Fool Me Twice: The Gordon Hayward Thread

[Braggins]

I think them preferring to move Batum instead of Rozier is a pretty clear signal that the front office thinks they are going to be a competitive playoff team this year lol. I also think there is a good chance they want the extra cap space this offseason to sign Whiteside.

Edit: I've completely lost any faith I previously had in the new front office.

[JMAC3]

And if the plan is to keep Rozier and trade Batum they aren't going to have much cap space next offseason to do anything except resign Graham. Oh, and we'll probably lose Monk and/or Miles for cap reasons even if they break out and they want to keep them. This is literally perfect deja vu of the last failed rebuild.

Breath bud... If we trade Batum and keep Rozier, we will still have about 40 Million in cap space once we renounce rights to Zeller. Monk and Graham total 15 in cap holds so that leaves about 25 million in free cap if we want to retain both of them. If monk signs for less annually than his 13 million dollar cap hold it could open another three million or so. or if we trade Monk now or decide to let him walk then we have enough space to offer a Max contract because that would give us 38 million in cap space or so and then still be able to resign Graham.

The following summer Rozier expires right as Bridges hits free agency so we will have some options in the summer of 2022 depends on how everything plays out.

[JMAC3]

Obviously wouldn't be my first choice, but I would consider trading a lottery protected pick to OKC to take on Batum. Why?

It would open up 20 million cap space right now even after Hayward signing.
It would open up 9 million in cap space next summer.
and 9 million in cap space summer after next.

40 Million is a lot of cheddar to have available for 1 pick outside lottery.

Assuming it is lottery protected, it is not all that difficult to pick up a first in the 20-25 range.

I think this is a do the deal now type thing, and try best to restock the asset later situation.

Could be a deal where we then sign Whiteside to a 1/15 deal and then at deadline look to flip him for a late first to replace the pick we lost. When all is said and done that is better to me then having the dead cap.

Every worthwhile player has already been signed. The extra cap this offseason from moving Batum is useless and any extra cap space it would create next offseason we'd be getting anyways because his deal is expiring (assuming there is another way to avoid stretching him). Giving up a 1st to move Batum's contract would be just as bad as stretching him.

Or we could use that 20 million this season to collect a few extra contracts teams don't want for picks... or roll into the season under the cap and help facilitate trades at deadline for teams for assets. There is no rule that says we have to spend the money now.

[DY_nasty]

Obviously wouldn't be my first choice, but I would consider trading a lottery protected pick to OKC to take on Batum. Why?

It would open up 20 million cap space right now even after Hayward signing.
It would open up 9 million in cap space next summer.
and 9 million in cap space summer after next.

40 Million is a lot of cheddar to have available for 1 pick outside lottery.

Assuming it is lottery protected, it is not all that difficult to pick up a first in the 20-25 range.

I think this is a do the deal now type thing, and try best to restock the asset later situation.

Could be a deal where we then sign Whiteside to a 1/15 deal and then at deadline look to flip him for a late first to replace the pick we lost. When all is said and done that is better to me then having the dead cap.

Every worthwhile player has already been signed. The extra cap this offseason from moving Batum is useless and any extra cap space it would create next offseason we'd be getting anyways because his deal is expiring (assuming there is another way to avoid stretching him). Giving up a 1st to move Batum's contract would be just as bad as stretching him.

Or we could use that 20 million this season to collect a few extra contracts teams don't want for picks... or roll into the season under the cap and help facilitate trades at deadline for teams for assets. There is no rule that says we have to spend the money now.

There's no decent long-term plan in any of that though.

[Braggins]

Obviously wouldn't be my first choice, but I would consider trading a lottery protected pick to OKC to take on Batum. Why?

It would open up 20 million cap space right now even after Hayward signing.
It would open up 9 million in cap space next summer.
and 9 million in cap space summer after next.

40 Million is a lot of cheddar to have available for 1 pick outside lottery.

Assuming it is lottery protected, it is not all that difficult to pick up a first in the 20-25 range.

I think this is a do the deal now type thing, and try best to restock the asset later situation.

Could be a deal where we then sign Whiteside to a 1/15 deal and then at deadline look to flip him for a late first to replace the pick we lost. When all is said and done that is better to me then having the dead cap.

Every worthwhile player has already been signed. The extra cap this offseason from moving Batum is useless and any extra cap space it would create next offseason we'd be getting anyways because his deal is expiring (assuming there is another way to avoid stretching him). Giving up a 1st to move Batum's contract would be just as bad as stretching him.

Or we could use that 20 million this season to collect a few extra contracts teams don't want for picks... or roll into the season under the cap and help facilitate trades at deadline for teams for assets. There is no rule that says we have to spend the money now.

Any contract a team would be willing to use picks to move is going to be a longer term deal. Taking on more long term money just compounds any future cap issues. That option is basically off the table once we sign Haywards deal. Doing nothing with the cap space would be the best option, but at that point it would just be better to move long term salary instead of Batum's.

[SWedd523]

I see no incentive to giving Boston a big fat TPE for Hayward. **** Ainge. I'd rather see them stretch Batum and sign Hayward outright

[LofJ]

I see no incentive to giving Boston a big fat TPE for Hayward. **** Ainge. I'd rather see them stretch Batum and sign Hayward outright

I enjoy some pettiness, but being spiteful to the point of self-harm is dumb. If stretching Batum can be avoided it is dereliction of duty to not do so.

[HornetsFan29]

still say Cody would be a great fit for boston.Kemba likes him and center is a need even after them signing thomson Cody is better than thompson and would help them. maybe boston could send us a few 2nds if we send them cody for helping them out.

[SWedd523]

I see no incentive to giving Boston a big fat TPE for Hayward. **** Ainge. I'd rather see them stretch Batum and sign Hayward outright

I enjoy some pettiness, but being spiteful to the point of self-harm is dumb. If stretching Batum can be avoided it is dereliction of duty to not do so.

False

The damage done to a competitor outweighs the self harm in this case.

You remember the Die Hard movie where Bruce shot himself through the shoulder to kill the guy behind him?

Yeah. Like that


Edit: if Batum is going to a third team any way. Just do that trade before signing Hayward. Done.

Next question

[JMAC3]

I see no incentive to giving Boston a big fat TPE for Hayward. **** Ainge. I'd rather see them stretch Batum and sign Hayward outright

Dumping Batum for one team is an expensive task, but I think the goal here is for Boston and Charlotte to split that cost so Boston gets the TPE and Charlotte gets Hayward without putting an ugly mark on our books.

Sure if Boston is not willing to pitch in on a three team deal, I don't see the value in them giving us a 2nd rounder for the TPE.

Here is my calculations of teams with Cap Space as of now without knowing every single Trade Exception a team could of used.

Kings~9 million once they sign Haliburton. Plus their MLE (can't be combined with cap space).
OKC 15 million (stealing this number from cap gawd Hollinger) plus a Adams exception (27 million).
Knicks have roughly 21 million after signing Toppin to his rookie deal.
Hawks have less than 2 million left after Bogi trade

And that is it...
Significance is we need to be able to make up 8 million in a trade so that team needs to have that much cap space available. So we are down to three suitors in Kings, Knicks and OKC as a third team. Only other options are 2 way deal with Boston. Or waiving Batum.

[therebirth]

I don’t have faith in Mitch in any trade scenario. His thing is drafting not trades

[James Gatz]

I see no incentive to giving Boston a big fat TPE for Hayward. **** Ainge. I'd rather see them stretch Batum and sign Hayward outright

I enjoy some pettiness, but being spiteful to the point of self-harm is dumb. If stretching Batum can be avoided it is dereliction of duty to not do so.

False

The damage done to a competitor outweighs the self harm in this case.

You remember the Die Hard movie where Bruce shot himself through the shoulder to kill the guy behind him?

Yeah. Like that


Edit: if Batum is going to a third team any way. Just do that trade before signing Hayward. Done.

Next question

If there were only two teams in the NBA then you can make that argument. Also Celtics are competing for the title this year. We are not, even if we think we are. We're not exactly competitors in this case.

Also even if we end up stretching Batum we'd still make it a S&T and get a 2nd from Boston for the TPE.

[SWedd523]

I enjoy some pettiness, but being spiteful to the point of self-harm is dumb. If stretching Batum can be avoided it is dereliction of duty to not do so.

False

The damage done to a competitor outweighs the self harm in this case.

You remember the Die Hard movie where Bruce shot himself through the shoulder to kill the guy behind him?

Yeah. Like that


Edit: if Batum is going to a third team any way. Just do that trade before signing Hayward. Done.

Next question

If there were only two teams in the NBA then you can make that argument. Also Celtics are competing for the title this year. We are not, even if we think we are. We're not exactly competitors in this case.

Also even if we end up stretching Batum we'd still make it a S&T and get a 2nd from Boston for the TPE.

Again

Batum is going to a third team

If you want out of the contract, deal directly with that third team and cut Boston out

I don't view a 50-55th pick in a future draft as anywhere near as valuable as a massive TPE

So again

**** 100% of gifting Boston room to deal for little to nothing in return

[James Gatz]

False

The damage done to a competitor outweighs the self harm in this case.

You remember the Die Hard movie where Bruce shot himself through the shoulder to kill the guy behind him?

Yeah. Like that


Edit: if Batum is going to a third team any way. Just do that trade before signing Hayward. Done.

Next question

If there were only two teams in the NBA then you can make that argument. Also Celtics are competing for the title this year. We are not, even if we think we are. We're not exactly competitors in this case.

Also even if we end up stretching Batum we'd still make it a S&T and get a 2nd from Boston for the TPE.

Again

Batum is going to a third team

If you want out of the contract, deal directly with that third team and cut Boston out

I don't view a 50-55th pick in a future draft as anywhere near as valuable as a massive TPE

So again

**** 100% of gifting Boston room to deal for little to nothing in return

Like JMAC said, if a 3rd team is involved they would be getting both assets from Boston and likely us. Couple of options:

1) We stretch Batum and take 9 mil cap hit for 3 years.
2) We find a third team and give up a small asset(s). Maybe our bad 2nds next year and BOS gives up something else.
3) We cut Boston out of the deal and give up a better asset. 2021 1st, Bridges, etc.
4) We do the S&T with Boston get back the 2023 from Rockets or 2025 from Griz or some combination

For me, I'd go option 2. I don't want to trade a 1st or Bridges to get off Batum. If we have to stretch him I'd rather get something than nothing.

You can choose to hate Boston if you want but it's an emotional move, not a logical one.

[HornetsFan29]

I don’t have faith in Mitch in any trade scenario. His thing is drafting not trades

the funny thing is Cho was great in trades but sucked in drafting.Why can't our GM ever be good at both?

[amcoolio]

I would give up a lottery protected first to OKC or NYC just to not have Batum's wretched vomit on the capsheet for 3 years

[MasterIchiro]

Jesus FC

[SWedd523]

You can choose to hate Boston if you want but it's an emotional move, not a logical one.

You want to know the hilariously ironic part of your statement?

The fact that the actual logical move would've been to either have signed Hayward to a contract the team actually could afford, or not doing it at all.

Instead they're going to pay huge money to a guy who probably won't produce at that level and have to **** themselves over by eating Batum's contract or giving up assets to make paying Hayward huge money possible.

lOgIcAl

[JMAC3]

You can choose to hate Boston if you want but it's an emotional move, not a logical one.

You want to know the hilariously ironic part of your statement?

The fact that the actual logical move would've been to either have signed Hayward to a contract the team actually could afford, or not doing it at all.


lOgIcAl

Right, but what are we going to do turn the game off and start a new franchise? I think we would all chose that option if it were an option at that point. We are all just trying to solve the problem while you are just pointing at the team mad.

[SWedd523]

Don't get mad at me because the FO loves screwing up on a regular basis