Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXIX

[NatP4]

No thanks on moving Avdija. I like him more than Rui as a prospect.

I would be interested in trades that involve Rui, simply because Bonga and Brown can take on bigger roles and we can really go all in on Avdija’s development. All three of those guys can play multiple positions.

Remember, Rui is already 22 years old this season.

If Detroit says Hayes+Griffin for Wall+Rui and a 2021 1st, I would strongly consider.

I'm not trading a 2021 1st. The draft class is too strong.

Everyone says that until the season starts and NCAA freshman show that they actually are not that great then it turns into “a bunch of role players actually”.

How did you go from three 1sts attached to Wall to simply flipping 2020 draft picks with Detroit??? And where would Griffin play? Rui or Bryant goes to the bench?

[dckingsfan]

No thanks on moving Avdija. I like him more than Rui as a prospect.

I would be interested in trades that involve Rui, simply because Bonga and Brown can take on bigger roles and we can really go all in on Avdija’s development. All three of those guys can play multiple positions.

Remember, Rui is already 22 years old this season.

If Detroit says Hayes+Griffin for Wall+Rui and a 2021 1st, I would strongly consider.

I'm not trading a 2021 1st. The draft class is too strong.

Yeah, it would have to be a straight Hayes+Griffin for Wall+Rui. Are there any other players that could move from one roster to the other that would help the other team without hurting the other?

[nate33]

No thanks on moving Avdija. I like him more than Rui as a prospect.

I would be interested in trades that involve Rui, simply because Bonga and Brown can take on bigger roles and we can really go all in on Avdija’s development. All three of those guys can play multiple positions.

Remember, Rui is already 22 years old this season.

If Detroit says Hayes+Griffin for Wall+Rui and a 2021 1st, I would strongly consider.

I'm not trading a 2021 1st. The draft class is too strong.

Everyone says that until the season starts and NCAA freshman show that they actually are not that great then it turns into “a bunch of role players actually”.

How did you go from three 1sts attached to Wall to simply flipping 2020 draft picks with Detroit??? And where would Griffin play? Rui or Bryant goes to the bench?

Griffin is a terrible contract too. That's why Detroit might consider it. But yeah, at the moment, I think Detroit declines unless we include a pick. That might change mid-season if Wall plays well. If it doesn't change, then I wouldn't do the trade. I'd keep Wall before sacrificing a pick to dump him.

Hachimura would go to the bench. He'll still get plenty of minutes.

[NatP4]

I'm not trading a 2021 1st. The draft class is too strong.

Everyone says that until the season starts and NCAA freshman show that they actually are not that great then it turns into “a bunch of role players actually”.

How did you go from three 1sts attached to Wall to simply flipping 2020 draft picks with Detroit??? And where would Griffin play? Rui or Bryant goes to the bench?

Griffin is a terrible contract too. That's why Detroit might consider it. But yeah, at the moment, I think Detroit declines unless we include a pick. That might change mid-season if Wall plays well. If it doesn't change, then I wouldn't do the trade. I'd keep Wall before sacrificing a pick to dump him.

Hachimura would go to the bench. He'll still get plenty of minutes.

And Bertans plays at the 3 and gets roasted by athletic wings? And then who loses minutes between Brown and Bonga???

Also, Griffin didn’t tear his Achilles, I believe he simply at some soreness in his knee. He was also a good player before injury. His advanced numbers were up there with the best PFs in the league. Still doesn’t rebound, but he helps you win. Isn’t Griffin also on a 2 year contract as opposed to 3??

Griffin for Wall would have to include atleast one 1st round pick, Detroit probably wanted 9th overall also.

[dckingsfan]

If Detroit wants a pick - the answer is no (IMO).

[NatP4]

I agree with that. Sit tight unless some dumb team will take Wall without asking for 1st round picks or any of Beal, Bryant, Bonga, Rui, Brown, Avdija

If they don’t want a couple 2nds, Robinson, and Wagner, just walk away!!

[nate33]

Everyone says that until the season starts and NCAA freshman show that they actually are not that great then it turns into “a bunch of role players actually”.

How did you go from three 1sts attached to Wall to simply flipping 2020 draft picks with Detroit??? And where would Griffin play? Rui or Bryant goes to the bench?

Griffin is a terrible contract too. That's why Detroit might consider it. But yeah, at the moment, I think Detroit declines unless we include a pick. That might change mid-season if Wall plays well. If it doesn't change, then I wouldn't do the trade. I'd keep Wall before sacrificing a pick to dump him.

Hachimura would go to the bench. He'll still get plenty of minutes.

And Bertans plays at the 3 and gets roasted by athletic wings? And then who loses minutes between Brown and Bonga???

Also, Griffin didn’t tear his Achilles, I believe he simply at some soreness in his knee. He was also a good player before injury. His advanced numbers were up there with the best PFs in the league. Still doesn’t rebound, but he helps you win. Isn’t Griffin also on a 2 year contract as opposed to 3??

Griffin for Wall would have to include atleast one 1st round pick, Detroit probably wanted 9th overall also.

How many times to I have to say it? If Detroit demands a pick in the transaction, then I wouldn't do it.

If the straight up trade was made (Wall+Avdija for Griffin+Hayes) then I'm not too worried about our rotation afterwards. Your concerns about guys like Bonga and Hachimura are not significant enough to worry me. Those guys haven't done enough for their minutes should be guaranteed. It's not like our forward situation is established at the moment anyhow. I'd probably start Bonga and Griffin and bring Bertans and Hachimura off the bench.

[The Consiglieri]

No thanks on moving Avdija. I like him more than Rui as a prospect.

I would be interested in trades that involve Rui, simply because Bonga and Brown can take on bigger roles and we can really go all in on Avdija’s development. All three of those guys can play multiple positions.

Remember, Rui is already 22 years old this season.

If Detroit says Hayes+Griffin for Wall+Rui and a 2021 1st, I would strongly consider.

I'm not trading a 2021 1st. The draft class is too strong.

Everyone says that until the season starts and NCAA freshman show that they actually are not that great then it turns into “a bunch of role players actually”.

How did you go from three 1sts attached to Wall to simply flipping 2020 draft picks with Detroit??? And where would Griffin play? Rui or Bryant goes to the bench?

I don't think that's really true. Classes are classes. Evaluations of talent will always have misses both in terms of overrated prospects, and underrated prospects, and of course mental make up is a huge piece of an evaluation that is often ignored until much later down the line.

The classes that have been dismissed over the years have been bad. I can't recall a single pre-supposed bad class, that turned into a great or deep one. There have certainly been cases of misevaluated guys in bad classes that end up being studs ('13 is a good example where they missed on every single elite player in evaluating that class), but in general, a class that's perceived as bad is bad, and if it's perceived as good, it's rare that it's bad, sometimes it's uneven or just plays out to be average, but over the years nearly every class I thought sucked, pretty much did.

The '19 class was regarded as lacking in any top end talent, but reasonable in terms of rotational talent. It was probably a top 4-5 worst top end talent class over the past 25 years. Otoh, that does benefit a team like ours, where because of that, you could easily end up w/the best player at the bottom of the top 10 or in the midst of the 11-20 or beyond. The '21 class seems to have an above average to good grade. My chief concern w/the current eval is the lost season we're going to have. Covid is going to make evaluating the talent more difficult than last year and when you consider that the top end prospects in most classes are 19, that's an enormous problem. We'll see how it plays out, this will probably end up as one of the weirder drafts of the century just simply on how the college basketball season involves as the pandemic worsens over the next 2+ months. I suspect the college basketball season either isn't happening, or is drastically trimmed. We've never seen this happen. How does that impact evaluations? It's gonna be huge.

[The Consiglieri]

Pistons called to explore a Griffin-Wall deal. I’m assuming they asked for a 1st round pick, or multiple 1sts ontop of that.

Here's the link:

Read on Twitter

The only way it would make sense is if the trade also incorporated a swap of Killian Hayes and one of Avdija or Hachimura. I absolutely would not include any future picks.

It's worth noting that what it shouldn't include is EXACTLY what Detroit will be asking for. I think people are coming up w/some interesting counters to their ask, but what Detroit's trying to do is what any sane GM is trying to do.

We've got a bad contract.

You've got a bad contract and a terrible news cycle.

We'll take your bad contract and bad news cycle/potential cancer if you give us a future unprotected first, preferably your '21 first.

That's the ask. That's always the ask. I always find it amusing that Bill Simmons and his Boston colored glasses never applies the same circumspect attitude to trades for other teams that he would for his own, probably partly because his teams are mostly blessed with GM's disinclined to make stupid decisions, so he can't imagine them making those kinds of moves. He and Jackie talked about this on their podcast, and talked up the idea of a '21 1st and Wall for Blake Griffin. Part of their thinking came from the "Beal is gonna run out of patience angle", and one of the two of them talked about how to have protections w/the first. Regardless there is zero chance I would include a first period, and that's the only way to get any of these deals done.

The deals are predicated on, you give us the poison you have to drink, sweeten it w/a first, and we'll drink it instead. It's a rebuilding trade, we did it ourselves years ago, that's how they're done/built, period. They don't toss prospects back, they say, give us a legit asset, and we'll eat the contract. That's it. This is slightly different because bad contracts are being exchanged, but we're still in the weaker position in every single potential exchange.

You have to either be okay for selling out the future for a non-existent present, or not be okay with it. That's it. I'm not okay with it. Period. I will not trade away future firsts to make Beal or Wall happy. We've traded away enough future firsts in trying to build around both of them to no positive effect. We need to be done w/doing that. If Beal's not happy and can't be happy, trade him quietly before the stink of Aldridge type stories cuts his potential value, if Wall's not happy, he has to sit and eat it until he's movable. It's really that simple.

[penbeast0]

Never mind.

[payitforward]

Hayes can play the 2 - though he'll want to be a ball dominant player. It might actually be good for him to learn to play off the ball. He's just 19, so I wouldn't pigeonhole him now as strictly a PG, and Wall could take some of the pressure off him.

I was talking about making the deal work for us. We can't have a team with Griffin, Hachimura, Avdija, Bertans and Bonga all vying for forward minutes, while at the same time having no starting-caliber PG. Incorporating an Advija for Hayes swap balances both rosters nicely.

I'd a lot prefer it be Hachimmura rather than Avdija -- but the truth is... neither of those is a trade I'd be completely sure to make. The only benefit I see in having Griffin in place of Wall is that it would shorten our salary obligations by a year.

That's big, admittedly. But... I think John Wall has a pretty good chance to be a very good player again, while Blake Griffin is pretty much cooked. In any case, he was never the great player people wanted to believe he was (yes, Griffin was very good).

Now... if Hachimura was exchanged for Hayes in the deal, that might change things for me. I think Hayes has the greater upside. I wouldn't include Avdija in this deal. Not a chance.

[nate33]

The only benefit I see in having Griffin in place of Wall is that it would shorten our salary obligations by a year.

Yes. That's the reason to do the trade.

[Ruzious]

The only benefit I see in having Griffin in place of Wall is that it would shorten our salary obligations by a year.

Yes. That's the reason to do the trade.

And a 2 year contract is more movable than a 3 year contract that ends at $48 million.

[payitforward]

...I gotta admit, a Detroit trade where we trade Wall + Advija for Hayes + Griffin is pretty intriguing. Better still if we can flip Griffin for, say, Aaron Gordon + Aminu.

So, in effect, Wall & Avdija for Hayes, Aaron Gordon & Aminu. I hadn't thought of that additional option.

I guess it would be pretty good for us -- especially given I feel like I wouldn't do the deal if I were Orlando or Detroit, come to think of it!

Detroit seems to be engaged in a complete rebuild; I can't see them wanting to lengthen their salary obligations by taking on Wall. The fit doesn't seem right either.

OTOH, if Orlando would take Griffin straight up for Gordon & Aminu, maybe they'd do the same to get Wall?

Say Wall & Rui for Gordon, Aminu & Isaac -- would that make any sense?

[payitforward]

And Detroit's roster is so bad that players like Wagner and Jerome Robinson could have real value for them and possibly start for them.

They have all new FO people & are starting over. Let's assume they're not stupid, so they aren't going to over-value Wagner & Robinson -- both of whom were last traded for... nothing. Wall doesn't fit either.

[Ruzious]

And Detroit's roster is so bad that players like Wagner and Jerome Robinson could have real value for them and possibly start for them.

They have all new FO people & are starting over. Let's assume they're not stupid, so they aren't going to over-value Wagner & Robinson -- both of whom were last traded for... nothing. Wall doesn't fit either.

Lol, I'm talking about them being sweeteners to a deal - and Detroit having a use for them isn't a stupid thought. And Griffin's an even worse fit for them than Wall is - he's just about 2 years older - and he's in clear decline mode. Of course Detroit's not going to get good fits for Griffin - Have you looked at his contract?

[TGW]

Bill Simmons is claiming that Beal is the one who tried to get Wall traded for Westbrook.

https://blacksportsonline.com/2020/11/bill-simmons-accuses-bradley-beal-of-trying-to-get-john-wall-traded-for-westbrook/

[payitforward]

And Detroit's roster is so bad that players like Wagner and Jerome Robinson could have real value for them and possibly start for them.

They have all new FO people & are starting over. Let's assume they're not stupid, so they aren't going to over-value Wagner & Robinson -- both of whom were last traded for... nothing. Wall doesn't fit either.

Lol, I'm talking about them being sweeteners to a deal - and Detroit having a use for them isn't a stupid thought. And Griffin's an even worse fit for them than Wall is - he's just about 2 years older - and he's in clear decline mode. Of course Detroit's not going to get good fits for Griffin - Have you looked at his contract?

Fair enough -- but for their sake & their fans' sakes, I hope to god they find guys to start who are better than Wagner & Robinson!

[Ruzious]

They have all new FO people & are starting over. Let's assume they're not stupid, so they aren't going to over-value Wagner & Robinson -- both of whom were last traded for... nothing. Wall doesn't fit either.

Lol, I'm talking about them being sweeteners to a deal - and Detroit having a use for them isn't a stupid thought. And Griffin's an even worse fit for them than Wall is - he's just about 2 years older - and he's in clear decline mode. Of course Detroit's not going to get good fits for Griffin - Have you looked at his contract?

Fair enough -- but for their sake & their fans' sakes, I hope to god they find guys to start who are better than Wagner & Robinson!

Like who? The only center on their roster is Dedmon - and they only got him after he was recently cut. And they have nothing but journeymen at the 2.

[dckingsfan]

Pistons called to explore a Griffin-Wall deal. I’m assuming they asked for a 1st round pick, or multiple 1sts ontop of that.

Here's the link:

Read on Twitter

The only way it would make sense is if the trade also incorporated a swap of Killian Hayes and one of Avdija or Hachimura. I absolutely would not include any future picks.

It's worth noting that what it shouldn't include is EXACTLY what Detroit will be asking for. I think people are coming up w/some interesting counters to their ask, but what Detroit's trying to do is what any sane GM is trying to do.

We've got a bad contract.

You've got a bad contract and a terrible news cycle.

We'll take your bad contract and bad news cycle/potential cancer if you give us a future unprotected first, preferably your '21 first.

That's the ask. That's always the ask. I always find it amusing that Bill Simmons and his Boston colored glasses never applies the same circumspect attitude to trades for other teams that he would for his own, probably partly because his teams are mostly blessed with GM's disinclined to make stupid decisions, so he can't imagine them making those kinds of moves. He and Jackie talked about this on their podcast, and talked up the idea of a '21 1st and Wall for Blake Griffin. Part of their thinking came from the "Beal is gonna run out of patience angle", and one of the two of them talked about how to have protections w/the first. Regardless there is zero chance I would include a first period, and that's the only way to get any of these deals done.

The deals are predicated on, you give us the poison you have to drink, sweeten it w/a first, and we'll drink it instead. It's a rebuilding trade, we did it ourselves years ago, that's how they're done/built, period. They don't toss prospects back, they say, give us a legit asset, and we'll eat the contract. That's it. This is slightly different because bad contracts are being exchanged, but we're still in the weaker position in every single potential exchange.

You have to either be okay for selling out the future for a non-existent present, or not be okay with it. That's it. I'm not okay with it. Period. I will not trade away future firsts to make Beal or Wall happy. We've traded away enough future firsts in trying to build around both of them to no positive effect. We need to be done w/doing that. If Beal's not happy and can't be happy, trade him quietly before the stink of Aldridge type stories cuts his potential value, if Wall's not happy, he has to sit and eat it until he's movable. It's really that simple.