Hmmm.. so do we believe in Masai..

[ciueli]

Seems like the cap and tax in 2020-21 will be $109.140 M/$132.627 M. Looking at the Raptors contracts it's roughly

Kyle $30M
Norm $10.8M
McCaw $4M
Stanley Johnson $3.8M
Pascal $29M
OG $3.9M
TD $1.5M
Matt Thomas $1.5M
Dewan $1.5M
Malachi $1.95M (?)
Jalen Harris 0.9M (?)

Guessing that Fred's contract is $21M, that would have left about $22M under the luxury tax level (or possibly a bit less depending on how Fred's deal is structured). We could have made a slightly bigger 1 year offer to Serge and possibly still had money left for one of Baynes or Boucher, but it wouldn't have been much more, maybe $14M-$15M at absolute most and would have put the team right at the tax line.

[tosi]

You’re negative, impatient and a whiner. That’s my take.

Rofl

I agree, why should we rush and do something for no reason

[The Warrior]

In an offseason where Haywood is getting 120M, and guys like Grant are getting 20M a year, Siakam would easily be maxed out by a team like NY, DET, ATL. It's so obvious that it's not even worth debating.

Oi vey

1. Detroit did not have max cap space - they would have been just under 30mn in cap space - not enough for a max.
2. Not a single player moved to another team for a max contract - the closest is Hayward which many people believe is an utterly ridiculous contract. Yet, it's still less 15 million less than what we pre-signed up for with Pascal
3. Most importantly, as the OP mentioned - we could have waited for Pascal to become an RFA and matched any deal that came our way. If for some reason, someone did throw the max, we could have matched it. In our current situation, we had to let Ibaka go because we already effed up with the Siakam signing. There was basically no downside to waiting with Pascal.


It's an eff-up. It happens - we have screwed ourselves on the cap with the Pascal contract. Masai remains the best but the Pascal thing has likely meant we couldn't keep Ibaka and flexibility in 2021.

You have no understanding of the current Raptors cap situation.

Thank you. ratul keeps spewing this notion even though he clearly has no idea what he's talking about.

Sent from my SM-N950W using Tapatalk

[Marty_Budda]

This makes no sense. Siakams contract is precisely the main reason we are cap constrained in 2021 and could not keep ibaka. Offer siakam 4/100 which I think he takes given it is an extension and we still keep ibaka.

I love Masai but he can make mistakes. He did give javale mcgee 60 million at one point.

You can offer Siakam whatever you want, it doesn't mean he will take it. He wouldn't accept 4/100 when he'd get the max in the offseason. His agent isnt stupid. He'd be the best FA on the market this offseason and he'd get multiple max offers on day 1, especially from all the rebuilding teams who'd love to add a mid 20s allstar for just cash. Hayward just got 120M and people think Siakam is going to accept less.

4/100 wasnt an option. People need to stop pretending it was.

Perhaps, but I think the argument is that Masai/Bobby should have still waited for Pascal to become a RFA, to see what his market value would actually be this offseason. After mediocre play since January and a horrendous showing in the bubble, it's not exactly certain he could have commanded somewhere in the $120-130 million range. And even if some team did throw that money at him, we'd simply match it. Bottom line is that the extension was premature and not needed.

No, they shouldn’t have waited. Pascal made all nba 2nd team this year. I’m pretty sure he woulda been eligible to make more this off season than last year as a result - could be wrong tho.

Either way it was the right decision as someone else would have 100% maxed him no ifs and buts. 30 year old injury prone Hayward got 4/120 for crying out loud...you don’t think hornets woulda offered 4/136 for siakam if he was available?

[ratul]

Oi vey

1. Detroit did not have max cap space - they would have been just under 30mn in cap space - not enough for a max.
2. Not a single player moved to another team for a max contract - the closest is Hayward which many people believe is an utterly ridiculous contract. Yet, it's still less 15 million less than what we pre-signed up for with Pascal
3. Most importantly, as the OP mentioned - we could have waited for Pascal to become an RFA and matched any deal that came our way. If for some reason, someone did throw the max, we could have matched it. In our current situation, we had to let Ibaka go because we already effed up with the Siakam signing. There was basically no downside to waiting with Pascal.


It's an eff-up. It happens - we have screwed ourselves on the cap with the Pascal contract. Masai remains the best but the Pascal thing has likely meant we couldn't keep Ibaka and flexibility in 2021.

You have no understanding of the current Raptors cap situation.

Thank you. ratul keeps spewing this notion even though he clearly has no idea what he's talking about.

Sent from my SM-N950W using Tapatalk

Except I do. My point is the pascal contract constrains us. Somehow giving a max contract doesn’t impact our cap space when obviously it does. The raps won’t pay the tax and want max cap space. Yet pascal is on the books for 30.5 in 2021 which kind of limitEd our chances with ibaka.

But, of course you know more big guy

[The Warrior]

You have no understanding of the current Raptors cap situation.

Thank you. ratul keeps spewing this notion even though he clearly has no idea what he's talking about.

Sent from my SM-N950W using Tapatalk

Except I do. My point is the pascal contract constrains us. Somehow giving a max contract doesn’t impact our cap space when obviously it does. The raps won’t pay the tax and want max cap space. Yet pascal is on the books for 30.5 in 2021 which kind of limitEd our chances with ibaka.

But, of course you know more big guy

Well I don't claim to be or act like I'm a cap genius. Since you seem to have all the answers, what would your solution be to this? Oh and before you suggest offering a 4 year 100 million dollar contract, try to understand that Siakam would decide on becoming an RFA receiving interest from multiple suitors for max deals. His camp also made it very clear they'd be pursuing a max deal . So basically, it would have literally made no difference had we waited or not.

Curious, what are your thoughts on Fred and his contract compared to what you think he's worth?

Sent from my SM-N950W using Tapatalk

[brownbobcat]

No, they shouldn’t have waited. Pascal made all nba 2nd team this year. I’m pretty sure he woulda been eligible to make more this off season than last year as a result - could be wrong tho.

Either way it was the right decision as someone else would have 100% maxed him no ifs and buts. 30 year old injury prone Hayward got 4/120 for crying out loud...you don’t think hornets woulda offered 4/136 for siakam if he was available?

The issue isn't so much the waiting as it was getting zero discount for extending Siakam early. And before anyone says it wasn't possible, look at a couple other guys in the same draft class:

Domantas Sabonis: $77M/4
Jaylen Brown: $107M/4

Both got additional incentives in the $5-8M range for things making All-Star and All-NBA teams. In contrast, Siakam's bonus is something like $15M as he was chosen as the special Designated Player. You might make an argument that Siakam is better than the other 2, or at least you could if you skipped the playoffs, but he's damn sure not $40-70M better than them.

And since you brought up this threat of Charlotte giving Siakam an offer sheet - guess what? They didn't offer anything to Ingram and he just happens to be another RFA who also won MIP, is arguably just as good as Siakam but 3 years younger and might not get designated player status. I expect NOLA to max him out, but that just reinforces that Masai accomplished nothing with the early extension.

Masai negotiated against himself and he lost, plain and simple. It's been a trend throughout his entire career as an exec. He obviously does better in other areas and gets a pass for all he's accomplished, but let's not pretend that all his moves are gold.

[brownbobcat]

In an offseason where Haywood is getting 120M, and guys like Grant are getting 20M a year, Siakam would easily be maxed out by a team like NY, DET, ATL. It's so obvious that it's not even worth debating.

Yeah, it's so obvious that NY, DET and ATL would max out a young RFA who averaged 23/6/4, won MIP and made the All-Star team.

Oh wait a minute, they actually all had that opportunity with Brandon Ingram but none of them did it yet. And even if they did, the contract would've been something like $20M less than Siakam's extension due to the lower 5% annual raise and lack of Designated Player status. But who's counting right? Not like Toronto was gonna spend that extra $$$ anywhere, not like they wanted to re-sign anybody but came up a little short.

[kirkwood]

Depends what your after as a fan. If your in the Giannis or nothing camp we are in position to make a run at him after a shortened season. If your in the win now camp, your disappointed because what came in clearly is not what went out, the team is likely a 8th seed at best, maybe worse.

Personally I’m fine with the Giannis approach, the team isn’t even playing in Toronto this year (blah) so my interest won’t be as high. I also don’t mind if the sky falls and we end up tanking for a high pick to go along with Giannis or any other high end FA

[ratul]

double

[Gold Dragon]

Masai would not have nickeled and dimed Pascal this offseason. His contract would have been the same.

But if you allowed Pascal to go to RFA, you are sending a message to your best player that you value saving money more than you value him and even if you match his offer sheet from another team, you risk losing him when he becomes a UFA. Also you get to dictate the terms of the contract rather than letting another team choose them for you. There was very little downside to extending Pascal early outside of a career ending injury.

With OG you can sell him on the max cap space and the opportunity for him to earn a contract closer to his max.

[wolfv]

Always will believe in him. No other front office I'd rather have tbh other than Miami.

Sent from my IN2013 using Tapatalk

[BlackThought]

The people who are doubting Masai should look at the big picture. It's a shortened season with the Raptors not even playing in Toronto. If there was ever a season to take a step back it would be this one.

I am looking forward to seeing OG and Vanvleet take bigger roles on the team and see if Siakam can further elevate his game. We have our point guard for post-Lowry and the core of SIakam/OG/Vanvleet makes a great supporting cast for any big name FA next year.

If we can't get anyone next year then perhaps it's time for major shakeup. But until then I am fine with fielding a team that is destined for 2nd round exit.

[OakleyDokely]

In an offseason where Haywood is getting 120M, and guys like Grant are getting 20M a year, Siakam would easily be maxed out by a team like NY, DET, ATL. It's so obvious that it's not even worth debating.

Yeah, it's so obvious that NY, DET and ATL would max out a young RFA who averaged 23/6/4, won MIP and made the All-Star team.

Oh wait a minute, they actually all had that opportunity with Brandon Ingram but none of them did it yet. And even if they did, the contract would've been something like $20M less than Siakam's extension due to the lower 5% annual raise and lack of Designated Player status. But who's counting right? Not like Toronto was gonna spend that extra $$$ anywhere, not like they wanted to re-sign anybody but came up a little short.

What is Siakam preventing us from doing exactly?
Please tell me all the great players we'd land this offseason if he was paid 4M less per year? Even on a smaller contract, all the Raps had to spend this offseason was the MLE.

The Raps are planning around 2021 free agency so they're only offering 1 year deals this offseason which is going to limit the players you can attract. The Raps didn't want to give Ibaka multiple years, that's the main reason Ibaka isnt a Raptor, he took a 2 year deal with the Clippers.

In preparation for 2021, they want their young core locked up to make it attractive to a max player and they want to have a max cap slot available. They will have accomplished both.

[Gold Dragon]

Even if Pascal was paid a few million less, the most we had to spend on free agency this year was the MLE of 9.2M because we would still be over the cap.

And Marc and Serge would still have been offered 1 year deals with team options. Maybe they would have been slightly bigger but it still would not have been with player options or two year deals that they accepted.

[OakleyDokely]

Even if Pascal was paid a few million less, the most we had to spend on free agency this year was the MLE of 9.2M because we would still be over the cap.

And Marc and Serge would still have been offered 1 year deals with team options. Maybe they would have been slightly bigger but it still would not have been with player options or two year deals that they accepted.

It's amazing people still dont get this.

The Raps have constructed their roster for flexibility in 2021. Even if Siakam made 25M, all they had this year was the MLE and they were only going to offer 1 year deals so they wouldn't clog up the cap for 2021. They were always going to be limited in what they could do this offseason.

[Gold Dragon]

Most of us knew since the beginning of last season that priority this off season was Fred, likely around Brogdon money and that it would be near impossible to keep both Serge and Marc, especially with Serge likely wanting multiple years and the Raptors not being able to offer it because of saving space for a max contract in 2021. There was the possibility that Marc would accept a one year deal but it looks like that was not to be either.

This all played out pretty much as expected except for the destination for Marc and Serge which in hindsight we should have figured out would be the two LA teams (A pox on both their houses!).

Also the overall drop in value of big men was more sudden than many expected as well, although it had been trending that way for a while with the mid to lower end bigs. I expected the higher end big men to continue to carry more value than they did this free agency. I guess the limited cap space was a big factor. We shall see if this continues next off-seaon when there is more cap space floating around.

[ATLTimekeeper]

There's no question Masai is a GM that "pays." I think it's a tough argument to believe it has costed him anything. By far the worst decision he made was DeMarre Carroll, and it cost us a late first and a second, which turned out to be Musa and Kurucs.

Pascal didn't cost us Serge. If they wanted Serge badly enough, they would have dumped Stanley Johnson or Pat McCaw, and it would have cost us a couple of second rounders at most and maybe some cash. And then Serge would have had even more money to base his decision on. Ultimately, they made Serge turn down more money to go play for the Clippers. Same with Gasol, who is getting like the minimum to go chase a ring.

[brownbobcat]

Please tell me all the great players we'd land this offseason if he was paid 4M less per year? Even on a smaller contract, all the Raps had to spend this offseason was the MLE.

The Raps are planning around 2021 free agency so they're only offering 1 year deals this offseason which is going to limit the players you can attract. The Raps didn't want to give Ibaka multiple years, that's the main reason Ibaka isnt a Raptor, he took a 2 year deal with the Clippers.

You answered your own question - Ibaka. Ibaka cares about money and years, not one or the other. $19M is a lot more than $12M and thus an easy choice. If he was offered $15M/1yr, I suspect the decision would've been a lot closer.

Secondly, the fact that they're capped out anyway doesn't excuse the mistake of overpaying. It goes beyond this particular FA market. Siakam at $25M/yr vs $35M is a much better asset to dangle in a trade. If it doesn't matter at all, might as well give $35M to Boucher for 1yr too.

In preparation for 2021, they want their young core locked up to make it attractive to a max player and they want to have a max cap slot available. They will have accomplished both.

Irrelevant. Siakam could've been locked up this year regardless. The end goal is not just to land a max player, it's to win, which means firing on all cylinders because the margin for error is small.

I'm not saying this is some fatal mistake that Masai can't recover from, he's obviously still one of the best. But it is a mistake, there's no point trying to deny that.

[ATLTimekeeper]

No one fires on all cylinders. Losing Ibaka didn't cost us the title this year. If Ibaka thought he could win a title with Toronto, he would have stayed and taken the bigger payout. So, why should Toronto throw in more money just to accomplish the same goal. Would have been nice to keep Serge, but he took less money. End of story. They pivoted to Marc Gasol, and it looks like he took significantly less money. Like, Chris Boucher is getting something like 2.5 times what Marc is taking from the Lakers.

If the Raptors need to clear cap next summer to make room for incoming stars, or whatever, they'll parcel picks and trade future drafts to do it. That's what all the competitive teams do these days.