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Fool Me Twice: The Gordon Hayward Thread

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Re: Hayward to Charlotte 4yr/120 million 

Post#241 » by Absinthe » Sat Nov 21, 2020 11:36 pm

JMAC3 wrote:
Braggins wrote:This probably going to end up the worst contract of this offseason.


I guess you could be right here, in a year where not many teams have cap space and not many free agents it kind of has limited the amount of money a deal can be worth.

Think Christian Wood at 3/41 has a chance to be a bad deal. Shows me something that Detroit did not believe in him after a year in their franchise.

Jordan Clarkson 3/52 has a chance, a lot for a bench player.

Galo 3/61 has a chance, especially if Atlanta has some younger wings develop and Galo is role player.

Bertans 5/80 is pretty bad for a guy who can't dribble, pass or play defense.

Harris 4/75. I like Joe Harris, but that is still a lot of money.

Malik Beasley 4/60 could be bad for a team that just spent the number 1 pick on the same position for a guy who was just in trouble for a gun charge (in a time when he should be on his best behavior, how do you think he will act now that you give him money money.

Hayward got a bigger deal than all these players, but he is also just better than all these players.


I would have preferred any of those contracts over the Hayward signing other than maybe Bertans. And even in that situation he would have immediately been Charlotte’s best perimeter shooter without question. Guys that can shoot get paid.

Give me Galo on the Hornets on that contract and I would have loved it. They wouldn’t have had to stretch Batum in that situation and I promise you he will have similar production to Hayward and he’s never suffered a catastrophic injury like Hayward too.
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Re: Hayward to Charlotte 4yr/120 million 

Post#242 » by Braggins » Sat Nov 21, 2020 11:39 pm

Absinthe wrote:
Spoiler:
JMAC3 wrote:
Braggins wrote:This probably going to end up the worst contract of this offseason.


I guess you could be right here, in a year where not many teams have cap space and not many free agents it kind of has limited the amount of money a deal can be worth.

Think Christian Wood at 3/41 has a chance to be a bad deal. Shows me something that Detroit did not believe in him after a year in their franchise.

Jordan Clarkson 3/52 has a chance, a lot for a bench player.

Galo 3/61 has a chance, especially if Atlanta has some younger wings develop and Galo is role player.

Bertans 5/80 is pretty bad for a guy who can't dribble, pass or play defense.

Harris 4/75. I like Joe Harris, but that is still a lot of money.

Malik Beasley 4/60 could be bad for a team that just spent the number 1 pick on the same position for a guy who was just in trouble for a gun charge (in a time when he should be on his best behavior, how do you think he will act now that you give him money money.

Hayward got a bigger deal than all these players, but he is also just better than all these players.


I would have preferred any of those contracts over the Hayward signing other than maybe Bertans. And even in that situation he would have immediately been Charlotte’s best perimeter shooter without question. Guys that can shoot get paid.

Give me Galo on the Hornets on that contract and I would have loved it. They wouldn’t have had to stretch Batum in that situation and I promise you he will have similar production to Hayward and he’s never suffered a catastrophic injury like Hayward too.

I have a feeling the Hayward deal is going to look even worse once Bogdonavic signs his deal.
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Re: Hayward to Charlotte 4yr/120 million 

Post#243 » by JMAC3 » Sat Nov 21, 2020 11:39 pm

My guess honestly is that we were working a sign and trade out for Hayward with Boston, but they were asking for too much.

Something involving two of Rozier/Zeller and Bridges/First Rounder. Which is completely ridiculous like what they wanted from Pacers.

Ainge probably thought they had us by the balls and then Mitch just said **** it and stretched Batum.
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Re: Hayward to Charlotte 4yr/120 million 

Post#244 » by JMAC3 » Sat Nov 21, 2020 11:42 pm

Absinthe wrote:[
I would have preferred any of those contracts over the Hayward signing other than maybe Bertans.


Only time will tell, think there is a chance Beasley ends up out of the league. or Bertans is a bench player averaging 9 ppg, they have Rui and Deni now so there is a good chance Bertans doesn't start.
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Re: Hayward to Charlotte 4yr/120 million 

Post#245 » by Braggins » Sat Nov 21, 2020 11:44 pm

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Re: Hayward to Charlotte 4yr/120 million 

Post#246 » by Absinthe » Sat Nov 21, 2020 11:49 pm

Rozier had to know he was gone when they drafted Ball. He’s not a bad player, but Charlotte can’t develop two young backcourt players with Rozier there.
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Re: Hayward to Charlotte 4yr/120 million 

Post#247 » by Braggins » Sat Nov 21, 2020 11:52 pm

Absinthe wrote:Rozier had to know he was gone when they drafted Ball. He’s not a bad player, but Charlotte can’t develop two young backcourt players with Rozier there.

If hes really traded I wonder if its part of a sign & trade deal for Hayward, or a separate deal? Either scenario could be at least a small silver lining depending on the specifics.
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Re: Hayward to Charlotte 4yr/120 million 

Post#248 » by Marino » Sun Nov 22, 2020 12:02 am

Braggins wrote:
Absinthe wrote:Rozier had to know he was gone when they drafted Ball. He’s not a bad player, but Charlotte can’t develop two young backcourt players with Rozier there.

If hes really traded I wonder if its part of a sign & trade deal for Hayward, or a separate deal? Either scenario could be at least a small silver lining depending on the specifics.

I could see it being a separate deal. **** Boston, they don’t deserve nice things


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Re: Hayward to Charlotte 4yr/120 million 

Post#249 » by BigSlam » Sun Nov 22, 2020 12:03 am

Just got home on from the return 7 hour road trip so haven't had a chance to read through this thread yet - and only posted "gross" and a comment on the 4 year guaranteed money during a gas break but I will say this:

I like Hayward - a lot. I think it's hard not to like the guy.

Seems like a really modest, no fuss type of player who doesn't cause any headaches.
Seems very much like a team orientated guy.
Plays both ends of the court equally hard.
Has a high BBIQ.
Can do a lot of different things on the offensive end from shooting, scoring, creating his own, creating for others.
Handles the ball pretty well.

But at 30 and with the phase our team appeared to be in (rebuild, load up on young talent - including adding 4 draft picks 48 hours ago) now on Earth does he fit in with that model?

That's SO much cash and SO much time to invest into a dude who would be wayyyyyyy better suited on a team like the Raptors or the Warriors or the Bucks or the Heat or the Sixers who are looking to challenge right away?

This just seems so stupidly short sighted by Mitch and MJ. I just can't get my head around it.
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Re: Hayward to Charlotte 4yr/120 million 

Post#250 » by yosemiteben » Sun Nov 22, 2020 12:10 am

JMAC3 wrote:My guess honestly is that we were working a sign and trade out for Hayward with Boston, but they were asking for too much.

Something involving two of Rozier/Zeller and Bridges/First Rounder. Which is completely ridiculous like what they wanted from Pacers.

Ainge probably thought they had us by the balls and then Mitch just said **** it and stretched Batum.

This is my current operating theory
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Re: Hayward to Charlotte 4yr/120 million 

Post#251 » by wilson115 » Sun Nov 22, 2020 12:11 am

Wouldn't Hayward need to pass a physical before this becomes final?
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Re: Hayward to Charlotte 4yr/120 million 

Post#252 » by LofJ » Sun Nov 22, 2020 12:15 am

I'm just going to enjoy the fact that we completely **** over Ainge. Your greed bit you in the ass once again, but this time we had a hand in it. I'm sorry Kemba, but you shouldn't have signed with a team that has a snake for a GM.
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Re: Hayward to Charlotte 4yr/120 million 

Post#253 » by vorbis » Sun Nov 22, 2020 12:28 am

I guess a 4-year contract isn't the end of the world. /rationalizing
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Re: Hayward to Charlotte 4yr/120 million 

Post#254 » by Braggins » Sun Nov 22, 2020 12:31 am

LofJ wrote:I'm just going to enjoy the fact that we completely **** over Ainge. Your greed bit you in the ass once again, but this time we had a hand in it. I'm sorry Kemba, but you shouldn't have signed with a team that has a snake for a GM.

He should have went to Dallas to play with Luka. Don't get me wrong, hes in a much better position in Boston than he ever was going to be in Charlotte, but a Luka/Porzingis/Kemba core with all the good role players Dallas has been able to pull out of their ass would be sick.
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Re: Hayward to Charlotte 4yr/120 million 

Post#255 » by LofJ » Sun Nov 22, 2020 12:35 am

Braggins wrote:
LofJ wrote:I'm just going to enjoy the fact that we completely **** over Ainge. Your greed bit you in the ass once again, but this time we had a hand in it. I'm sorry Kemba, but you shouldn't have signed with a team that has a snake for a GM.

He should have went to Dallas to play with Luka. Don't get me wrong, hes in a much better position in Boston than he ever was going to be in Charlotte, but a Luka/Porzingis/Kemba core with all the good role players Dallas has been able to pull out of their ass would be sick.


Amen, if the Mavericks could ever all be healthy that team would be up a top 3 seed in the West with a chance to make some noise. It's where I wanted Kemba to sign.
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Re: Hayward to Charlotte 4yr/120 million 

Post#256 » by BlackOutBuzz » Sun Nov 22, 2020 12:44 am

Gonna bet this is structured like the Rozier contract: declining in nature. Stretching Batum creates enough room to give the biggest amount in year 1. Assuming $120M is the exact total, expect something like this:

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$32.4M
$30.8M
$29.2M
$27.6M

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Re: Hayward to Charlotte 4yr/120 million 

Post#257 » by JDR720 » Sun Nov 22, 2020 12:57 am

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Re: Hayward to Charlotte 4yr/120 million 

Post#258 » by BigSlam » Sun Nov 22, 2020 12:58 am

Does Boston have a C yet?

Could the Hayward deal be a S&T with Zeller and Terry going back to Boston?

That would give Boston the C they need - and you know Walker would vouch for him - and additional guard depth from a guy who knows their system and proved last year how valuable he is?

Plus we have a bunch of bigs now with Vern, Nicky Dicky, and Biz along with point guard depth with Tae and Melo?
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Re: Hayward to Charlotte 4yr/120 million 

Post#259 » by BlackOutBuzz » Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:00 am

Took the afternoon to process my thoughts. I never posted it but Hayward was one of the only name free agents I could get behind. I didn't really think he'd leave Boston, and that all this was a leverage play, and I also didn't wanna abandon the rebuild, but it was at least interesting.

One thing that seems clear now is that this team really was taking a long look at Westbrook/making a splash. The darkest timeline version of this ends with Westbrook, Wiseman, and without Bridges and at least one future pick.

Again: would've preferred to stay the course, but I understand the move. I actually kinda appreciate the opportunistic way the team moved in to grab an unexpectedly available former all-star when only 3 other teams had the capspace to sign him. Next year's free agency will be a lot stronger, but with a lot more teams that'll be more attractive than us. Bird in the hand and all.

I'm bummed about the decision to seemingly abandon the rebuild, but I don't think this a complete negative. There's something to be said for remaining competitive during a retooling phase, so overall I'd say I'm still optimistic for the future.

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Re: Hayward to Charlotte 4yr/120 million 

Post#260 » by JMAC3 » Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:01 am

Pacers were offering him at minimum 4/100 from reports. Pacers were giving up a really good asset to get him (Turner plus something).

Knicks were offering him "more" than Pacers from reports so I would assume it is close to our offer.

If he signed this deal with same deal with Toronto or Miami I think people would be fine with it.

So it is not whether he is good or worth it or whatever. It is simply is he a good fit for timeline.

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