Fool Me Twice: The Gordon Hayward Thread

[luciano-davidwesley]

You guys will hate this, but now I think you should package Bismack and Rozier for Horford (but not add any picks, lol) I think Al and Gordon are such high bbiq guys, they’d be great to put around Ball and your other players. I think Horford will look much better when he’s not playing with Embid.

Biz is an unsigned free agent.

[Diop]

You guys will hate this, but now I think you should package Bismack and Rozier for Horford (but not add any picks, lol) I think Al and Gordon are such high bbiq guys, they’d be great to put around Ball and your other players. I think Horford will look much better when he’s not playing with Embid.

Biz is an unsigned free agent.

someone on the trade board mentioned Horford for Zeller and Batum. Part of me would be tempted because it stops us from stretching Batum, Horford would be a great mentor for our bigs and I never like our chances of signing a big name next off season.
Horford was valued at Boston, really helped the team, thats how he got that contract. Then he was put in a terrible position at Philly and all of a sudded his value is crap.

[Spin Move]

Boston Fan here. Hayward is a good player and he will make your team better and be a good example for your young players, I think he nets you an extra 5 wins. Short term this improves the team and long term I think it will be good for the development of some of your young players to play with someone like him, I understand the thoguht process in bringing him in, both in terms of bringing legitimacy to the organization by getting a big name to sign and for basketball reasons.

With that said,
A.
1. Miami 2 Milwaukee3 Brooklyn 4Boston 5Philly 6,Toronto, 7 Indy are all much better then your team going into the season, injuries happen and you are now on par with Orlando to chase the #8 seed.
B. Given next years draft and free agent class signing him was a horrible idea, you guys were obly a handful of wins better then the cavs and could have let your young guys played and perhaps gotten a top 5 pick in a loaded draft and had the cap room to sign 2 free agents.
C. By stretching Batum you lose cap space the next 2 years when you could have had a chance at some better free agents then GH, maybe they come maybe they don't but know his cap number is haunting you for 2 additional years.
D. The contract was an overpay in both years and dollars and GH is not a superstar. Giving a 30 year old a 4 year deal at at money really risky, forget the ankle becuase that is a freak accident not likley to occur but the minor injuries had started to add up and his recovery times were longer then expected. I don;t think getting swept in the 1st round is worth the opportunity cost.

Overally I think this was a very shortsighted move. I think it absolutely makes you better. but not at the right time. There is just not enough high end talent on the roster to make a move like this. I will be rooting for my KU kid Devone Grahm and Gordo to do well but I really think long term the team would have been better waiting a year to make a move like this given the opportunity to add better players next year.

[Teal25]

It’s the 4th year fully guaranteed for me. 3/90 million with the savings from the escrow for the next 3 years is a decent contract to take a chance on him especially if we can get off Rozier’s 2 years but the 4th year is just to much. Luckily he isn’t a difference maker and we will still compete for #4 draft pick with Cleveland, and Chicago. Don’t think we were ever going to out tank DET, OKC and NYK.

[Spin Move]

Here is one way to look at things- this exercise really is looking at free agency next summer

Assume instead of signing Hayward to this deal we just decided to give out two 1 year deals for 10 million each. For purposes of this exercise it does not matter but for this lets assume it is Saric and Whiteside.

Essentially we would be using them just as 1 year place holders to carry our cap space over to next summer.

We could be walking into next summer with 65 million in cap space. Sounds good right?

Here are free agents.
Kawhi
PG13
Giannis
Lebron
Rudy Gobert
Oladipo
Holiday
Lowry
Derozan
Mike Conley
Andre Drummond
Steven Adams

Are any of these realistic possibilities? If so we would competing vs 20 other teams for these free agents instead of the 3 we were competing with on Hayward. Also, do you really trust the front office with this much cap space in one summer? We have already shown it takes a slight overpay to get guys here instead of other locations.


Instead we signed Hayward and stretched Batum

So we are looking at 30 million + 9 million stretch so instead of having 65 million next offseason we will only have 25 million.

Is it awful if you look at it like this?

Yes becuase you are losing the draft position. you are a Terry Rozier and Devonte Grahm collision that makes them both miss 15 games from the top pick in the NBA draft. Ball is not going to be a net positive player next year (I think he will be eventually) The opportunity cost in the draft order is what is killing you as much as he lack of cap space. The play was to stand pat, Tank hard for 1 year, trade either rozier or graham and Build around the core of Ball, +2021 top 5 pick, you already have 3 really nice supporing peices in Bridges Washinton and Grahm. I don't see this team as contrsucted winning more then 35 games next year (72 game season) So yes, I tink it is bad if you look at it like that. Patience is a virtue. There is something to be said about making the playoffs, and I thnk you have a shot at it, but even getting there you have no chance to win a round, waiting 1 more year would have been smarter espeically becuase with not full stadiums this year there would be a smaller loss at the gate then a normal tank season.

[Spin Move]

It’s the 4th year fully guaranteed for me. 3/90 million with the savings from the escrow for the next 3 years is a decent contract to take a chance on him especially if we can get off Rozier’s 2 years but the 4th year is just to much. Luckily he isn’t a difference maker and we will still compete for #4 draft pick with Cleveland, and Chicago. Don’t think we were ever going to out tank DET, OKC and NYK.

He actually is good though, I think you are understimating the loss of draft position as the fourth option he put up 17.5 now he got much easier looks in boston then he will in charolette but he is a really good passer and I do think he nets you 5 wins. He averages 5.3 winshares a year over his 10 year career, so I think its a decent bet he costs you 3 or 4 spots....Then again he might get injured so maybe not.

[Teal25]

Boston Fan here. Hayward is a good player and he will make your team better and be a good example for your young players, I think he nets you an extra 5 wins. Short term this improves the team and long term I think it will be good for the development of some of your young players to play with someone like him, I understand the thoguht process in bringing him in, both in terms of bringing legitimacy to the organization by getting a big name to sign and for basketball reasons.

With that said,
A.
1. Miami 2 Milwaukee3 Brooklyn 4Boston 5Philly 6,Toronto, 7 Indy are all much better then your team going into the season, injuries happen and you are now on par with Orlando to chase the #8 seed.
B. Given next years draft and free agent class signing him was a horrible idea, you guys were obly a handful of wins better then the cavs and could have let your young guys played and perhaps gotten a top 5 pick in a loaded draft and had the cap room to sign 2 free agents.
C. By stretching Batum you lose cap space the next 2 years when you could have had a chance at some better free agents then GH, maybe they come maybe they don't but know his cap number is haunting you for 2 additional years.
D. The contract was an overpay in both years and dollars and GH is not a superstar. Giving a 30 year old a 4 year deal at at money really risky, forget the ankle becuase that is a freak accident not likley to occur but the minor injuries had started to add up and his recovery times were longer then expected. I don;t think getting swept in the 1st round is worth the opportunity cost.

Overally I think this was a very shortsighted move. I think it absolutely makes you better. but not at the right time. There is just not enough high end talent on the roster to make a move like this. I will be rooting for my KU kid Devone Grahm and Gordo to do well but I really think long term the team would have been better waiting a year to make a move like this given the opportunity to add better players next year.

This is what I’m saying. This is literally the perfect year to tank when no fans will be in the arena. I still think the Wizards are going to be better and not sure why so many people are counting them out. They’ll probably get the 8th seed minimum. I’ve been like Orlando won’t make the playoffs every year they’ve made it. Then there’s Cleveland with Love trying to get traded and Drummond in a contract year. The best thing this signing does for us is give our top 3 draft pick a developer player but it’s such an overpay. I would’ve rather went after someone younger and cheaper like Bogdan.

[Soca]

Kupchak's decision making has gotten worse and worse. He didn't learn anything from the Deng/Mozgov contracts.

[Liver_Pooty]

We weren't picking top 5 in next years draft without Hayward. No clue where some of you are getting this stuff.

[-Ian-]

Kupchak's decision making has gotten worse and worse. He didn't learn anything from the Deng/Mozgov contracts.

Hayward is arguably better than those two, though.

[Radu_Hornets]

Since no one is talking about this:

We are apparently still talking with the celtics for a sign and trade.
Our front office might be playing 4D Chess by saying we would waive Batum to make room for Hayward.

Read on Twitter

Getting Hayward without cutting Batum changes the whole story.

[CuseMayne]

Since no one is talking about this:

We are apparently still talking with the celtics for a sign and trade.
Our front office might be playing 4D Chess by saying we would waive Batum to make room for Hayward.

Read on Twitter

Getting Hayward without cutting Batum changes the whole story.

Interesting. I also just noticed on the hornets site on nba.com that there's no mention of Gordon Hayward's signing. I guess nothing's been set in stone and a s&t is still possible that makes the money much more reasonable for us? That'd be a powerful move to show/bluff the willingness to stretch Batum to secure Hayward and get Ainge scrambling if that was actually the plan...I doubt it but would be elated if true, as otherwise we're pretty much the laughing stock we've been this entire time (deservedly so by repeating the same mistake again(Al Jefferson) and again(Batum) and again(Hayward)).

What a wild past few days...

[316Hornets]

Boston Fan here. Hayward is a good player and he will make your team better and be a good example for your young players, I think he nets you an extra 5 wins. Short term this improves the team and long term I think it will be good for the development of some of your young players to play with someone like him, I understand the thoguht process in bringing him in, both in terms of bringing legitimacy to the organization by getting a big name to sign and for basketball reasons.

With that said,
A.
1. Miami 2 Milwaukee3 Brooklyn 4Boston 5Philly 6,Toronto, 7 Indy are all much better then your team going into the season, injuries happen and you are now on par with Orlando to chase the #8 seed.
B. Given next years draft and free agent class signing him was a horrible idea, you guys were obly a handful of wins better then the cavs and could have let your young guys played and perhaps gotten a top 5 pick in a loaded draft and had the cap room to sign 2 free agents.
C. By stretching Batum you lose cap space the next 2 years when you could have had a chance at some better free agents then GH, maybe they come maybe they don't but know his cap number is haunting you for 2 additional years.
D. The contract was an overpay in both years and dollars and GH is not a superstar. Giving a 30 year old a 4 year deal at at money really risky, forget the ankle becuase that is a freak accident not likley to occur but the minor injuries had started to add up and his recovery times were longer then expected. I don;t think getting swept in the 1st round is worth the opportunity cost.

Overally I think this was a very shortsighted move. I think it absolutely makes you better. but not at the right time. There is just not enough high end talent on the roster to make a move like this. I will be rooting for my KU kid Devone Grahm and Gordo to do well but I really think long term the team would have been better waiting a year to make a move like this given the opportunity to add better players next year.

He averages 5 wins in normal year. We are playing 72 in a condensed season, possibly less. I'd rather lock him up now because I expect this season to be full of surprises. We've got a vet who can keep the guys focused and work with through next summer. I can think of a lot of plays worse than signing Hayward.

[BigSlam]

Since no one is talking about this:

We are apparently still talking with the celtics for a sign and trade.
Our front office might be playing 4D Chess by saying we would waive Batum to make room for Hayward.

Spoiler:

Read on Twitter

Getting Hayward without cutting Batum changes the whole story.

????

You know we spoke about this for about 7 straight hours last night - right?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[predators]

The Batum stretch is what makes this awful. $9 million is a lot of money, that's a good rotation player that the team will not be able to sign.

You keep saying this... their are limited options to avoid this.

1. Not sign Hayward
2. Give Boston Zeller or Rozier back for him
3. Attach a first round pick or Miles Bridges to Batum in a salary dump to another team

Or

4. Eat the 9 million for Batum

I’d prefer option #1. Maybe #2 Zeller isn’t in the long term plans and guaranteed to miss a large chunk of the season, ditto Rozier. I also value 9 million in Cap space over Miles Bridges or Monk but that may be super unpopular.

I think signing Hayward is likely Mitch’s second worse move behind trading SGA for Miles. Feels like we dodged a bullet not overpaying Kemba to lead us to the 9th seed (Boston is reportedly trying to shed that contract already)to immediately overpay Gordon Hayward to also lead us to the 9th seed the next off-season.

[Radu_Hornets]

Since no one is talking about this:

We are apparently still talking with the celtics for a sign and trade.
Our front office might be playing 4D Chess by saying we would waive Batum to make room for Hayward.

Spoiler:

Read on Twitter

Getting Hayward without cutting Batum changes the whole story.

????

You know we spoke about this for about 7 straight hours last night - right?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

My Bad, I looked at the last comments and still saw people commenting about extending Batum's contract. So I thought the info did not come here yet !

[UNCNYC]

This is not a move I would have made for a few reasons.

His injury (recent) more so than his age. He will be 34 at the end of this signing so thats not too bad. Also his last year of contract I rarely count because those players are very movable since they will be coming off the books so it's more like 3 ish years. But his injury could come into play since it has been so RECENT. I was never that high on him even in his prime let alone nearly past it.

Another reason I am not big on this signing is because I actually like Miles quite a bit. We also have not given McDaniels a full year (who showed so much promise towards the end of the season). We just better hope we can get a full 2 years out of him. If so we are ok. Year 4 he is movable. I think all contracts should only be guaranteed for 2 years.

Very bad tho if LaMelo develops because having Hayward here can actually keep us from resigning him due to being tied down by Hayward and not being able to use that money on another big name.

[UNCNYC]

My strategy would be if we start the season off poorly I would either limit his minutes (to limit injury and tank) or I would look to move him next year (if he is being productive stat wise but not fitting in he should be moveable

[Hornet Mania]

We weren't picking top 5 in next years draft without Hayward. No clue where some of you are getting this stuff.

Yeah, the young guys are still being underestimated. The team plays hard and doesn't quit on their coach, that puts them ahead of at least 5-6 hopeless cases any given season, just like last year. We were going to be in the middle of the pack relying on the lotto gods to hook us up with a top 4 pick again no matter what.

[DY_nasty]

We weren't picking top 5 in next years draft without Hayward. No clue where some of you are getting this stuff.

we massively overachieved this past year