Run it back again?!?!?!

[Skin]

Don’t misunderstand me here, I’m pretty damn depressed right now and have little interest in next season beyond the growth of Fultz and getting a look at Cole + Chuma.

So I’m not making excuses for WeHam here.

Still, I am holding out a glimmer of positivity that there are at least 2 legit FRANCHISE STAR talents in the upcoming draft. There are likely a few very good next tier All-Star players as well. This is a good draft class.

With how bad we are going to be and how much better everyone else is getting ... just trying to look at the glass half full.

Our team is too good to be bad and too bad to be good. We are in no man's land. That's what's so stupid.

No matter what all star talents there are next year, we won't be getting one.

[OrlandoNed]

How I see the next two years going:

20-21 Season- Assuming no major injuries, we make the play-in games as a 9 or 10 seed. No moves of consequence made at trade deadline. We don't advance to the playoffs. Slightly better 1st round pick, no 2nd round picks made. Run it back free agency. WeHam super insistent that we will make significant progress with a healthy Isaac, but are under internal pressure by management to make it happen or they will not be back the next year.

21-22 Season- Off to a decent early start, but we start faltering immediately in 2022. WeHam gets nervous and finally makes a suboptimal panic trade. We barely make the playoffs, get smoked in 4 games to the #1 seed. Either Hammond gets scapegoated or ownership cleans house.

[fendilim]

There is no way they tank. If they wanted do, they would have done it already earlier.

Also, they invested heavily on analytics, perhaps, thinking our picks wont have that much talented players left since we wont tank so they’ll just play the numbers game.

[Optimus_Steel]

All it takes is a injury to Vuc and this team is unintentionally forced to tank.

[Skybox]

All it takes is a injury to Vuc and this team is unintentionally forced to tank.

Same is true for 90% of the NBA

[purpleswordfish]

Personally, I think that the Magic are just going to run with this core through 2020-2021 and 2021-2022. If there isn't a reason to keep this group together at that point, it's a perfect time to blow everything up. The Magic would only have Ross and Vucevic under contract at that point and I assume they'd easily be tradeable. Then you could either try to make a splash in free agency, tank or something else.

I just have this feeling that there is some underlying plan to all of these short-term moves.

[Howard Mass]

Sorry guys... But I called this almost to the letter back in September:
viewtopic.php?p=84616746#p84616746

That is depressing to hear. So what should we do, in your opinion? So that we can have a future of contention

We are in a tough spot, and over the next year or two I think the best we can realistically hope for is incremental improvements.

1. As I said earlier in this thread, I think Evan opts in and you look to trade him if you can get one of these;
- A younger player with potential (think how we got Evan for Afflalo etc)
- A player who is as good a shooter who doesn't need to dominate the ball
- A better playmaker
But, it has to be on a contract that doesn't handcuff the team down the line, which is not easy.

If you can't get one of the above and the Magic are in playoff contention, rather than make a bad trade they may just ride Fournier out all the way to the end of his contract and try to replace him through the draft/MLE and/or hope by then other scorers have developed.

2. Keep Vuc. As I have said recently in posts the end goal is for the team to make enough money that it doesn't become a money sink for the DeVos family and sold to another city. Vuc keeps us in playoff contention and the right moves and player development around him could improve the team overall.

3. Keep Gordon for now. If Okeke is as good as we need him to be, and Aminu is better than this season, then look to move AG at the trade deadline. Again though, if we are in the playoff hunt, and/or Okeke isn't ready, the Magic may stand pat until Isaac proves he can play.

4. Get some real player development staff in here to get Okeke and #15 off on the right foot, Markelle's 3 point game cooking and a big man coach suited for the modern NBA to help Bamba become servicable.

5. Unless you use #15 on a PG, whoever you bring in to backup Markelle needs to be on a 1-2 year deal (not opposed to it being DJ or MCW). If it is a FA, do not give them this full MLE 4 year garbage they gave Aminu, because if Markelle develops as hoped they backup PG might only be playing < 15mins.

6. Take a punt on Isaac's health and try and extend him cheap now while he is injured, hope for the best, and if he goes down again, well, at least his contract isn't a team killer.

7. The rest of the players, take them or leave them, look for cheap buys like Ennis/Clark and don't take on any bad contracts.

So basically, I am saying in a perfect world we move Evan for someone who is younger but becomes better, we move AG for value/youth at the deadline because Okeke/Aminu are playing well, Markelle and Bamba develop well and Vuc carries over his bubble play to next season...

To me that's the best we can hope for.

Incremental improvements

Anthony in for DJ
Okeke in for Iwundu
Bacon in for Frazier Jr.

Stay tuned for the Isaac extension... Hopefully a Fournier trade is to come.

This. It was so well in September and is still so well said.

and of course, Karim Mané is on a Two-Way and we still don't know who the second one will be/if Johnson or Law will be back.

I am very excited about Chuma Okeke though.

[MagicStarwipe]

This is all just a big conspiracy to inflate Vuc's all time stats, retire his jersey and label this era a "success". "At least we got to watch all time Magic great retired jersey living legend Nikola Vucevic for a decade".

[CPBalla2003 n da 863]

I kind of been playing this scenario in my head and I'm hoping this is the case and Weltman and Hammond are playing it this way. Milwaukee was in the middle for awhile... between 2015-2018 and one of those years, they missed the playoffs. They got a lottery pick and although it was Thon Maker, the Odds are even better this time around to snag a lottery pick, they also drafted Malcolm Brogdon that year.

Which like others stated, at the trade deadline, one of these contenders is going to look for some additional shooting, so hopefully we can snag another pick for Evan or some young prospect. Isaac getting injured make them stand pack or run it back. If Okeke is for real, well next year, AG is an expiring and that's another asset. I know it's hard to be patient, but Bucks were mediocre for awhile. Yeah, I'm aware that the great equalizer is Giannis, but he was put into playoff situations. I'm glad Fultz got a run in the playoffs last year and get a taste of postseason hoops. A lot of teams in the East got better and I'll be surprised if Orlando makes it to the playoffs. So I'm rooting for player development (Fultz, Anthony, Okeke and Bamba) and have them be put in competitive situations. It'll be interesting to see how this front office plays with their expiring assets (Fournier this season, AG the following season)

Hopefully there's agreement between Clifford and Weltham to focus on player development. This team spacing is pretty good compare the last few seasons for sure, defense may take a hit though.

[pepe1991]

I kind of been playing this scenario in my head and I'm hoping this is the case and Weltman and Hammond are playing it this way. Milwaukee was in the middle for awhile... between 2015-2018 and one of those years, they missed the playoffs. They got a lottery pick and although it was Thon Maker, the Odds are even better this time around to snag a lottery pick, they also drafted Malcolm Brogdon that year.

Which like others stated, at the trade deadline, one of these contenders is going to look for some additional shooting, so hopefully we can snag another pick for Evan or some young prospect. Isaac getting injured make them stand pack or run it back. If Okeke is for real, well next year, AG is an expiring and that's another asset. I know it's hard to be patient, but Bucks were mediocre for awhile. Yeah, I'm aware that the great equalizer is Giannis, but he was put into playoff situations. I'm glad Fultz got a run in the playoffs last year and get a taste of postseason hoops. A lot of teams in the East got better and I'll be surprised if Orlando makes it to the playoffs. So I'm rooting for player development (Fultz, Anthony, Okeke and Bamba) and have them be put in competitive situations. It'll be interesting to see how this front office plays with their expiring assets (Fournier this season, AG the following season)

Hopefully there's agreement between Clifford and Weltham to focus on player development. This team spacing is pretty good compare the last few seasons for sure, defense may take a hit though.

They stumbled across Giannis. Just remove him from equation and you get Bucks epic 2013-14 roster with Monta Ellise, Brandon Jennings, Ilaysova, Dunleavy,Sanders hooked on weed...
Hennigan stole Tobias Harris from them because they played career 6,4 ppg Luc Mbah a Moute and Mike Dunleavy who was 32 at times over him .

Hammond and Wetlman "sucess" is nowhere near as impressive as it was presented.

Hammond is one Giannis lucy draft away from being one of worst long term GMs out there. His team NEVER won first round of playoffs. Ever!

Weltman was guy that worked with Ujiri. But when Raptors made complete overhaul of roster? Execlly in season Weltman was moved and Webster took over. Over year and half what was Derozan- Lowry- Valenchunas- Carroll - Ibaka starting 5 turned into: Lowry- Green- Kawhi- Marc Gasol - Siakam starting 5.

4 started changed over 1 year.

Does anybody even know or care who drafted Lebron?
Does anybody know who is Tim Connelly ?

[MagicFan4Lyfe]

In the 5 stage Kubler-Ross model for coping with loss-

Denial
Anger
Bargaining
Depression
Acceptance

I am at the acceptance stage for the Orlando Magic. Accept we are garbage treadmill team for the next 5-6 years, find another team to support in the meantime so basketball can be joyous to watch, and if some day in our lifetime there is a Magic front office with a pulse and drive to win a championship, then I will start to feel passionate and worked up again. I just can't do this year in and year out with no hope or a pathway to success.

I can't think of a more boring and irrelevant team in the NBA.

[J-Mezzy]

Sad that the defending champions were more active than us in turning over their squad.

Says a lot

[jonbob17]

In the 5 stage Kubler-Ross model for coping with loss-

Denial
Anger
Bargaining
Depression
Acceptance

I am at the acceptance stage for the Orlando Magic. Accept we are garbage treadmill team for the next 5-6 years, find another team to support in the meantime so basketball can be joyous to watch, and if some day in our lifetime there is a Magic front office with a pulse and drive to win a championship, then I will start to feel passionate and worked up again. I just can't do this year in and year out with no hope or a pathway to success.

I can't think of a more boring and irrelevant team in the NBA.

I feel the same way. I will say, the bubble this year was a lot of fun just watching a lot of good basketball. Unless the team changes their path, I will probably just tune into the game of the night, and try and watch good games (other teams) more often. Probably still try to go to some games depending on what happens, and if we are allowed to attend, but might choose those games based more on who we are playing rather than the convenience of my schedule.

Management has beaten the hope and optimism from me. I should have just listened to their words and their actions. They did what the said they were going to do, no matter how little sense it may make.

[Skin]

In the 5 stage Kubler-Ross model for coping with loss-

Denial
Anger
Bargaining
Depression
Acceptance

I am at the acceptance stage for the Orlando Magic. Accept we are garbage treadmill team for the next 5-6 years, find another team to support in the meantime so basketball can be joyous to watch, and if some day in our lifetime there is a Magic front office with a pulse and drive to win a championship, then I will start to feel passionate and worked up again. I just can't do this year in and year out with no hope or a pathway to success.

I can't think of a more boring and irrelevant team in the NBA.

I'm fully in the Anger stage.

Pre-draft was Denial.

I had hopes of moving up in the draft or moving on from Evan, AG or Vuc or simply drafting a player who could replace them.

Instead, no trade (except for moving our 2nd rounder - because we had no roster spots due to the grand visions of Gary Clark, James Ennis, Dwayne Bacon, and Karim Moore)... and the guy they drafted is a lazy defender who shoots unconsciously as a 6'1.5 ft shooting guard in a point guard's body, that has a hard time finishing, and loves to turn the ball over.

Pure Anger.

[yoyojw17]

I get the frustration... but when you step back and look at the big picture... there is no need to make large moves until the path has been made clearer. Their first 2 lotto picks were high upside picks which would take time to develop before the fruits of the pick really affect the team. Their bodies had to mature to a certain level before they became true impact players. We could have seen that major step forward with isaac (stupid injuries) and hope to see the same from bamba as well this season now that his body has mature (stupid covid). Then they took a player in Okeke who has lottery talent but his value was marred by an injury that would keep him out for a year. THose were mainly upside picks that though they were made... was not going to make much of an impact immediately... and this was known and was done by design.

So.... while these players mature... they kept players that would help establish and maintain a competitive environment... and they did so.... keeping most of the players on solid contracts.... contracts that would be of value when the time is right and foundations are solidified.

They are more cautious and methodical than most... and that might rub people the wrong way... but that does not mean that they are doing it incorrectly. They just aren't wetting our lips as often as most of us will like. With our cap situation... going out and adding certain talent via free agency might not be a good financial idea when you are trying to reup on two of your core players in the next season. So... ain't no need to make any significant additions... especially the ones that might take away time from the younger core.

And if you're in the camp that doesnt see the possible futures of Fultz, Isaac and bamba... then i can see why one think that they are doing a horrible job... etc etc etc. No movement will occur till certain things fall into place... otherwise for them holding onto particular assets might be better than going all in. So yes... i have been and will continue to believe that players like fournier, gordon and vuc would be used in trades to acquire players that will fit the style of play and values.

A player like Anthony could become a spark plug for our team and our rebuilding efforts. Isaacs injury has definitely been a setback, but this could have been the year that the magic took a hugeeeee step forward.

The more i attempt to see it all from their point of view... the more I fell like i can envision what they are trying too do.

we will see!

[jonbob17]

I get the frustration... but when you step back and look at the big picture... there is no need to make large moves until the path has been made clearer. Their first 2 lotto picks were high upside picks which would take time to develop before the fruits of the pick really affect the team. Their bodies had to mature to a certain level before they became true impact players. We could have seen that major step forward with isaac (stupid injuries) and hope to see the same from bamba as well this season now that his body has mature (stupid covid). Then they took a player in Okeke who has lottery talent but his value was marred by an injury that would keep him out for a year. THose were mainly upside picks that though they were made... was not going to make much of an impact immediately... and this was known and was done by design.

So.... while these players mature... they kept players that would help establish and maintain a competitive environment... and they did so.... keeping most of the players on solid contracts.... contracts that would be of value when the time is right and foundations are solidified.

They are more cautious and methodical than most... and that might rub people the wrong way... but that does not mean that they are doing it incorrectly. They just aren't wetting our lips as often as most of us will like. With our cap situation... going out and adding certain talent via free agency might not be a good financial idea when you are trying to reup on two of your core players in the next season. So... ain't no need to make any significant additions... especially the ones that might take away time from the younger core.

And if you're in the camp that doesnt see the possible futures of Fultz, Isaac and bamba... then i can see why one think that they are doing a horrible job... etc etc etc. No movement will occur till certain things fall into place... otherwise for them holding onto particular assets might be better than going all in. So yes... i have been and will continue to believe that players like fournier, gordon and vuc would be used in trades to acquire players that will fit the style of play and values.

A player like Anthony could become a spark plug for our team and our rebuilding efforts. Isaacs injury has definitely been a setback, but this could have been the year that the magic took a hugeeeee step forward.

The more i attempt to see it all from their point of view... the more I fell like i can envision what they are trying too do.

we will see!

Under the 5 stage Kubler-Ross model for coping with loss they call this stage denial

[Rainwater]

I get the frustration... but when you step back and look at the big picture... there is no need to make large moves until the path has been made clearer. Their first 2 lotto picks were high upside picks which would take time to develop before the fruits of the pick really affect the team. Their bodies had to mature to a certain level before they became true impact players. We could have seen that major step forward with isaac (stupid injuries) and hope to see the same from bamba as well this season now that his body has mature (stupid covid). Then they took a player in Okeke who has lottery talent but his value was marred by an injury that would keep him out for a year. THose were mainly upside picks that though they were made... was not going to make much of an impact immediately... and this was known and was done by design.

So.... while these players mature... they kept players that would help establish and maintain a competitive environment... and they did so.... keeping most of the players on solid contracts.... contracts that would be of value when the time is right and foundations are solidified.

They are more cautious and methodical than most... and that might rub people the wrong way... but that does not mean that they are doing it incorrectly. They just aren't wetting our lips as often as most of us will like. With our cap situation... going out and adding certain talent via free agency might not be a good financial idea when you are trying to reup on two of your core players in the next season. So... ain't no need to make any significant additions... especially the ones that might take away time from the younger core.

And if you're in the camp that doesnt see the possible futures of Fultz, Isaac and bamba... then i can see why one think that they are doing a horrible job... etc etc etc. No movement will occur till certain things fall into place... otherwise for them holding onto particular assets might be better than going all in. So yes... i have been and will continue to believe that players like fournier, gordon and vuc would be used in trades to acquire players that will fit the style of play and values.

A player like Anthony could become a spark plug for our team and our rebuilding efforts. Isaacs injury has definitely been a setback, but this could have been the year that the magic took a hugeeeee step forward.

The more i attempt to see it all from their point of view... the more I fell like i can envision what they are trying too do.

we will see!

Under the 5 stage Kubler-Ross model for coping with loss they call this stage denial

[yoyojw17]

I get the frustration... but when you step back and look at the big picture... there is no need to make large moves until the path has been made clearer. Their first 2 lotto picks were high upside picks which would take time to develop before the fruits of the pick really affect the team. Their bodies had to mature to a certain level before they became true impact players. We could have seen that major step forward with isaac (stupid injuries) and hope to see the same from bamba as well this season now that his body has mature (stupid covid). Then they took a player in Okeke who has lottery talent but his value was marred by an injury that would keep him out for a year. THose were mainly upside picks that though they were made... was not going to make much of an impact immediately... and this was known and was done by design.

So.... while these players mature... they kept players that would help establish and maintain a competitive environment... and they did so.... keeping most of the players on solid contracts.... contracts that would be of value when the time is right and foundations are solidified.

They are more cautious and methodical than most... and that might rub people the wrong way... but that does not mean that they are doing it incorrectly. They just aren't wetting our lips as often as most of us will like. With our cap situation... going out and adding certain talent via free agency might not be a good financial idea when you are trying to reup on two of your core players in the next season. So... ain't no need to make any significant additions... especially the ones that might take away time from the younger core.

And if you're in the camp that doesnt see the possible futures of Fultz, Isaac and bamba... then i can see why one think that they are doing a horrible job... etc etc etc. No movement will occur till certain things fall into place... otherwise for them holding onto particular assets might be better than going all in. So yes... i have been and will continue to believe that players like fournier, gordon and vuc would be used in trades to acquire players that will fit the style of play and values.

A player like Anthony could become a spark plug for our team and our rebuilding efforts. Isaacs injury has definitely been a setback, but this could have been the year that the magic took a hugeeeee step forward.

The more i attempt to see it all from their point of view... the more I fell like i can envision what they are trying too do.

we will see!

Under the 5 stage Kubler-Ross model for coping with loss they call this stage denial

hahahahaha!!!! Hate you. jk

eh.... everyone has different views. this is just mine and it makes sense. Crossing fingers and toes that it wall works out for the best!

[thelead]

I get the frustration... but when you step back and look at the big picture... there is no need to make large moves until the path has been made clearer. Their first 2 lotto picks were high upside picks which would take time to develop before the fruits of the pick really affect the team. Their bodies had to mature to a certain level before they became true impact players. We could have seen that major step forward with isaac (stupid injuries) and hope to see the same from bamba as well this season now that his body has mature (stupid covid). Then they took a player in Okeke who has lottery talent but his value was marred by an injury that would keep him out for a year. THose were mainly upside picks that though they were made... was not going to make much of an impact immediately... and this was known and was done by design.

So.... while these players mature... they kept players that would help establish and maintain a competitive environment... and they did so.... keeping most of the players on solid contracts.... contracts that would be of value when the time is right and foundations are solidified.

They are more cautious and methodical than most... and that might rub people the wrong way... but that does not mean that they are doing it incorrectly. They just aren't wetting our lips as often as most of us will like. With our cap situation... going out and adding certain talent via free agency might not be a good financial idea when you are trying to reup on two of your core players in the next season. So... ain't no need to make any significant additions... especially the ones that might take away time from the younger core.

And if you're in the camp that doesnt see the possible futures of Fultz, Isaac and bamba... then i can see why one think that they are doing a horrible job... etc etc etc. No movement will occur till certain things fall into place... otherwise for them holding onto particular assets might be better than going all in. So yes... i have been and will continue to believe that players like fournier, gordon and vuc would be used in trades to acquire players that will fit the style of play and values.

A player like Anthony could become a spark plug for our team and our rebuilding efforts. Isaacs injury has definitely been a setback, but this could have been the year that the magic took a hugeeeee step forward.

The more i attempt to see it all from their point of view... the more I fell like i can envision what they are trying too do.

we will see!

Under the 5 stage Kubler-Ross model for coping with loss they call this stage denial

hahahahaha!!!! Hate you. jk

eh.... everyone has different views. this is just mine and it makes sense. Crossing fingers and toes that it wall works out for the best!

Without Isaac, we better start scouting lotto talent. Unless Fultz has a breakout season, I don't think we make the playoffs this year.

[zaymon]

I get the frustration... but when you step back and look at the big picture... there is no need to make large moves until the path has been made clearer. Their first 2 lotto picks were high upside picks which would take time to develop before the fruits of the pick really affect the team. Their bodies had to mature to a certain level before they became true impact players. We could have seen that major step forward with isaac (stupid injuries) and hope to see the same from bamba as well this season now that his body has mature (stupid covid). Then they took a player in Okeke who has lottery talent but his value was marred by an injury that would keep him out for a year. THose were mainly upside picks that though they were made... was not going to make much of an impact immediately... and this was known and was done by design.

So.... while these players mature... they kept players that would help establish and maintain a competitive environment... and they did so.... keeping most of the players on solid contracts.... contracts that would be of value when the time is right and foundations are solidified.

They are more cautious and methodical than most... and that might rub people the wrong way... but that does not mean that they are doing it incorrectly. They just aren't wetting our lips as often as most of us will like. With our cap situation... going out and adding certain talent via free agency might not be a good financial idea when you are trying to reup on two of your core players in the next season. So... ain't no need to make any significant additions... especially the ones that might take away time from the younger core.

And if you're in the camp that doesnt see the possible futures of Fultz, Isaac and bamba... then i can see why one think that they are doing a horrible job... etc etc etc. No movement will occur till certain things fall into place... otherwise for them holding onto particular assets might be better than going all in. So yes... i have been and will continue to believe that players like fournier, gordon and vuc would be used in trades to acquire players that will fit the style of play and values.

A player like Anthony could become a spark plug for our team and our rebuilding efforts. Isaacs injury has definitely been a setback, but this could have been the year that the magic took a hugeeeee step forward.

The more i attempt to see it all from their point of view... the more I fell like i can envision what they are trying too do.

we will see!

Under the 5 stage Kubler-Ross model for coping with loss they call this stage denial

Maybe we are in acceptance ?

Last year we basically lost all of our lottery players
How can anyone evaluate our ceiling without knowing the outcomes of Isaac, Bamba, Okeke, Anthony and Fultz ?
Jokes about Fournier and Vucevic are funny to some extent but its glaring that Weltman builds around younger players.
No bad long term contracts, cheap reclamation projects, high risk draft prospects.

1. If we lose a lot we should trade Fournier and Gordon, maybe even Vucevic at the deadline for future assets
2. If we win a lot, we should try to consolidate players/ picks
3. If we hang around 8-10 we should make decisions on our veterans depending on young core evaluation.

I dont really know what type of advantage forcing Fournier, Gordon, Vucevic trade right now gives us.