ATL - 20-21 Season Begins

[Frank Nova]

Nothing to do now. For those of you familiar with his game, who else is similar to Bogdan?

Sam Merrill

[raferfenix]

I didn’t really buy that the Bucks were so vested in Schroder until this new report about the extent to which we were vested in Bogdan.

Certainly could work out for the best considering Holiday is far and away the best player we were linked to.

However if we made this deal recklessly I also wonder how sure we are that Holiday is extending.

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[WRau1]

How did the Bucks get outbid for Schroder but got bent over a barrel for Holiday?

[trwi7]

Bottom line, I hate the NBA even more after this. They don't even attempt to level the playing field.

I'm as much in the league sucks category as anyone.

However, as more comes out on this story, it sure feels like the Bucks had the deal with Bogdan at $18 million a year, did the Jrue trade, then someone later pointed out that with Jrue's $4.5 million bonus clause going against the hard cap, they could only pay Bogdan $15 million.

Doesn't missing that Jrue salary cap nuance now fit, given what happened with Pat a couple days later?

Noted basketball expert Hon Jorst.

[theFireBlanket]

How did the Bucks get outbid for Schroder but got bent over a barrel for Holiday?

That cat Schröder isn't as good as Holiday, they didn't feel pressed to send much more.

But then the Bucks got trigger happy & failed to try sending out enough salary to keep Bogdan's 18 million. The failure of the Jrue trade was not clearing enough salary, if not moreso falling into the trap of Silver's microscope for tampering

[theFireBlanket]

Noted basketball expert Hon Jorst.

As PP often suggests he may just do bidding for Lasry & in that case, who's actually doing the math? You'd hope he could still figure out the numbers & tell Marc that a change is needed to meet Bogdan's $18 per.

Ultimately, I think floating the info out for rival execs killed the deal. They had the Bucks swimming in tampering waters, smelling the blood & ready to kill.

[RiotPunch]

Bottom line, I hate the NBA even more after this. They don't even attempt to level the playing field.

I'm as much in the league sucks category as anyone.

However, as more comes out on this story, it sure feels like the Bucks had the deal with Bogdan at $18 million a year, did the Jrue trade, then someone later pointed out that with Jrue's $4.5 million bonus clause going against the hard cap, they could only pay Bogdan $15 million.

Doesn't missing that Jrue salary cap nuance now fit, given what happened with Pat a couple days later?

To turn the clock back even further, deciding to waive and stretch Jon Leuer cost us the difference between unacceptable and acceptable money for Bogdan after the Jrue trade.

Had we just bitten that bullet right away, or applied to the league to have it forgiven, we might have closed the deal to get them both. Leaky Lasrys probably would have brought that ship down though anyways.

Point is, the devil is in the details, and Horst has proven time and time again to not be a salary cap expert. Small markets MUST win on the margins.

[coolhandluke121]

Giannis was talking with him for months, Bogdan wanted to play with him, the Kings wanted to S&T with us and nobody else was willing to pay him more that what we offered him.
It seemed like a simple deal to make and complete, it didn't require much to please Giannis and we somehow **** up in the end.

In hindsight, I'd rather we just did the Bogdan deal, kept Bledsoe and Hill, and figured out a different deal that wouldn't have cost as much in assets as Jrue.

I agree 100%. Or trade Bledsoe in the Brogdan deal so they could save some filler salaries for other deals.

It really does sound like the basic deal was there but Bogdan thought the Bucks were sending out enough salary to match his market offers, with Bledsoe as the main salary piece. Then they made the Jrue and assumed the Bogdan deal was still there but hadn't worked out the terms of the contract. It really does sound like exactly what they said it was - Brogdan and his agent never agreed to the specific terms of the contract and the Kings and/or Bucks assumed they were paying him enough. Definitely plenty of blame on the Bucks for that, but the real problem is how much they gave up for Jrue to get themselves into that situation in the first place. Very embarrassing, but it actually does sound like they weren't tampering and that's precisely why they had some miscommunication about Bogdan's starting salary.

[coolhandluke121]

Bottom line, I hate the NBA even more after this. They don't even attempt to level the playing field.

I'm as much in the league sucks category as anyone.

However, as more comes out on this story, it sure feels like the Bucks had the deal with Bogdan at $18 million a year, did the Jrue trade, then someone later pointed out that with Jrue's $4.5 million bonus clause going against the hard cap, they could only pay Bogdan $15 million.

Doesn't missing that Jrue salary cap nuance now fit, given what happened with Pat a couple days later?

To turn the clock back even further, deciding to waive and stretch Jon Leuer cost us the difference between unacceptable and acceptable money for Bogdan after the Jrue trade.

Had we just bitten that bullet right away, or applied to the league to have it forgiven, we might have closed the deal to get them both. Leaky Lasrys probably would have brought that ship down though anyways.

Point is, the devil is in the details, and Horst has proven time and time again to not be a salary cap expert. Small markets MUST win on the margins.

I would argue that there's a much more sinister motive to these so-called mistakes and misjudgments, and that is avoiding the luxury tax while being able to make excuses that they aren't allowed to spend that much. Stretching Leuer and waiving Hill to re-sign him were done in order to go way under the cap to pay Brook, whose Bird Rights they didn't have, more than the MLE. However, there's not much evidence that they had to pay Brook that much, and it was a little too convenient that they had to pay him the exact amount that allowed them to sign-and-trade Brogdon but not to match offers (that's the difference between his QO and his cap hold). It also left them with just the room MLE and no chance of going into the tax even if they wanted to. And they had Bird Rights to everyone else, so they could have spent the full MLE and gone all the way up to the tax apron without those moves. The risk was losing Brook to a team paying him more than MLE, but his options were limited because of all the great players who were changing teams and eating up cap space.

What I'm saying is, if you accept the premise that they're really just trying to dodge the tax without being obvious about it, then you start to realize that they actually are great are managing the cap for that purpose. I'm also arguing that fitting Brook under the cap, instead of hoping to get him with the MLE, was a very costly gamble because they could have had Hill's bird rights and re-signed him much cheaper and they would have had Leuer's expiring deal as well. That's before you even consider the fact that they would have had a chance to use the MLE on someone else or match the offer for Brogdon if Brook hadn't re-signed. And technically I think they could have paid a lot of tax for just one year to match Brogdon's even after giving the Brook MLE. So it's actually kind of astounding that they did it the way they did, unless you're 100% sure Brook demanded his current deal. (I seem to recall you and Luessi and I didn't even want to give him the full MLE.)

[Baddy Chuck]

How did the Bucks get outbid for Schroder but got bent over a barrel for Holiday?

I'm not even convinced we were going after Schroder as our starting point guard, a player who hasn't been very good as a starting point guard. And judging by what outbid us, we didn't think he was very good either.

[FlagsFlyForever]

I wish billionaires bought the Brewers, the Bucks owners are much more willing to spend big on payroll to win a championship, while the Brewers won't be spending much and may even be reducing their payroll for next season.

The Brewers owner Mark Attanasio should change his name to Mark Scrooge, it has been quite depressing being a Brewers fan.

Milwaukee's payroll regularly outranks their market size but they are handicapped by being the smallest market in a league where there is no salary cap. It doesn't matter who the owner is, they will never be able to compete with the Yankees or Dodgers in payroll.

[RiotPunch]

I'm as much in the league sucks category as anyone.

However, as more comes out on this story, it sure feels like the Bucks had the deal with Bogdan at $18 million a year, did the Jrue trade, then someone later pointed out that with Jrue's $4.5 million bonus clause going against the hard cap, they could only pay Bogdan $15 million.

Doesn't missing that Jrue salary cap nuance now fit, given what happened with Pat a couple days later?

To turn the clock back even further, deciding to waive and stretch Jon Leuer cost us the difference between unacceptable and acceptable money for Bogdan after the Jrue trade.

Had we just bitten that bullet right away, or applied to the league to have it forgiven, we might have closed the deal to get them both. Leaky Lasrys probably would have brought that ship down though anyways.

Point is, the devil is in the details, and Horst has proven time and time again to not be a salary cap expert. Small markets MUST win on the margins.

I would argue that there's a much more sinister motive to these so-called mistakes and misjudgments, and that is avoiding the luxury tax while being able to make excuses that they aren't allowed to spend that much. Stretching Leuer and waiving Hill to re-sign him were done in order to go way under the cap to pay Brook, whose Bird Rights they didn't have, more than the MLE. However, there's not much evidence that they had to pay Brook that much, and it was a little too convenient that they had to pay him the exact amount that allowed them to sign-and-trade Brogdon but not to match offers (that's the difference between his QO and his cap hold). It also left them with just the room MLE and no chance of going into the tax even if they wanted to. And they had Bird Rights to everyone else, so they could have spent the full MLE and gone all the way up to the tax apron without those moves. The risk was losing Brook to a team paying him more than MLE, but his options were limited because of all the great players who were changing teams and eating up cap space.

What I'm saying is, if you accept the premise that they're really just trying to dodge the tax without being obvious about it, then you start to realize that they actually are great are managing the cap for that purpose. I'm also arguing that fitting Brook under the cap, instead of hoping to get him with the MLE, was a very costly gamble because they could have had Hill's bird rights and re-signed him much cheaper and they would have had Leuer's expiring deal as well. That's before you even consider the fact that they would have had a chance to use the MLE on someone else or match the offer for Brogdon if Brook hadn't re-signed. And technically I think they could have paid a lot of tax for just one year to match Brogdon's even after giving the Brook MLE. So it's actually kind of astounding that they did it the way they did, unless you're 100% sure Brook demanded his current deal. (I seem to recall you and Luessi and I didn't even want to give him the full MLE.)

True. They are tax dodging experts. Quite the elaborate gymnastics to get to mediocre outcomes. Yeah, as much as I like Brook, I've always valued him less than most. I thought we'd be able to keep him for partial MLE money back then.

[midranger]

Your a answer is stupid, of course it reflects on the player, the fact 2 teams wanted Donte as the central figure and the Bucks valued him so highly tells you just how good he is. If Giannis gets over this and signs the extension, the Bucks sheer incompetence might actually prove to be a benefit, in this 1 particular case.

I’m surprised they didn’t insist on all the other young assets and draft picks we had left after the Jrue trade.

Or they just didn’t have to trade with the Bucks

They didn’t.

[stellation]

I just noticed my auto renewal email for League Pass (I'm a non-VPN, pay the crazy AU price guy). No "last season was reduced, this one is too" or "annual auto renewal = x%" (which there was going into last season) discounts. Sheeeeeeeeeeesh.

[HKPackFan]

Guy must suck.

DJ is from Sacramento, Ersan lives in Mequon with the family.

Had to have been Donte and girlfriend searching for a home in Sacramento. And if we're at that point, it certainly tells you a deal was agreed on in some form quite early.

ETA: A point being hinted to on all these stories is that we promised Bogdan $18 million a year, but after the Jrue trade didn't realize we couldn't do that anymore. That angle would line up with the Pat mess.

I seriously come here just for the PP stalking/detective work.

[slicedbread2]

Bottom line, I hate the NBA even more after this. They don't even attempt to level the playing field.

I'm as much in the league sucks category as anyone.

However, as more comes out on this story, it sure feels like the Bucks had the deal with Bogdan at $18 million a year, did the Jrue trade, then someone later pointed out that with Jrue's $4.5 million bonus clause going against the hard cap, they could only pay Bogdan $15 million.

Doesn't missing that Jrue salary cap nuance now fit, given what happened with Pat a couple days later?

To turn the clock back even further, deciding to waive and stretch Jon Leuer cost us the difference between unacceptable and acceptable money for Bogdan after the Jrue trade.

Had we just bitten that bullet right away, or applied to the league to have it forgiven, we might have closed the deal to get them both. Leaky Lasrys probably would have brought that ship down though anyways.

Point is, the devil is in the details, and Horst has proven time and time again to not be a salary cap expert. Small markets MUST win on the margins.

It's actually concerning when you think about what has truly led to this debacle. I know this may sound harsh, but to play devil's advocate the league had actually sent memos about tampering especially after the debacle that was last year's FA. The raptors had to deal with the Clippers' BS of sending Lawrence Frank to follow Kawhi around and Ballmer doing underhanded dealings with Kawhi's camp. The crazy part in all of that was that it nearly fell apart when Lowry and Vanvleet were livid at Kawhi's nonsense such as being late for team flights and a bunch of other dirty laundry that resulted in Masai and co. having an emergency meeting with Lowry. In spite of the best case scenario, Kawhi went home and looks like a clown now esp. with LeGM winning.

The worrisome nature of all of this makes me wonder how they screwed it up and here's what I saw from an outsider perspective:

-Trading Tony Snell with your 2019 1st for Jon Leuer. It was a dumb move to give up a late 1st that could be used to fill out the roster esp. knowing that the Pistons flipped it to Cleveland for 4 2nds. At the least you could've moved down into the high 2nd round and obtain some extra players to fill out the roster. Snell was bad, but at least you could've used his salary for future trades. When they stretched Leuer, it was dumb and it became clear they pulled a Sarver.
-Extending Bledsoe before the playoffs was horrible and then he ended up being a liability offensively with Giannis on the floor. Any other half-competent front office would've waited and see how he did before giving him his money.
-The Brogdon debacle. I understand that the reason he slid in the draft was because of his foot injuries that'd be a concern down the line. The dumbest part of the deal was that they chose not to get a 10M TPE which would've been extremely beneficial for adding salary to move later on should a deal come up. This would've helped in the Bogdanovic deal or any deal.
-The playoff meltdown with coach Bud refusing to adapt this year showed he had learned nothing from the Raptors series. I hope for Bucks fans he's learned something and will play Giannis more minutes, but Giannis needs to develop a proper mid-range shot and improve his FT% in order for any of this to work. I know he grew a couple of inches his 1st couple of years, but his shot looked really awful.
-The leaker. Somebody in the Bucks FO had to have leaked it out. My money says it's Marc's kid who's nothing more than a spineless toad and a hack combined in one. You think that they'd be smarter and stay quiet about this in light of the memo the NBA gave out to all 30 teams.
-The Jrue deal. They had to make this deal. They couldn't run it back with the same roster after last year and NOLA knew the spot MIL was in. Bledsoe's deal was another factor in why the Bucks had to give up 2 1st and 2 swaps unprotected along with Hill. At least if he stays healthy, all should go well. It would've been interesting to see if they could've nabbed Oladipo but his price was probably too much and the Bucks didn't have salary to match in the end. If anything, they should have sent D.J. Wilson and Ersan's deal as well for J.J. Redick in the Jrue deal. J.J. maybe old, but that dude is one of the best 3PT shooters in the game and he's expiring.

It sucks that they couldn't get Bogdan, but maybe DD develops more hopefully. Selfishly, I want him to come to Toronto as a Raps fan, but I hope he stays in Milwaukee b/c it's irritable when you have stars leaving smaller markets. Sadly in this case, you have management that from top to bottom have found new ways of snatching defeat from the jaws of victory not to mention even though they said they'd go into the luxury tax for Giannis after last year's gaffe, something tells me they'll go full Sarver/Tillman. If Jrue and Giannis leaves, man this upcoming decade will be a lost decade.

I dunno why, but when I think of Marc Lasry's kid, this comes to mind:

[JayMKE]

How can we sabotage Pat Riley and the Heat?

[ShootingtheJ]

I wish billionaires bought the Brewers, the Bucks owners are much more willing to spend big on payroll to win a championship, while the Brewers won't be spending much and may even be reducing their payroll for next season.

The Brewers owner Mark Attanasio should change his name to Mark Scrooge, it has been quite depressing being a Brewers fan.

Milwaukee's payroll regularly outranks their market size but they are handicapped by being the smallest market in a league where there is no salary cap. It doesn't matter who the owner is, they will never be able to compete with the Yankees or Dodgers in payroll.

Don't make excuses for him. Demographically, it's a top 15 market. It doesn't matter how many people live in your region, it's how many people in your region have money to spend on your product. Its the exact reason he bought the team.

[Coach Carter]

Lol what a Dibber Dobber Riley is. Someone should tweet out "Pat Riley is a Dibber Dobber and everyone knows Dibber Dobbers wear nappies."

[paulpressey25]

I seriously come here just for the PP stalking/detective work.

If you want to absolve the Lasry’s and Horst of screwing this up, it becomes essentially impossible based on this paragraph from the article:

“All players included within the trade framework were notified, sources said. Over the next two days, one Bucks player and his girlfriend were already searching for new homes in Northern California. A real-estate agent even visited one of the properties and sent pictures of the interior”

There is a fine line between being transparent with your players (in an effort to be a player/agent friendly club) and completely botching the secrecy of a deal that needed to be kept secret. As Tim MacMahon said, the Bucks elected to color outside the free agents lines with spray paint versus a crayon.