Fool Me Twice: The Gordon Hayward Thread

[Chapelchilla]

Looking at the estimated numbers he might be actually better value than resigning Kemba for what the Celtics did. I'm admittedly pretty scared of what 34 year old hayward looks like.

Looking at the top salaries for the next season, If I'm a prospective nba player I'm calling up whoever Otto Porter's agent is. Though I suspect Batum's contract might have been responsible for that.

as long as he stays mostly healthy I think Hayward for $30 million at 33 is a better option then Kemba at 33 for 35 million. Hayward is 6'8'' and his game is passing and 3 pt shooting not a 6'1' PG who has to run around all day to even get his shots open.

[LofJ]

I wouldn't be shocked if we end up trading Batum to Boston for Hayward and a future 2nd. Ainge is too stingy to cough up future draft assets for both a TPE from us and a player from another team.

[Hornet Mania]

https://www.nbcsports.com/boston/celtics/what-would-celtics-hornets-sign-and-trade-involving-gordon-hayward-look?fbclid=IwAR2WasQCj4qie93x7hn-OgjwzoKGFAnaHiIJML6MZp3yFDd2DktT1J6yACM

NBC Sports Boston seems to think the Celtics will have to give up a 1st just to get the massive TPE, and then another asset of some kind if they want any additional players. Ainge is such a tightwad it's difficult for me to imagine him sending out an asset, much less two, but I figured it was worth passing along.

My expectation is that Ainge asks for the moon like he did with Atlanta/Indy and ends up with nothing. The next day some Celtics insider swears he offered five 1st round picks to get it done but it barely fell through, as is standard operating procedure.

[LofJ]

Ainge has to play ball with Mitch. They have no way to add talent going forward without trading Kemba and/or Smart. And that would just deplete their depth even more. We 100% have the upper hand in these negotiations, but unlike Ainge I doubt Mitch is going to make absurd demands. Take Batum for a 2nd, or Zeller/Rozier for a 1st; it's your call Ainge.

[amcoolio]

The Celtics aren't taking Batum. That does nothing for their team. They are hoping for a TPE and sending salary to another team for an asset.

[LofJ]

The Celtics aren't taking Batum. That does nothing for their team. They are hoping for a TPE and sending salary to another team for an asset.

Batum is a similar player to Hayward, but obviously not as good. They want the ability to stay over the cap, preferably with someone that can actually get minutes for them. Maybe they think Batum is motivated to get paid again and want to take advantage of that.

[JMAC3]

The Celtics aren't taking Batum. That does nothing for their team. They are hoping for a TPE and sending salary to another team for an asset.

Batum is a similar player to Hayward, but obviously not as good. They want the ability to stay over the cap, preferably with someone that can actually get minutes for them. Maybe they think Batum is motivated to get paid again and want to take advantage of that.

This board sometimes....

Every plugged in media person says Boston is giving up an asset to get the TPE.
Keith Smith, John Hollinger, etc...

Posters on this board.. "they are wrong, I know"

I am not sure they want Batum either, but he is basically a place holder for TPE and Boston will have to give up less assets to us for Batum then TPE. They then can use those assets saved to attach to Batum in a deal for a player they would of used the TPE on because they will have to attach assets to Batum or TPE in order to get a player regardless.

[JMAC3]

The Celtics aren't taking Batum. That does nothing for their team. They are hoping for a TPE and sending salary to another team for an asset.

Batum is a similar player to Hayward, but obviously not as good. They want the ability to stay over the cap, preferably with someone that can actually get minutes for them. Maybe they think Batum is motivated to get paid again and want to take advantage of that.

This board sometimes....

Every plugged in media person says Boston is giving up an asset to get the TPE.
Keith Smith, John Hollinger, etc...

Posters on this board.. "they are wrong, I know"

I am not sure they want Batum either, but he is basically a place holder for TPE and Boston will have to give up less assets to us for Batum then TPE. They then can use those assets saved to attach to Batum in a deal for a player they would of used the TPE on because they will have to attach assets to Batum or TPE in order to get a player regardless.

Example: Hayward for TPE- Boston giving us a first or 2 seconds

Example 2: Hayward for Batum- Charlotte giving up a second rounder

Batum is expiring so it's not a horrible situation for a team to take him back in a deal with Boston if they are not competing this season anyways.

[LofJ]

The Celtics aren't taking Batum. That does nothing for their team. They are hoping for a TPE and sending salary to another team for an asset.

Batum is a similar player to Hayward, but obviously not as good. They want the ability to stay over the cap, preferably with someone that can actually get minutes for them. Maybe they think Batum is motivated to get paid again and want to take advantage of that.

This board sometimes....

Every plugged in media person says Boston is giving up an asset to get the TPE.
Keith Smith, John Hollinger, etc...

Posters on this board.. "they are wrong, I know"

I am not sure they want Batum either, but he is basically a place holder for TPE and Boston will have to give up less assets to us for Batum then TPE. They then can use those assets saved to attach to Batum in a deal for a player they would of used the TPE on because they will have to attach assets to Batum or TPE in order to get a player regardless.

Exactly, if they take Batum they won't have to attach a valuable draft asset, so they'd be able to save that to later flip Batum for the player they want. Batum as a large expiring is more or less a massive TPE anyway. The only difference is I'm sure a cheap owner like Fertita would prefer for the other team to absord salary with nothing coming back (i.e. a TPE).

The benefit to us is that we would be under the cap and can either go out and sign someone else or use that space to to help a team shed salary for further draft compensation.

[countryboi]

"You want to clown the contract?" said Zach Lowe on The Lowe Post. "That's fine. Just know it's not like the Pacers and the Celtics were offering $80 million. They weren't offering $120 million. But my best intel is something like $105 million, $108 million, $102 million, $110 million. It's not like the delta was so huge."

https://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/260546/Celtics-Pacers-Were-Each-Offering-Gordon-Hayward-Four-Year-$100M+-Contracts

So fans can feel assured we weren't just bidding against ourselves.

[Rays Pompadour]

The kicker of the contract is the 4th year. $30M per isn't that out of whack - which I'm just fragged that I'm saying such a thing, but there you go. The 4th year was the price Charlotte paid to get their man. Hayward was looking for security with his haul and he got it with the Hornets. The competing numbers would have gone up, in my opinion, but it was the extra year that got the deal done and short-circuited the process. Plus, I think Hayward had his deal on the sly before he opted out. Whatever.

I cry not, even with the extra year. Trades happen.

[JMAC3]

If it makes anyone feel better Hayward was the 4th highest paid player in 2017/2018 season behind Curry, LBJ, Millsap at 29 million. If the deal turns out to be 30 million even he will be the 20th highest paid player in the league for essentially the same amount of money. My point being that in 3 or 4 years he will probably be paid as the 30-40 highest paid player so his deal might not be as "bad" in those seasons as some expect.

[BigSlam]

I cry not, even with the extra year. Trades happen.

Good in theory - but then you find yourself with contracts like Batums that you are stuck with and can't move....

[BigSlam]

If it makes anyone feel better Hayward was the 4th highest paid player in 2017/2018 season behind Curry, LBJ, Millsap at 29 million. If the deal turns out to be 30 million even he will be the 20th highest paid player in the league for essentially the same amount of money. My point being that in 3 or 4 years he will probably be paid as the 30-40 highest paid player so his deal might not be as "bad" in those seasons as some expect.

I do think this is a really valuable point.

The $7mil a year contracts that we handed out to players like Wallace back in the day that a lot of us winced at during that time are equal to more like $20mil a year contracts in todays climate.

It's all kinda relative.

[Rays Pompadour]

I cry not, even with the extra year. Trades happen.

Good in theory - but then you find yourself with contracts like Batums that you are stuck with and can't move....

Or Wall's.

Batum was never, ever going to live up to his contract after the crazy offseason following the big TV deal. That contract was considered, by some, to be an underpay for what Batum could have gotten on the open market. He lucked into the honey pot is all. Same with Marvin, but he was such a likeable guy who tried really hard, so his contract wasn't that hard to swallow.

I think Charlotte could have moved Batum if they were willing to attach a first round pick. I'm glad they didn't.

[yosemiteben]

I need this S&T to get finalized so I can stop checking RGM every five minutes.

[yazfan]

I need this S&T to get finalized so I can stop checking RGM every five minutes.

I need it to be finalized for

1. Order Jersey
2. Play with Hayward in NBA 2k21

[JMAC3]

Not sure if this really will tell us anything, but here is the Celtics roster right now. They are at 15 plus their 2 way contracts so initially doesn't look like they are saving a roster spot for a potential sign and trade with us. Again as many have stated, this is their roster heading into the season. Will not have anyway to sign anyone else to start the year, but a potential TPE/Batum would give them a 30 million dollar trade asset- which I assume they would waive Javonte Green.

Kemba
Smart
Brown
Tatum
Theis

6. Grant Williams
7. Robert Williams
8. Semi Ojeleye
9. Romeo Langford
10. Carson Edwards
11. Javonte Green
12. Tristian Thompson- FULL MLE
13. Jeff Teague- Vet Min
14. Aaron Nesmith
15. Payton Pritchard

Two Contracts
Tacko Fall
Tremont Waters

[Braggins]

Not sure if this really will tell us anything, but here is the Celtics roster right now. They are at 15 plus their 2 way contracts so initially doesn't look like they are saving a roster spot for a potential sign and trade with us. Again as many have stated, this is their roster heading into the season. Will not have anyway to sign anyone else to start the year, but a potential TPE/Batum would give them a 30 million dollar trade asset- which I assume they would waive Javonte Green.

Kemba
Smart
Brown
Tatum
Theis

6. Grant Williams
7. Robert Williams
8. Semi Ojeleye
9. Romeo Langford
10. Carson Edwards
11. Javonte Green
12. Tristian Thompson- FULL MLE
13. Jeff Teague- Vet Min
14. Aaron Nesmith
15. Payton Pritchard

Two Contracts
Tacko Fall
Tremont Waters

I'm skeptical that we would be getting any additional assets in a s&t scenario, but I would love to get Robert Williams from them. That would probably be preferable to getting a mediocre to bad pick.

A framework of Rozier for Hayward + Williams III, with maybe some 2nd round picks (not sure which way theyd be going), is probably my ideal option that doesn't involve a 3rd team or separate deal.

Graham/Monk/Riller
Hayward/Ball
Miles/Martin
PJ/McDaniels
Cody/RWIII/Biz

Another small benefit to sending them Rozier that I didn't think of at first is that it would allow us to get far enough under the cap that we could front load Haywards contract. 33/31/29/27 instead of 27/29/31/33(if we do a deal that barely gets us under the threshold to sign him). That would put us at -2 million for next offseason, but that just means shipping Rozier is +25 million instead of +27 million, so we'd still have a ton of space next offseason and Haywards contract would be more manageable in those last two years when we'll really need the space.

Edit: Front loading Haywards contract also maximizes the size of Bostons TPE in any scenario where we are sending them back salary.

[grindtime22]

Batum is a similar player to Hayward, but obviously not as good. They want the ability to stay over the cap, preferably with someone that can actually get minutes for them. Maybe they think Batum is motivated to get paid again and want to take advantage of that.

This board sometimes....

Every plugged in media person says Boston is giving up an asset to get the TPE.
Keith Smith, John Hollinger, etc...

Posters on this board.. "they are wrong, I know"

I am not sure they want Batum either, but he is basically a place holder for TPE and Boston will have to give up less assets to us for Batum then TPE. They then can use those assets saved to attach to Batum in a deal for a player they would of used the TPE on because they will have to attach assets to Batum or TPE in order to get a player regardless.

Exactly, if they take Batum they won't have to attach a valuable draft asset, so they'd be able to save that to later flip Batum for the player they want. Batum as a large expiring is more or less a massive TPE anyway. The only difference is I'm sure a cheap owner like Fertita would prefer for the other team to absord salary with nothing coming back (i.e. a TPE).

The benefit to us is that we would be under the cap and can either go out and sign someone else or use that space to to help a team shed salary for further draft compensation.

Just wanted to point out that the Celtics have already agreed to a full mid level deal with Tristan Thompson. This would complicate any deal with Batum coming back. Signing Thompson will kick in a hard cap, which means the Celtics can't just take back 27. It would be more in the 20 range. So, if the Celtics and Hornets are involved in anything with Batum coming out, it would have to rope in other teams.

The TPE also has a higher benefit, because it can be used for a full year (at least in a normal NBA timeline). That would include a S&T in free agency next year. Batum would have to used by the trade deadline.