

It's not impossible that it works. I'm willing to believe it might work.

But between letting Kemba walk, trading for Rozier for no apparent reason, and now having to waive an expiring Batum to sign another very top of market wing...

I just don't see a coherent strategy.

This is all about Lamelo's development. I think the team actually believes he is a generational type player.

[JMAC3]

We have been so lucky the last few years. When you get lucky you have to try and capitalize.

We legit got a top 5 player in his draft with PJ, Got a top 10 guy in the draft in the second round with Graham, moved up to the third pick after we should of been selecting 9th and got arguably the best player in this years draft.

Some of you just want to pick in the lottery year after year after year and fantasize that you will win the number 1 pick and get Cade Cunningham. Well guess what OKC is playing a GLeague team this year, Detroit will be awful, Kings are always awful, Chicago will be awful again... there is no guarantee that we get even a top 5 pick.

The difference with this team vs the teams when we had Kemba and we constantly were the 8th seed or picking 9th is we had no players that were developing. Kaminsky, MKG, Monk were all underperforming so we had no chance for internal growth to get over the hump.

With Hayward and the group we have now... we have enormous amount of room for internal growth with PJ, Graham, Ball and even Bridges. Honestly if we would of had Rozier with Kemba during those years he would of been our second best player and now he might not even be in our top 5.... we are in a completely different boat.

We also had no financial flexibility with Kemba, We were paying MKG, Marvin, Biz, Dwight, Batum, Zeller all deals that had negative trade value. We have two guys on our books essentially after this year in Rozier and Hayward. We still have more financial flexibility then we ever had with Kemba and that was with Kemba making 12 million a year lol

I remember reading this exact same post from people over and over again during the Big Al era. We're doing the exact same strategy now as we were back then and its why we have never gotten out of the lottery...

If we would of had PJ, Ball, Monk, Graham, Bridges, Rozier on those teams with Kemba and Big Al we would of been pretty good. Instead those teams were overpaying MKG, Marvin, McBob, Batum etc... We are in a completely different area now.

If PJ, Monk, Graham, Ball, Bridges all don't develop.. guess what we aren't good in either scenario. Might as well try to capitalize in case they do develop.

[Braggins]

I do like this quote from David Aldridge in an Athletic piece just released today.....

David Aldridge: Of course, it’s an overpay..... But people act like players and agents are lining up to come to Charlotte. They are not. Who, exactly, did you think the Hornets would be in on next summer, after they get out from under Batum’s and Cody Zeller’s deals? Giannis? (I don’t think Thanasis Antetokounmpo would sign there, either.) Kawhi? Rudy Gobert? All due respect; they couldn’t get Montrezl Harrell to sign for more money than he got from the Lakers this year; they had ZERO shot at the blue-chip free agents next year. So why not go in a year early, take a chance on Hayward, see what he and LaMelo Ball can do with P.J. Washington and Devonte’ Graham and Miles Bridges, and see if he can resurrect Utah Gordon? If not… dudes. It’s the NBA. You can trade anybody.

I think after the sticker shock wears off and we all settle in, this is kinda where we are at as a franchise.

I would have preferred Christian Wood, Rodney Hood or a younger player that can grow with the rebuild, but it is what it is. We saw Montrezl balk at us for more dough. At least it's not Westbrook, Paul or that insane deal that was given to Morris by LA.

True stars won't sign here so we have to massively overpay mid tier guys at the end of their career is an insane line of logic. Our lack of ability to make good free agent signings is why we have to try to find stars in the draft and then add role players around them in free agency. Blowing your load now on a guy that puts you in the 7-10 range is about the worst possible thing a franchise in this position can do. It will work out well enough I guess if LaMelo turns out to be a superstar, but it still wouldn't be ideal, and doing this now when we have no clue at all if LaMelo is even going to be a decent NBA player, let alone a star, is just insane and puts us at a huge risk of ending up right back where we were two years ago after the Batum signing bombed.

[GiggitySmalls]

If this were 4/100...I'd be feeling much better about it..im ok with it but not super happy. Also not pessimistic because even if hayward has lost a step hes still better then batum was ever in his career. Idk im gonna roll with it for now.

[Soul Rebel]

I do like this quote from David Aldridge in an Athletic piece just released today.....

David Aldridge: Of course, it’s an overpay..... But people act like players and agents are lining up to come to Charlotte. They are not. Who, exactly, did you think the Hornets would be in on next summer, after they get out from under Batum’s and Cody Zeller’s deals? Giannis? (I don’t think Thanasis Antetokounmpo would sign there, either.) Kawhi? Rudy Gobert? All due respect; they couldn’t get Montrezl Harrell to sign for more money than he got from the Lakers this year; they had ZERO shot at the blue-chip free agents next year. So why not go in a year early, take a chance on Hayward, see what he and LaMelo Ball can do with P.J. Washington and Devonte’ Graham and Miles Bridges, and see if he can resurrect Utah Gordon? If not… dudes. It’s the NBA. You can trade anybody.

I think after the sticker shock wears off and we all settle in, this is kinda where we are at as a franchise.

I would have preferred Christian Wood, Rodney Hood or a younger player that can grow with the rebuild, but it is what it is. We saw Montrezl balk at us for more dough. At least it's not Westbrook, Paul or that insane deal that was given to Morris by LA.

True stars won't sign here so we have to massively overpay mid tier guys at the end of their career is an insane line of logic. Our lack of ability to make good free agent signings is why we have to try to find stars in the draft and then add role players around them in free agency. Blowing your load now on a guy that puts you in the 7-10 range is about the worst possible thing a franchise in this position can do. It will work out well enough I guess if LaMelo turns out to be a superstar, but it still wouldn't be ideal, and doing this now when we have no clue at all if LaMelo is even going to be a decent NBA player, let alone a star, is just insane and puts us at a huge risk of ending up right back where we were two years ago after the Batum signing bombed.

Would you not agree that we were in the 8-10 range as the season concluded this past year? An extra year of maturation for our current young guys + 'Melo and the 2nd rounders would not make us a few wins better without Hayward?

Replacing Batum's sorry carcass with Hayward should vault us into the 5/6 range in the East. Not world beaters, but also a tier better than the "8th seed hamster wheel" that we've been.

[amcoolio]

There’s no excuse for waiving Batum; attach a pick with him and Zeller and send them to OKC for Horford. 9 mil a year for 3 years for a dead cap causality is inexcusable

[tondi123]

I do like this quote from David Aldridge in an Athletic piece just released today.....

David Aldridge: Of course, it’s an overpay..... But people act like players and agents are lining up to come to Charlotte. They are not. Who, exactly, did you think the Hornets would be in on next summer, after they get out from under Batum’s and Cody Zeller’s deals? Giannis? (I don’t think Thanasis Antetokounmpo would sign there, either.) Kawhi? Rudy Gobert? All due respect; they couldn’t get Montrezl Harrell to sign for more money than he got from the Lakers this year; they had ZERO shot at the blue-chip free agents next year. So why not go in a year early, take a chance on Hayward, see what he and LaMelo Ball can do with P.J. Washington and Devonte’ Graham and Miles Bridges, and see if he can resurrect Utah Gordon? If not… dudes. It’s the NBA. You can trade anybody.

I think after the sticker shock wears off and we all settle in, this is kinda where we are at as a franchise.

I would have preferred Christian Wood, Rodney Hood or a younger player that can grow with the rebuild, but it is what it is. We saw Montrezl balk at us for more dough. At least it's not Westbrook, Paul or that insane deal that was given to Morris by LA.

And I think this from Aldridge is the single biggest reason we signed him. We'd probably already tested the waters with some of the guys coming up next year and were rebuffed. Its an overpay for a guy who, even at his peak, probably wasn't worth that kind of money but he has a chance to be a very good player for us the next four years. How many guys would we can realistically say would have been better would we have ever been able to convince to play here? Don't love it but it gets Batums rotting corpse off the bench and add a guy who at least has always appeared to give a damn. For that I will be eternally grateful.