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Coronavirus/COVID-19, Thread 2

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Re: Coronavirus/COVID-19, Thread 2 

Post#1301 » by ddb » Wed Nov 25, 2020 8:15 pm

leper-con wrote:DDB, I don’t want to talk about Trump. He already gets too much air time.
I want to talk about politicising a virus, masks and the best health care practices.
Conspiracy theories and wormholes. I was only pointing out that people seek and see conspiracy where they choose to see it. There are much bigger threats out there, right in front of people but they choose to ignore it because someone told them that wearing a piece of cloth on there face will help them but they find in cumbersome or political. Masks are effective, sanitizing your hands is effective, social distancing is effective. And its temporary until we get the virus under control, its thinned out the heard enough that the rest of us don’t need to worry, God forbid t hits someone we, you or anyone close to us. The problem is the “non believers” are causing the virus to spread, so unless there is a unformed policy, it will be ineffective.
In some ways you are right people aren’t using the right masks, wearing them correctly and touching there faces and contaminating them. But they have proven effective, as has social distancing but this can be solved by a national “mask education” strategy. I could go on but I really hate these type of debates/arguments. I am by nature a live and let live person, but common sense needs to win the day at times. I trust the science which is behind the CDC practices.

We also need to remember that we are also trying to slow the number of infections at one time, as we have limited hospital ICU beds for treatment.


We are both right to a certain extent. I unlike many others am open to good quality dialogue from all sides which is where my opinions ultimately come from. I blend. I am very firm on staying open. Lockdowns to me are completely unnecessary and the issues that result from lockdowns far exceed those of remaining open. So the long and short of everything I say always comes back to two things. Lockdowns and vaccinations. We live in America. Nobody should be able to force us into losing our businesses via lockdowns Has it been taken into account that perhaps people have dumped their entire life into their business and would rather take a chance on 99.9% chance of surviving VS losing their business, house, their sanity, etc?
Same goes for vaccinations. Every family should have the right to participate in vaccines. The hoopla about those who do not take vaccines are putting others at risk is not real. So this vaccine coming up should not be something we are forced to take.

Those are my two big things. And again, if someone wants to wear a mask. Good for you. I don’t care. Just don’t make me wear one. Doesn’t make me less kind despite what the media will tell you. If someone is so afraid of covid they shouldn’t be out.
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Re: Coronavirus/COVID-19, Thread 2 

Post#1302 » by canman1971 » Wed Nov 25, 2020 8:17 pm

ddb wrote:
canman1971 wrote:
leper-con wrote:

Social distancing, sanitizing, mask wearing will do that.


That is what my point was. Not saying you thought otherwise. I like to be sarcastic to make a point.


The same people saying flu is down because of masks are the ones complaining that covid is up because of a lack of masks. Hahahaha.

Oh, I know. One of my best friends tried to use it as a defense, yet contradicted himself. Go figure.
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Re: Coronavirus/COVID-19, Thread 2 

Post#1303 » by GreenFor3 » Wed Nov 25, 2020 8:18 pm

ddb wrote:
canman1971 wrote:
leper-con wrote:

Social distancing, sanitizing, mask wearing will do that.


That is what my point was. Not saying you thought otherwise. I like to be sarcastic to make a point.


The same people saying flu is down because of masks are the ones complaining that covid is up because of a lack of masks. Hahahaha.

Usually nobody wears a mask or social distances so that's your baseline for flu. Now that a significant chunk of the US population is wearing masks and social distancing (and getting their flu shot) flu is down versus normally. I'm sure there are still some flu deaths attributed to covid, but testing has gotten to the point where I'd imagine anyone dying from it would've been tested. It's not like early on where we couldn't afford to waste the tests.
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Re: Coronavirus/COVID-19, Thread 2 

Post#1304 » by GreenFor3 » Wed Nov 25, 2020 8:21 pm

ddb wrote:
leper-con wrote:DDB, I don’t want to talk about Trump. He already gets too much air time.
I want to talk about politicising a virus, masks and the best health care practices.
Conspiracy theories and wormholes. I was only pointing out that people seek and see conspiracy where they choose to see it. There are much bigger threats out there, right in front of people but they choose to ignore it because someone told them that wearing a piece of cloth on there face will help them but they find in cumbersome or political. Masks are effective, sanitizing your hands is effective, social distancing is effective. And its temporary until we get the virus under control, its thinned out the heard enough that the rest of us don’t need to worry, God forbid t hits someone we, you or anyone close to us. The problem is the “non believers” are causing the virus to spread, so unless there is a unformed policy, it will be ineffective.
In some ways you are right people aren’t using the right masks, wearing them correctly and touching there faces and contaminating them. But they have proven effective, as has social distancing but this can be solved by a national “mask education” strategy. I could go on but I really hate these type of debates/arguments. I am by nature a live and let live person, but common sense needs to win the day at times. I trust the science which is behind the CDC practices.

We also need to remember that we are also trying to slow the number of infections at one time, as we have limited hospital ICU beds for treatment.


We are both right to a certain extent. I unlike many others am open to good quality dialogue from all sides which is where my opinions ultimately come from. I blend. I am very firm on staying open. Lockdowns to me are completely unnecessary and the issues that result from lockdowns far exceed those of remaining open. So the long and short of everything I say always comes back to two things. Lockdowns and vaccinations. We live in America. Nobody should be able to force us into losing our businesses via lockdowns Has it been taken into account that perhaps people have dumped their entire life into their business and would rather take a chance on 99.9% chance of surviving VS losing their business, house, their sanity, etc?
Same goes for vaccinations. Every family should have the right to participate in vaccines. The hoopla about those who do not take vaccines are putting others at risk is not real. So this vaccine coming up should not be something we are forced to take.

Those are my two big things. And again, if someone wants to wear a mask. Good for you. I don’t care. Just don’t make me wear one. Doesn’t make me less kind despite what the media will tell you. If someone is so afraid of covid they shouldn’t be out.

I am curious what makes you believe this? Is there any proof that you would accept to convince you otherwise?
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Re: Coronavirus/COVID-19, Thread 2 

Post#1305 » by ddb » Wed Nov 25, 2020 8:23 pm

GreenFor3 wrote:
ddb wrote:
canman1971 wrote:
That is what my point was. Not saying you thought otherwise. I like to be sarcastic to make a point.


The same people saying flu is down because of masks are the ones complaining that covid is up because of a lack of masks. Hahahaha.

Usually nobody wears a mask or social distances so that's your baseline for flu. Now that a significant chunk of the US population is wearing masks and social distancing (and getting their flu shot) flu is down versus normally. I'm sure there are still some flu deaths attributed to covid, but testing has gotten to the point where I'd imagine anyone dying from it would've been tested. It's not like early on where we couldn't afford to waste the tests.


Buddy the flu is so down because everything gets tossed into the covid category. You cannot be that naive. Which means that millions and millions of flu cases are covid now, plus actual covid, plus tuberculosis, which by the way killed 1.5 million people worldwide in 2018.

Let’s not go into the fact that hospitals get compensated on covid cases. Even more for deaths. The same hospitals that are struggling mightily this year because the number of general surgeries and routine checkups is way, way down because many people don’t want to go within 10,000 yards of a medical facility these days.

I’m not trying to convince anyone one way or another. It’s just so clear for anyone to see once you start connecting the dots that are all right in front of our faces.
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Re: Coronavirus/COVID-19, Thread 2 

Post#1306 » by ParticleMan » Wed Nov 25, 2020 8:41 pm

ddb wrote:
GreenFor3 wrote:
ddb wrote:
The same people saying flu is down because of masks are the ones complaining that covid is up because of a lack of masks. Hahahaha.

Usually nobody wears a mask or social distances so that's your baseline for flu. Now that a significant chunk of the US population is wearing masks and social distancing (and getting their flu shot) flu is down versus normally. I'm sure there are still some flu deaths attributed to covid, but testing has gotten to the point where I'd imagine anyone dying from it would've been tested. It's not like early on where we couldn't afford to waste the tests.


Buddy the flu is so down because everything gets tossed into the covid category. You cannot be that naive. Which means that millions and millions of flu cases are covid now, plus actual covid, plus tuberculosis, which by the way killed 1.5 million people worldwide in 2018.

Let’s not go into the fact that hospitals get compensated on covid cases. Even more for deaths. The same hospitals that are struggling mightily this year because the number of general surgeries and routine checkups is way, way down because many people don’t want to go within 10,000 yards of a medical facility these days.

I’m not trying to convince anyone one way or another. It’s just so clear for anyone to see once you start connecting the dots that are all right in front of our faces.


wait, so hospitals are killing tens or hundreds of thousands of people just so that they can drum up some business? i'm not even sure what to say to that.

and as for being the flu, the excess deaths stats specifically argue against that possibility. i hope i don't have to explain this.

as for TB, up until this year, usually about 500 people a year died from tuberculosis in the US (since most people here get vaccinated, unlike many 3rd world countries where all the deaths occur). is there some reason why tuberculosis is suddenly killing tens or hundreds of thousands of people in the US in 2020?
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Re: Coronavirus/COVID-19, Thread 2 

Post#1307 » by CavemanDoctor » Wed Nov 25, 2020 8:54 pm

The mind just boggles at the conspiracy-theory peddling from otherwise intelligent people, and I don't just mean here on the forum. And I am not trying to minimize but, to be clear, softly-spoken conspiracy-theory peddling is still that, just thinly veiled.
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Re: Coronavirus/COVID-19, Thread 2 

Post#1308 » by djFan71 » Wed Nov 25, 2020 9:30 pm

ddb wrote:And again, if someone wants to wear a mask. Good for you. I don’t care. Just don’t make me wear one. Doesn’t make me less kind despite what the media will tell you. If someone is so afraid of covid they shouldn’t be out.

This part I don't get. The main point of masks is not to prevent the wearer from getting it. It's to prevent the wearer from spreading it to others. So, you not wearing one affects everyone else, regardless of whether you think it's just your personal choice or not. If you are asymptomatic and walking around without a mask you will infect more people than if you had one on. It's that simple.

You can argue that the masks aren't medical grade, whatever, but common sense tells you anything in front of your mouth/nose will stop your breath/coughs/sneezes from travelling as far as they would without it. And that reduces the risk of contact with other people. Even the lamest mask in the world will accomplish that to some degree.

If more people just wore them, you would get things under control faster and not have all the other issues you are worried about - lockdowns, etc.
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Re: Coronavirus/COVID-19, Thread 2 

Post#1309 » by CeltsfanSinceBirth » Wed Nov 25, 2020 9:38 pm

The meek shall inherit the earth.
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Re: Coronavirus/COVID-19, Thread 2 

Post#1310 » by SMTBSI » Wed Nov 25, 2020 9:41 pm

djFan71 wrote:
ddb wrote:And again, if someone wants to wear a mask. Good for you. I don’t care. Just don’t make me wear one. Doesn’t make me less kind despite what the media will tell you. If someone is so afraid of covid they shouldn’t be out.

This part I don't get. The main point of masks is not to prevent the wearer from getting it. It's to prevent the wearer from spreading it to others. So, you not wearing one affects everyone else, regardless of whether you think it's just your personal choice or not. If you are asymptomatic and walking around without a mask you will infect more people than if you had one on. It's that simple.

You can argue that the masks aren't medical grade, whatever, but common sense tells you anything in front of your mouth/nose will stop your breath/coughs/sneezes from travelling as far as they would without it. And that reduces the risk of contact with other people. Even the lamest mask in the world will accomplish that to some degree.

If more people just wore them, you would get things under control faster and not have all the other issues you are worried about - lockdowns, etc.

The bolded is the real kicker.

The folks railing against the lockdowns are the same ones ensuring the lockdowns are necessary. If everyone wore masks and practiced basic good practices, well, the problem wouldn't be solved overnight, but the magnitude and severity of the lockdowns could be lessened.

ddb, you are participating in the creation of the situation you are unhappy about.
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Re: Coronavirus/COVID-19, Thread 2 

Post#1311 » by Bad-Thoma » Wed Nov 25, 2020 9:48 pm

ddb wrote:
Those are my two big things. And again, if someone wants to wear a mask. Good for you. I don’t care. Just don’t make me wear one. Doesn’t make me less kind despite what the media will tell you. If someone is so afraid of covid they shouldn’t be out.


This literally makes you less kind. If most people are wearing a mask because they believe it helps protect others and reduce the overall transmission of the virus and your response is "if they are so afraid of covid they shouldn't be out" you're not kind, you're a selfish, arrogant ****. Arrogant because despite medical professionals pleading with people to wear masks as they run out of hospital beds you "know better" because of some crack pot conspiracy theory bull about hospitals inflating numbers.
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Re: Coronavirus/COVID-19, Thread 2 

Post#1312 » by SMTBSI » Wed Nov 25, 2020 9:54 pm

ddb wrote:If someone is so afraid of covid they shouldn’t be out.

Also, on this point, this is a very surface-level way of thinking about a pandemic.

I wear masks and social distance and wash my hands not because I'm "afraid" of Covid. I just had it. It was a mild flu for me. Milder than the two most recent flus I had before it.

I do those things because I'm relatively young and healthy and there was a good chance I could have been an asymptomatic carrier spreading it to others wherever I go. I'd rather not be the reason someone's grandma drowns in her own pulmonary edema.

The mathematics of pandemics can be very counter-intuitive. The less likely you are to be harmed by one, the more likely you are to contribute to its spread. Asymptomatic carriers are a huge problem.
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Re: Coronavirus/COVID-19, Thread 2 

Post#1313 » by greenroom31 » Wed Nov 25, 2020 9:56 pm

Bad-Thoma wrote:
ddb wrote:
Those are my two big things. And again, if someone wants to wear a mask. Good for you. I don’t care. Just don’t make me wear one. Doesn’t make me less kind despite what the media will tell you. If someone is so afraid of covid they shouldn’t be out.


This literally makes you less kind. If most people are wearing a mask because they believe it helps protect others and reduce the overall transmission of the virus and your response is "if they are so afraid of covid they shouldn't be out" you're not kind, you're a selfish, arrogant ****. Arrogant because despite medical professionals pleading with people to wear masks as they run out of hospital beds you "know better" because of some crack pot conspiracy theory bull about hospitals inflating numbers.


This is the classic negative rights vs. positive rights argument.

Does someone's POSITIVE rights (specifically: the right to choose whether or not to wear a mask) outweigh another person's NEGATIVE rights (specifically: the right to not have someone else increase their risk of getting COVID).

Take smoking cigarettes for example -- in basically all states we've decided that a person's right to smoke is outweighed by someone else's negative right to not be put at increased risk for cancer, and just generally having to deal with cigarette smoke being blown in their face. This is really not that complicated.

And as for the counterargument that some people don't wear their masks properly -- give me a break. Then I guess people shouldn't wear seatbelts either since some people put them on wrong?

Masks reduce risk, period, full stop. Respect other people's negative rights to not be put at risk by you over whatever positive right to choice you have rationalized for yourself in a vacuum as not impacting others.
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Re: Coronavirus/COVID-19, Thread 2 

Post#1314 » by canman1971 » Wed Nov 25, 2020 9:56 pm

ddb wrote:
GreenFor3 wrote:
ddb wrote:
The same people saying flu is down because of masks are the ones complaining that covid is up because of a lack of masks. Hahahaha.

Usually nobody wears a mask or social distances so that's your baseline for flu. Now that a significant chunk of the US population is wearing masks and social distancing (and getting their flu shot) flu is down versus normally. I'm sure there are still some flu deaths attributed to covid, but testing has gotten to the point where I'd imagine anyone dying from it would've been tested. It's not like early on where we couldn't afford to waste the tests.


Buddy the flu is so down because everything gets tossed into the covid category. You cannot be that naive. Which means that millions and millions of flu cases are covid now, plus actual covid, plus tuberculosis, which by the way killed 1.5 million people worldwide in 2018.

Let’s not go into the fact that hospitals get compensated on covid cases. Even more for deaths. The same hospitals that are struggling mightily this year because the number of general surgeries and routine checkups is way, way down because many people don’t want to go within 10,000 yards of a medical facility these days.

I’m not trying to convince anyone one way or another. It’s just so clear for anyone to see once you start connecting the dots that are all right in front of our faces.

I'm pretty solid on the fact that what you said is not true regarding the flu. Provide data if I am incorrect. And on a lighter note, referring to someone as "buddy" is very condescending.
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Re: Coronavirus/COVID-19, Thread 2 

Post#1315 » by DarkAzcura » Wed Nov 25, 2020 9:57 pm

Not wearing a mask is straight up selfish and arrogant. Simple as that. Get over yourself if you have that mindset.
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Re: Coronavirus/COVID-19, Thread 2 

Post#1316 » by Disinformation » Wed Nov 25, 2020 10:01 pm

ddb wrote:
canman1971 wrote:
leper-con wrote:

Social distancing, sanitizing, mask wearing will do that.


That is what my point was. Not saying you thought otherwise. I like to be sarcastic to make a point.


The same people saying flu is down because of masks are the ones complaining that covid is up because of a lack of masks. Hahahaha.



Do you honestly not see how those two statements can both be true?

The first statement is a comparison between normal (ie no masks) vs. now (some masks). The second is a comparison between now (some masks) and what should be happening (more masks).

I really didn't want to get into it but you are spreading blatant misinformation about masks mixed. Go nuts talking about your opinions but **** off with the BS.
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Re: Coronavirus/COVID-19, Thread 2 

Post#1317 » by canman1971 » Wed Nov 25, 2020 10:02 pm

People need to think about the overall community rather than just themselves. I hate wearing a mask, but you know what? I think people I don't know deserve better just in case I had it. It's that simple.
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Re: Coronavirus/COVID-19, Thread 2 

Post#1318 » by SMTBSI » Wed Nov 25, 2020 10:06 pm

Disinformation wrote:
ddb wrote:The same people saying flu is down because of masks are the ones complaining that covid is up because of a lack of masks. Hahahaha.

Do you honestly not see how those two statements can both be true?

The first statement is a comparison between normal (ie no masks) vs. now (some masks). The second is a comparison between now (some masks) and what should be happening (more masks).

ddb, you're a bright guy, but you seem to have internalized some misinformation here.

Think about what ... well, Disinformation just said. The two statements:

- flu is down because of partial compliance mask wearing
- covid is higher than it could be because of only partial compliance mask wearing

Are in no way logically inconsistent whatsoever. In fact, any other truth values for those two statements other than True and True would be kind of weird.
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Re: Coronavirus/COVID-19, Thread 2 

Post#1319 » by SichtingLives » Wed Nov 25, 2020 10:25 pm

ddb wrote:
SichtingLives wrote:It's kind of funny that there is no discernible way to tell the difference between a trolling 10 year old from an adult Trumpuppet on a forum.


you clearly being the trolling 10 year old based on this comment.


edit* Sorry, I missed the rest of your copy/pasted nutter script and thank god for that. If you feel like you're being talked down to, maybe consider why your stance continues to put you in such an easily mocked and foolish position.
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Re: Coronavirus/COVID-19, Thread 2 

Post#1320 » by SichtingLives » Wed Nov 25, 2020 11:02 pm

canman1971 wrote:People need to think about the overall community rather than just themselves. I hate wearing a mask, but you know what? I think people I don't know deserve better just in case I had it. It's that simple.


And yet this is impossible as a whole. Our country are world leaders in rejecting accountability through majority aspects of personal, social and business engagement and directly tied to this anti-value, we have fostered a national pastime, a preferred hobby of both bitching and blaming. To a person, no one accepts responsibility for any of this and furthermore, whoever may actually be responsible is busy self-righteously blaming any and everyone else (or to be honest, outright denying it which also work perfectly with the refusal of accountability). And here we have a virus that doesn't not give one iota of a $hit about a single persons opinion about anything, much less all of ours...if it could, it would be laughing at what an easy target it has to work with.

This is why I shake my head at the notion of our species as an ever-advancing, infallible exceptionalist gift to the universe, which at least used to be held as a majority belief not very long ago and still is amongst many. Certainly the best and the brightest among us fit the bill and thank god for those people. But the majority of the world are currently locked into barely-literate debates (utterances) on a cesspool platform of anti-intellectual nirvana. And this is currently how most people gather, garner and disseminate information right now. It's a pretty bleak point in time to get caught with our pants down.

Long story short, we've been developing and fortifying some very unsavory cultural values for a long time now that leave us generally incapable of doing whats best for the greater good, pulling together in the face of harm or any common sense initiative that calls for sacrifice, restraint or empathy. This is happening in the golden age of ego. It's a perfect storm for non-compliance. We are actually very lucky this virus isn't even more dangerous than it is but it seems inevitable that another one will come along that is much worse. You can only hope people have learned their lesson by then. This just may be a primer for a much bigger challenge to humanity.
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