Fool Me Twice: The Gordon Hayward Thread

[Soulcatcher33]

If we can get off Rozier's contract and not stretch Batum then I'm much more okay with Hayward deal. Despite his good statistical year last year I think he regresses and isn't worth what he's being paid next two years.

You are going to be pleasantly surprised then. Hayward could have been doing a lot more on the Celtics this past season when he was healthy. Young guys coming up and him basically being unselfish and team oriented to a fault is why he fell to a "4th" option when he was clearly a better and more polished player than Jaylen Brown. The difference is Brown basically looked for his shot every time he got the ball and Hayward was always looking for the best shot for the team. On the Hornets he's now the main guy, period, and he will have his best season since 2017. Look for him to put up 20-22ppg, 6rpg, 5apg while playing his usual solid defense this upcoming season. I'd say there is almost zero chance he regresses and instead improves unless it's because of injuries.

He's certainly not worth 30 million a year over the next 4 seasons, but as long as he's healthy the team will definitely get at least a good two all star level seasons out of him.

[Liver_Pooty]

If we can get off Rozier's contract and not stretch Batum then I'm much more okay with Hayward deal. Despite his good statistical year last year I think he regresses and isn't worth what he's being paid next two years.

You are going to be pleasantly surprised then. Hayward could have been doing a lot more on the Celtics this past season when he was healthy. Young guys coming up and him basically being unselfish and team oriented to a fault is why he fell to a "4th" option when he was clearly a better and more polished player than Jaylen Brown. The difference is Brown basically looked for his shot every time he got the ball and Hayward was always looking for the best shot for the team. On the Hornets he's now the main guy, period, and he will have his best season since 2017. Look for him to put up 20-22ppg, 6rpg, 5apg while playing his usual solid defense this upcoming season. I'd say there is almost zero chance he regresses and instead improves unless it's because of injuries.

He's certainly not worth 30 million a year over the next 4 seasons, but as long as he's healthy the team will definitely get at least a good two all star level seasons out of him.

Thanks bud. Needed to see that

[DY_nasty]

ffs how is he hitting all-star status now after injuries when he only made it once before?

a lot of guys don't mail it in til they get paid

Well good news then, because Hayward is not “a lot of guys”. Dude has a track record.
He has been paid 3 times now. Never mailed it in even after being injured horribly.

good thing we guaranteed his contract just to be safe then

can't believe this team just happily repeats mistakes and people clap for it

[Soulcatcher33]

If we can get off Rozier's contract and not stretch Batum then I'm much more okay with Hayward deal. Despite his good statistical year last year I think he regresses and isn't worth what he's being paid next two years.

You are going to be pleasantly surprised then. Hayward could have been doing a lot more on the Celtics this past season when he was healthy. Young guys coming up and him basically being unselfish and team oriented to a fault is why he fell to a "4th" option when he was clearly a better and more polished player than Jaylen Brown. The difference is Brown basically looked for his shot every time he got the ball and Hayward was always looking for the best shot for the team. On the Hornets he's now the main guy, period, and he will have his best season since 2017. Look for him to put up 20-22ppg, 6rpg, 5apg while playing his usual solid defense this upcoming season. I'd say there is almost zero chance he regresses and instead improves unless it's because of injuries.

He's certainly not worth 30 million a year over the next 4 seasons, but as long as he's healthy the team will definitely get at least a good two all star level seasons out of him.

Thanks bud. Needed to see that

Oh wait, I think he was actually talking about Rozier and I just wasn't paying attention. lol On a Rozier note, I was elated when you guys gave him that deal and he left the Celtics. I couldn't stand his arrogant and entitled ass.

If nothing else, Hayward is a great guy for a young team to learn from. He's probably the most fundamentally sound wing in the league and has a great work ethic. There are lot worse guys young players can be learning from. The deal doesn't make a whole lot of sense from the Hornets perspective, but I think everyone has given up on trying to figure out what the Hornets front office is thinking. Hayward, health permitting, will be an all star level player, though.

[JMAC3]

Here is one way to look at things- this exercise really is looking at free agency next summer

Assume instead of signing Hayward to this deal we just decided to give out two 1 year deals for 10 million each. For purposes of this exercise it does not matter but for this lets assume it is Saric and Whiteside.

Essentially we would be using them just as 1 year place holders to carry our cap space over to next summer.

We could be walking into next summer with 65 million in cap space. Sounds good right?

Here are free agents.
Kawhi
PG13
Giannis
Lebron
Rudy Gobert
Oladipo
Holiday
Lowry
Derozan
Mike Conley
Andre Drummond
Steven Adams

Are any of these realistic possibilities? If so we would competing vs 20 other teams for these free agents instead of the 3 we were competing with on Hayward. Also, do you really trust the front office with this much cap space in one summer? We have already shown it takes a slight overpay to get guys here instead of other locations.


Instead we signed Hayward and stretched Batum

So we are looking at 30 million + 9 million stretch so instead of having 65 million next offseason we will only have 25 million.

Is it awful if you look at it like this?

[wilson115]

He walked away from $34M and an EC finalist for a bigger role. No questions about Hayward's desire, it's putting him in a position to succeed knowing what we're getting. (30 y.o. with near-career-ending injuries.)

he walked away from 34 mil for a year where he once again didn't make a difference for his team to a team that made excuses for Batum and 120 guaranteed

there is no better 'one last contract' scenario for the guy. and im not even mad at him...

the FO cemented the fact that they have no clue what they're doing. and hornets fans are trying to rationalize this instead of calling out mitch and MJ out. for what

"didn't make a difference" is harsh seeing he averaged 17.5 on 50/38/85 last year. Not to say the FO gets a pass given the injury history and the state of the roster.

[LofJ]

The Batum stretch is what makes this awful. $9 million is a lot of money, that's a good rotation player that the team will not be able to sign.

[JMAC3]

The Batum stretch is what makes this awful. $9 million is a lot of money, that's a good rotation player that the team will not be able to sign.

You keep saying this... their are limited options to avoid this.

1. Not sign Hayward
2. Give Boston Zeller or Rozier back for him
3. Attach a first round pick or Miles Bridges to Batum in a salary dump to another team

Or

4. Eat the 9 million for Batum

[LofJ]

The Batum stretch is what makes this awful. $9 million is a lot of money, that's a good rotation player that the team will not be able to sign.

You keep saying this... their are limited options to avoid this.

1. Not sign Hayward
2. Give Boston Zeller or Rozier back for him
3. Attach a first round pick or Miles Bridges to Batum in a salary dump to another team

Or

4. Eat the 9 million for Batum

Number 2 all day everyday, send Cody to Boston.

[amcoolio]

The Batum stretch is what makes this awful. $9 million is a lot of money, that's a good rotation player that the team will not be able to sign.

You keep saying this... their are limited options to avoid this.

1. Not sign Hayward
2. Give Boston Zeller or Rozier back for him
3. Attach a first round pick or Miles Bridges to Batum in a salary dump to another team

Or

4. Eat the 9 million for Batum

Miami signed Jimmy to max with 0 million in cap space. If Mitch was any good at his job he'd be creative enough to open 9 million in cap space.

[JMAC3]

The Batum stretch is what makes this awful. $9 million is a lot of money, that's a good rotation player that the team will not be able to sign.

You keep saying this... their are limited options to avoid this.

1. Not sign Hayward
2. Give Boston Zeller or Rozier back for him
3. Attach a first round pick or Miles Bridges to Batum in a salary dump to another team

Or

4. Eat the 9 million for Batum

Number 2 all day everyday, send Cody to Boston.

Gotcha, we would have no center in this scenario and no additional cap space to sign one. Unless you think we can find a starting center for 4.7 million. Also, this assumes Boston would of wanted Zeller, which we aren't sure if they did.

[JMAC3]

The Batum stretch is what makes this awful. $9 million is a lot of money, that's a good rotation player that the team will not be able to sign.

You keep saying this... their are limited options to avoid this.

1. Not sign Hayward
2. Give Boston Zeller or Rozier back for him
3. Attach a first round pick or Miles Bridges to Batum in a salary dump to another team

Or

4. Eat the 9 million for Batum

Miami signed Jimmy to max with 0 million in cap space. If Mitch was any good at his job he'd be creative enough to open 9 million in cap space.

Yeah Miami gave up a Josh Richardson and a first round draft pick to make it happen. I mean if you want Mitch to give away Miles Bridges and a first to dump Batum I am sure he could do it lol.

[LofJ]

You keep saying this... their are limited options to avoid this.

1. Not sign Hayward
2. Give Boston Zeller or Rozier back for him
3. Attach a first round pick or Miles Bridges to Batum in a salary dump to another team

Or

4. Eat the 9 million for Batum

Number 2 all day everyday, send Cody to Boston.

Gotcha, we would have no center in this scenario and no additional cap space to sign one. Unless you think we can find a starting center for 4.7 million. Also, this assumes Boston would of wanted Zeller, which we aren't sure if they did.

We could structure Hayward's salary to have more than $4.7 million to spend. We need to move on from Zeller anyway and there are still some solid options in fee agency that we get pretty cheaply.

[Chapelchilla]

Here is one way to look at things- this exercise really is looking at free agency next summer

Assume instead of signing Hayward to this deal we just decided to give out two 1 year deals for 10 million each. For purposes of this exercise it does not matter but for this lets assume it is Saric and Whiteside.

Essentially we would be using them just as 1 year place holders to carry our cap space over to next summer.

We could be walking into next summer with 65 million in cap space. Sounds good right?

Here are free agents.
Kawhi
PG13
Giannis
Lebron
Rudy Gobert
Oladipo
Holiday
Lowry
Derozan
Mike Conley
Andre Drummond
Steven Adams

Are any of these realistic possibilities? If so we would competing vs 20 other teams for these free agents instead of the 3 we were competing with on Hayward. Also, do you really trust the front office with this much cap space in one summer? We have already shown it takes a slight overpay to get guys here instead of other locations.


Instead we signed Hayward and stretched Batum

So we are looking at 30 million + 9 million stretch so instead of having 65 million next offseason we will only have 25 million.

Is it awful if you look at it like this?

True, and Hayward may be better then half the guys on that list, especially considering his nearly perfect fit on this team and leadership qualities he brings. The best guys on there would never even consider signing here yesterday.
Would it be easier to get someone else to sign here now? I think so. Maybe the next off season a guy like Harrell thinks hmm, they are building something down there. Ball and Hayward already there starting to win more then lose, they like to pass a lot, I could really fit in, get my touches and further my career in Charlotte.
You don’t build a brick house from the top down.

[Soul Rebel]

Seeing the reaction to the Hayward signing, I can't imagine the reaction if we traded for Westbrook.

[BigSlam]

Seeing the reaction to the Hayward signing, I can't imagine the reaction if we traded for Westbrook.

Interestingly enough, it's about the same amount of overall money - but Westbrook's contract expires a year earlier.

[Braggins]

Number 2 all day everyday, send Cody to Boston.

Gotcha, we would have no center in this scenario and no additional cap space to sign one. Unless you think we can find a starting center for 4.7 million. Also, this assumes Boston would of wanted Zeller, which we aren't sure if they did.

We could structure Hayward's salary to have more than $4.7 million to spend. We need to move on from Zeller anyway and there are still some solid options in fee agency that we get pretty cheaply.

After looking at our cap breakdown over the next few years, I actually want us to send out Rozier and keep Zeller. We need Zeller this season more than Rozier and I think we'd be better off keeping the contract that comes off the books after next season.

[driveandkick]

Seeing the reaction to the Hayward signing, I can't imagine the reaction if we traded for Westbrook.

Interestingly enough, it's about the same amount of overall money - but Westbrook's contract expires a year earlier.

One is an inefficient, ball-dominant player and the other just shot 50% and is one of the better secondary playmakers in the league. The development of our young players is priority #1. Is Russ overall a better player? Yes. But if you want to bring in a big name that is best for the future of our team it’s Hayward and it’s not even close.

[luciano-davidwesley]

I think doing a sign and trade helps out Boston more than it helps us. They either get an asset like Rozier or a trade exception, either way both are better than getting nothing for Hayward.

Ya, I agree. Like, I think we definitely need to figure something out to avoid stretching Batum, but Rozier is a positive asset that I think we really need to use to find another piece that fits our roster better. If we ship Zeller that would be fine as long as we have a backup plan at center, but I really don't want that backup plan to be signing Whiteside. It would be nice to keep Cody as a backup for one last year if possible, so I think I'd rather just throw some 2nd rounders with Batum if Boston would do that, but I'm not sure if that is enough incentive for them.

I think Batum has positive value. Boston should be the one giving picks because they'll probably be able to flip him for a first rounder at or before the trade deadline.

If this report of our GM calling Ainge's bluff is true I'd almost call this genius if we hadn't committed to 4 years of Hayward.

[Effigy]

You guys will hate this, but now I think you should package Bismack and Rozier for Horford (but not add any picks, lol) I think Al and Gordon are such high bbiq guys, they’d be great to put around Ball and your other players. I think Horford will look much better when he’s not playing with Embid.