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2020 Off-season Discussion

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MasterIchiro
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Re: 2020 Off-season Discussion 

Post#641 » by MasterIchiro » Mon Nov 23, 2020 6:36 pm

Chapelchilla wrote:I think we are definitely still doing some behind the scenes deal making as I have not yet received an official notice from the Hornets (as a season ticket holder) regarding signing Gordon. They are usually pretty quick to notify/hype us up. The pen has not quite hit the paper I think....interesting


The deal is signed, I suspect. It only becomes official when reported to the league office. I don't think the Hornets have reported it yet but we've locked up Hayward on paper, legally under contract.

And I don't picture Kupchak scrambling right now. I don't think he'd corner himself into some desperate overpay. So I think this delay is due to Kupchak weighing options and negotiating better end points for each option. What he ends up with will be better than stretching Batum. That was a tactic to engage the Celtics as one of those options.
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Re: 2020 Off-season Discussion 

Post#642 » by DY_nasty » Mon Nov 23, 2020 6:56 pm

MasterIchiro wrote:
Chapelchilla wrote:I think we are definitely still doing some behind the scenes deal making as I have not yet received an official notice from the Hornets (as a season ticket holder) regarding signing Gordon. They are usually pretty quick to notify/hype us up. The pen has not quite hit the paper I think....interesting


The deal is signed, I suspect. It only becomes official when reported to the league office. I don't think the Hornets have reported it yet but we've locked up Hayward on paper, legally under contract.

And I don't picture Kupchak scrambling right now. I don't think he'd corner himself into some desperate overpay. So I think this delay is due to Kupchak weighing options and negotiating better end points for each option. What he ends up with will be better than stretching Batum. That was a tactic to engage the Celtics as one of those options.

:lol:

the guy wasn't desperate when he gave mozgov 64 million dollars right after midnight.

lets call a spade a spade and just admit dude does everything right until its time to hand out contracts
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Re: 2020 Off-season Discussion 

Post#643 » by BigSlam » Mon Nov 23, 2020 7:32 pm

MasterIchiro wrote:The deal is signed, I suspect. It only becomes official when reported to the league office. I don't think the Hornets have reported it yet but we've locked up Hayward on paper, legally under contract.

Mark Cuban is on the phone and says: "oooooooooooooooooookkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk......"
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Re: 2020 Off-season Discussion 

Post#644 » by yosemiteben » Mon Nov 23, 2020 7:39 pm

MasterIchiro wrote:The deal is signed, I suspect. It only becomes official when reported to the league office. I don't think the Hornets have reported it yet but we've locked up Hayward on paper, legally under contract.

I'm certain this is not correct, because we currently don't have the cap space. We can't sign a contract for payment that we aren't able to make.
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Re: 2020 Off-season Discussion 

Post#645 » by yosemiteben » Mon Nov 23, 2020 7:55 pm

Now that some time has passed from the Hayward news, I'm realizing that my negative reaction is not so much about Hayward and all about the strategy. I haven't really tracked Hayward's career closely and honestly I'm not sure whether he's terrible or ok value for his contract. I just don't have strong feelings on that subject.

My bigger issue is I just didn't think we were ready to be an above the cap team. I'm not sold that our core is good enough to stop a rebuild. I liked the idea of using cap space to continue to accumulate draft picks and assets, and I really didn't think we would exit the rebuild after one year without acquiring a single first round draft pick or young player via trade.

Like most on here know, I actually hated the idea of a rebuild to begin with, so it's super weird now to be defending a prolonging of the rebuild. I get that maybe Hayward was better than any FA we felt we could grab next summer. Maybe the 2021 and 2022 drafts are too coveted and we weren't going to be able to use cap space to pick up meaningful draft compensation. Maybe we are concerned about the franchise cratering due to COVID and not recovering financially without splashy moves. There are reasons that maybe this is the right move, but it feels to me very much like Kemba walking and us pivoting to the Rozier S&T - just like then, feels like we are not being intentional enough with our moves and not following a disciplined strategy, but rather are kind of stuck trying to build the plane while we're flying it and just hoping it doesn't crash.

I think I wanted one more season before we bring in a big FA. Give me a high 2021 draft pick, move Batum to someone who will give another draft pick for an expiring, get better certainty on who is part of our core (read: figure out if Graham, Bridges, and/or Monk are long term keepers) and be proactive in moving guys for value who aren't, and then build on those additional pieces next summer with a FA signing. If I were in charge, that's what I would have done.
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Re: 2020 Off-season Discussion 

Post#646 » by amcoolio » Mon Nov 23, 2020 8:06 pm

Hayward hasn't signed. The Hornets would announce it immediately with photos of him signing like they always do.
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Re: 2020 Off-season Discussion 

Post#647 » by JMAC3 » Mon Nov 23, 2020 8:14 pm

yosemiteben wrote:Now that some time has passed from the Hayward news, I'm realizing that my negative reaction is not so much about Hayward and all about the strategy. I haven't really tracked Hayward's career closely and honestly I'm not sure whether he's terrible or ok value for his contract. I just don't have strong feelings on that subject.

My bigger issue is I just didn't think we were ready to be an above the cap team. I'm not sold that our core is good enough to stop a rebuild. I liked the idea of using cap space to continue to accumulate draft picks and assets, and I really didn't think we would exit the rebuild after one year without acquiring a single first round draft pick or young player via trade.

Like most on here know, I actually hated the idea of a rebuild to begin with, so it's super weird now to be defending a prolonging of the rebuild. I get that maybe Hayward was better than any FA we felt we could grab next summer. Maybe the 2021 and 2022 drafts are too coveted and we weren't going to be able to use cap space to pick up meaningful draft compensation. Maybe we are concerned about the franchise cratering due to COVID and not recovering financially without splashy moves. There are reasons that maybe this is the right move, but it feels to me very much like Kemba walking and us pivoting to the Rozier S&T - just like then, feels like we are not being intentional enough with our moves and not following a disciplined strategy, but rather are kind of stuck trying to build the plane while we're flying it and just hoping it doesn't crash.

I think I wanted one more season before we bring in a big FA. Give me a high 2021 draft pick, move Batum to someone who will give another draft pick for an expiring, get better certainty on who is part of our core (read: figure out if Graham, Bridges, and/or Monk are long term keepers) and be proactive in moving guys for value who aren't, and then build on those additional pieces next summer with a FA signing. If I were in charge, that's what I would have done.


I tend to agree that this feels like we are shutting the rebuild down a year early. However the counter point to that is that typically teams who enter a rebuild are starting with nothing of value and are tearing everything down to the absolute bones.

Even though we attempted to do that, I feel we were able to rebuild at a quicker pace because of several factors. The first was finding Devonte Graham in the second round who looks like was worthy of a top 10 pick. That helped accelerate the rebuild by a year at least potentially. Next was finding PJ at pick 12 and him showcasing himself to have the potential of a top 5-6 pick in a redraft and his shooting, size, length are in the make of where the NBA is heading. Lastly was jumping into the top 3 and landing Lamelo Ball after we were expected to have the 8th overall pick.

Synopsis of what we should of had: 12th pick and 8th pick

vs

What we have now: 6th pick, 3rd pick, 10th pick. With Bridges and Monk looking like solid players as well.

Also, many teams who enter a rebuild have a horrible looking cap sheet due to either just coming off attempting to compete or collecting horrible contracts for late firsts and extra second rounders. I feel like Hornets skipped over this step potentially because we probably entered a rebuild a year too late and were already getting out from under guys like MKG, Marv, Biz large contracts. After this year we will be out of Zeller deal and potentially worst one with Batum (dead cap?).

I consider us very lucky so far and don't hate the Franchise for potentially trying to compete sooner than expected. We have a ton of room for internal growth, cap space on the horizon and all of our picks moving forward. A lot of teams are in far worse situations then us, so I am just happy that we are starting to see the light at the end of the tunnel.
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Re: 2020 Off-season Discussion 

Post#648 » by wilson115 » Mon Nov 23, 2020 9:14 pm

We're still drafting in the lottery next year, at worst in the late teens. We lose out on chasing Cade Cunningham unless we get lucky, but it so happens 2021's loaded with arguably the kind of player we need (big wing defensive stopper/mismatch against whoever the other team's trying to hide defensively) next to GH/Melo. If PJ continues to develop and our big FA signing's a center then we have a reasonable core, counting our 6th man Graham and perhaps Cody Martin and Jalen. Wonder if Gobert misses old Gordo.
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Re: 2020 Off-season Discussion 

Post#649 » by Chapelchilla » Mon Nov 23, 2020 9:32 pm

Maybe we can add John Henson after the Hayward deal goes thru? He should be cheap enough and gives us a veteran shot blocker in the C rotation. Not an earth shaker or whatever but he can give you 15 minutes of decent basketball.
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Re: 2020 Off-season Discussion 

Post#650 » by BigSlam » Mon Nov 23, 2020 9:34 pm

yosemiteben wrote:Like most on here know, I actually hated the idea of a rebuild to begin with, so it's super weird now to be defending a prolonging of the rebuild. I get that maybe Hayward was better than any FA we felt we could grab next summer. Maybe the 2021 and 2022 drafts are too coveted and we weren't going to be able to use cap space to pick up meaningful draft compensation. Maybe we are concerned about the franchise cratering due to COVID and not recovering financially without splashy moves. There are reasons that maybe this is the right move, but it feels to me very much like Kemba walking and us pivoting to the Rozier S&T - just like then, feels like we are not being intentional enough with our moves and not following a disciplined strategy, but rather are kind of stuck trying to build the plane while we're flying it and just hoping it doesn't crash.

I felt the exact same way when I posted "gross" the moment I read about the Hayward signing.

I corrected it later that night by saying I really like Hayward - but just not for us right at this very moment. He might have been ideal years ago when we offered sheeted him, but that was then and this is now and we are at very different stages as a team.

When posters were saying 2 years ago that we need to sign this player and sign that player (especially Walker) I stood firm and said "no, we need to ride this pile of contractual mess we have created out, wait until the Kidd-Gilchrist, Williams, Biz, Cody and Batum contracts clear and then start fresh then". I said I thought it would be a really messy, frustrating and uninspiring couple of years that would really test some fans loyalty to the team, but that's what we had to do.

So the last couple of years have sucked but we were SO close to getting to where we needed to be. The only remaining contracts to clear where Cody's and Bats. It just feels like we jumped the shark, as we often do, 1 year too early.

So I get how you are feeling because I am feeling the same way. I would have been happy with 1 more season of pain - especially after having Tae and PJ and seeing them blossom last season and now having super high hopes for Ball and Carey along with still holding out hope for Miles, Monk - if it meant that next off season we could really look to start to build something amazing and with a massive amount of options in front of us.
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Re: 2020 Off-season Discussion 

Post#651 » by JMAC3 » Mon Nov 23, 2020 9:59 pm

BigSlam wrote:I felt the exact same way when I posted "gross" the moment I read about the Hayward signing.

I corrected it later that night by saying I really like Hayward - but just not for us right at this very moment. He might have been ideal years ago when we offered sheeted him, but that was then and this is now and we are at very different stages as a team.

When posters were saying 2 years ago that we need to sign this player and sign that player (especially Walker) I stood firm and said "no, we need to ride this pile of contractual mess we have created out, wait until the Kidd-Gilchrist, Williams, Biz, Cody and Batum contracts clear and then start fresh then". I said I thought it would be a really messy, frustrating and uninspiring couple of years that would really test some fans loyalty to the team, but that's what we had to do.

So the last couple of years have sucked but we were SO close to getting to where we needed to be. The only remaining contracts to clear where Cody's and Bats. It just feels like we jumped the shark, as we often do, 1 year too early.

So I get how you are feeling because I am feeling the same way. I would have been happy with 1 more season of pain - especially after having Tae and PJ and seeing them blossom last season and now having super high hopes for Ball and Carey along with still holding out hope for Miles, Monk - if it meant that next off season we could really look to start to build something amazing and with a massive amount of options in front of us.


I do understand that fans are upset with us deviating from the plan, but it is not like we blew up the rebuild and gave up on what we're building. Blowing up the rebuild would of been trading Graham to the Rockets for Westbrook or PJ to the Thunder for Steven Adams etc... We still have all of our young pieces. They are still going to play a ton, we added one Vet who will play 30 minutes a night. As far as playing time he probably is taking 20 minutes of playing time from Martin/McDaniels combined and 10 from Monk/Rozier. I am not even sure Martin and McDaniels are NBA players yet so it is hard to sell me on this hurting our teams development.

The only factor I think it hurts is us picking between 5-10 to potentially picking between 10-15. Hayward is worth dropping 5 spots in the lottery to me- think the fans who are really the most upset had in their hearts we were going to pick 1-3 which is a crapshoot.
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Re: 2020 Off-season Discussion 

Post#652 » by Chapelchilla » Mon Nov 23, 2020 11:21 pm

I will just say that I do not think the boards plan to really tank it out completely was EVER the Hornets plan. They want to compete year in and year out as much as they can. That may not be the "smartest" way to do it but I think we have to either accept that or realize that we won't ever think they are doing it right. For better or worse.
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Re: 2020 Off-season Discussion  

Post#653 » by BigSlam » Mon Nov 23, 2020 11:49 pm

JMAC3 wrote:I do understand that fans are upset with us deviating from the plan, but it is not like we blew up the rebuild and gave up on what we're building. Blowing up the rebuild would of been trading Graham to the Rockets for Westbrook or PJ to the Thunder for Steven Adams etc... We still have all of our young pieces

Fair enough, you’re right.

We didn’t p*ss away and future 1st’s in any trades or to move up in the draft and we do still have Tae, PJ, Miles, Monk and now Ball (plus Vernon) so the rebuild is still on.

Plus Hayward does seem like a guy who could make the young guys better Vs taking away from them.

And he and his game are likeable.


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Re: 2020 Off-season Discussion 

Post#654 » by yosemiteben » Tue Nov 24, 2020 1:16 am

If you're wanting to lurk on the BOS board to get their S&T news, here's the link - viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2022252
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Re: 2020 Off-season Discussion 

Post#655 » by Diop » Tue Nov 24, 2020 1:20 am

We were lucky to get a top 3 pick this year and were always unlikely to get one next draft, so we haven’t really sacrificed a whole lot. Hopefully the addition of Hayward helps us attract another free agent next year.
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Re: 2020 Off-season Discussion 

Post#656 » by Diop » Tue Nov 24, 2020 1:31 am

yosemiteben wrote:If you're wanting to lurk on the BOS board to get their S&T news, here's the link - viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2022252

Sounds like Ainge has a media announcement booked for tomorrow, so hopefully we hear something
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Re: 2020 Off-season Discussion 

Post#657 » by JMAC3 » Tue Nov 24, 2020 1:58 am

One thing we have not really spoke about a lot is that Ainge seemed to be throwing Kemba out for picks to get Jrue or Harden and reports are nobody bit. Has to make you feel a little bit better about letting Kemba walk. I loved him, but it was the right move for us in the time.
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Re: 2020 Off-season Discussion 

Post#658 » by Chapelchilla » Tue Nov 24, 2020 2:51 am

I agree, we offered him a more then fair contract at 32 million a year 5/160 but he wanted more per year at 4/140. I would rather have Hayward at 4/120 frankly and I loved Kemba.
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Re: 2020 Off-season Discussion 

Post#659 » by James Gatz » Tue Nov 24, 2020 3:29 am

Vegas has us as the 5th worst team at 26.5 over/under wins.

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Re: 2020 Off-season Discussion 

Post#660 » by 316Hornets » Tue Nov 24, 2020 3:36 am

James Gatz wrote:Vegas has us as the 5th worst team at 26.5 over/under wins.



On a 72 game season, 26.5 wins is a joke. We had 23 last season on a 65 game season. Shows how much the Joe public knows.

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