WHY trade the Daniel Oturu pick at 33 away for nothing???

[KnicksGadfly]

life of a knicks fan

keep the pick youre an idiot

trade the pick, youre an idiot

there is no right answer

Knicks gonna Knick g bless

Yah no. We overrate our 2nd rounders like mad. There is a middle ground in which we pick up someone like Woodard and Knicks fans start praising Rose like crazy. You only need to look around the forum and see the praise for the Memphis draft to see that this is true.

But hey if your simple analogy works for you and you think it makes you sound smart, then go for it

Same guys who say it’s a .001 chance (a gross exaggeration considering Mitch is on the roster) are the same guys who praise the Knicks for trading for a .001 chance in 2023?

[Moose]

The Knicks did a math equation. They value the 2023 draft a certain way assuming the high school stuff.

That answer to the equation told them that even a #40 pick in 2023 is more valuable than what they saw in 2020 at #33.

You can agree or not with the conclusion, but that's my guess as to what happened here.

I see the logic, but its flawed. You dont trade a high 2nd round pick which is basically a first rounder for a future mid/late 2nd rounder.

in 3 years we could have developed a good player...Instead we are waiting 6-7 years for one to develop? Idk..No truth that HS players have more upside. So many HS busts in history. Something just doesnt sit right with me paying an 18 year old kid millions of dollars soly on how he played basketball against highschool kids.

Also allows them to save some cap space, perhaps?

I don't disagree in that maybe they should have gotten more, but I'm just trying to see from their perspective and they could be trying to do things in a more analytical way.

[Ray Williams]

We have alot of players to evaluate this year

Frank
Dsj
Iggy
Wooten
Knox
Toppin
Quickley
Mitch

We kind of have our hands full. In 3 years who knows that pick can come in handy

Thats already been done

Frank -Trash can't shot can't create
Dsj -Trash
Iggy to small - trash
Wooten -- probably trash
Knox Definitely Trash Slower than a tree no iq
Toppin -good but needs help with defense
Quickley To small
Mitch --- Im starting to dislike him. He can't shoot to save his life or has no confidence shooting which hurts us so badly on the offense end.

This team right now is the worst roster in the league. Name a worse team.


Dont forget Dolan Super trash scumbag

Would your profession be garbage man? You don’t know what this team is going to be until they play under this new coach. Is this the new thing now, post ridiculous **** to get a reaction?

[FreeSpiritNY]

We have alot of players to evaluate this year

Frank
Dsj
Iggy
Wooten
Knox
Toppin
Quickley
Mitch

We kind of have our hands full. In 3 years who knows that pick can come in handy

Thats already been done

Frank -Trash can't shot can't create
Dsj -Trash
Iggy to small - trash
Wooten -- probably trash
Knox Definitely Trash Slower than a tree no iq
Toppin -good but needs help with defense
Quickley To small
Mitch --- Im starting to dislike him. He can't shoot to save his life or has no confidence shooting which hurts us so badly on the offense end.

This team right now is the worst roster in the league. Name a worse team.


Dont forget Dolan Super trash scumbag

Would your profession be garbage man? You don’t know what this team is going to be until they play under this new coach. Is this the new thing now, post ridiculous **** to get a reaction?

So the tell me im wrong about that roster.

Promisinf player RJ, Mitch & Toppin. They all have major flaws in there game. I will say I am now happy we didn't splurge in free agency. I really wanted ingram though .

[robillionaire]

Thats already been done

Frank -Trash can't shot can't create
Dsj -Trash
Iggy to small - trash
Wooten -- probably trash
Knox Definitely Trash Slower than a tree no iq
Toppin -good but needs help with defense
Quickley To small
Mitch --- Im starting to dislike him. He can't shoot to save his life or has no confidence shooting which hurts us so badly on the offense end.

This team right now is the worst roster in the league. Name a worse team.


Dont forget Dolan Super trash scumbag

Would your profession be garbage man? You don’t know what this team is going to be until they play under this new coach. Is this the new thing now, post ridiculous **** to get a reaction?

So the tell me im wrong about that roster.

Promisinf player RJ, Mitch & Toppin. They all have major flaws in there game. I will say I am now happy we didn't splurge in free agency. I really wanted ingram though .

I find it funny RJ isn't on this list of players to evaluate as if he's above it somehow, he definitely isn't. also wooten is gone we dumped him. but I agree with you this is the worst team in the NBA easily and that's probably good news for next year's draft when we have at least 2 more 1sts coming in assuming they don't make a stupid trade

[HarthorneWingo]

people were having a meltdown when they announced the pick because "we drafted another big" and now another one because we didn't keep said big. yall are funny

That's true but it still doesn't explain the maneuvering the Knicks did just to give the pick away. We won't know what the logic is behind this offseason until the front office is done making moves. We still have a bunch of cap space we're required to use to get to the floor and hopefully we're still trying to trade Randle. They have to working on something.

[justin12140]

people were having a meltdown when they announced the pick because "we drafted another big" and now another one because we didn't keep said big. yall are funny

That's true but it still doesn't explain the maneuvering the Knicks did just to give the pick away. We won't know what the logic is behind this offseason until the front office is done making moves. We still have a bunch of cap space we're required to use to get to the floor and hopefully we're still trying to trade Randle. They have to working on something.

The logic is simple. We had 7 guys on rookie scale contracts (9 after Spellman /evans trade), and the FO didn’t see anyone else on the board worth adding to the roster. Berman has already said that we were targeting the guy that got picked at 32.

So what did they do? They traded the pick for a future pick that’s probably going to be in the same range. Now instead of picking someone they don’t like, they can draft someone else they do like in a few years or include the pick in a trade (picks like these are always more valuable before it becomes a tangible player)

[robillionaire]

people were having a meltdown when they announced the pick because "we drafted another big" and now another one because we didn't keep said big. yall are funny

That's true but it still doesn't explain the maneuvering the Knicks did just to give the pick away. We won't know what the logic is behind this offseason until the front office is done making moves. We still have a bunch of cap space we're required to use to get to the floor and hopefully we're still trying to trade Randle. They have to working on something.

I agree, I think they should have used the pick. Not necessarily for Oturu though. Probably for a guard who can shoot.

I think they had a framework for a westbrook trade in place and were trying to go for a win now roster but since they failed to get anybody in free agency they decided to pivot to a tank

I mean how else can you explain it, because these guys knew damn well that this team didn't have a point guard, they don't even try to draft one, and their answer is another year of elfrid payton and austin rivers. It's not because they believe in frank and dsj either.

so yeah, that's my hypothesis, they didn't use the pick because they didn't want to draft yet another project to develop because they thought they'd be trying to make the playoffs. Now that they have the worst roster in the NBA clearly they should have rolled the dice on another project

[finestrg]

The Knicks did a math equation. They value the 2023 draft a certain way assuming the high school stuff.

That answer to the equation told them that even a #40 pick in 2023 is more valuable than what they saw in 2020 at #33.

You can agree or not with the conclusion, but that's my guess as to what happened here.

Sorry for bumping, what's done is done, I get it, but I just wanted to address the high school angle in this 2023 draft for a sec.

Tell me what high school gem is falling to us in 2023 in the 2nd round with this pick we got for Oturu? What agent or whatever representation, family/friends etc. a high school prospect might have in his corner come the 2023 draft is gonna tell this prospect to stay in the draft in the 2nd round? No HS kids with any kind of upside or real promise get picked in the 2nd round -- they may test the waters early on in the draft process and if there's no interest and they're not projected to go high enough, they'll just go to college for a year, play abroad for a year, whatever, to get their value up to where they could at least crack the 1st round and get some real money the following year.

You wanna tell me that this draft is supposed to be loaded and the HS kids with promise that get picked in the top of the 1st round may push talented older players into the 2nd round, ok maybe I buy that possibility, but please don't think for a second that we're getting some HS stud with this 2nd round pick. Not happening. I mean I really hope the Knicks don't believe that -- that's delusional.

Even after trying to digest this trade for a few days, I still can't swallow it. This dude Oturu is a talented young big that checks off a lot of boxes. We definitely could've used him.

[Moose]

The Knicks did a math equation. They value the 2023 draft a certain way assuming the high school stuff.

That answer to the equation told them that even a #40 pick in 2023 is more valuable than what they saw in 2020 at #33.

You can agree or not with the conclusion, but that's my guess as to what happened here.

Sorry for bumping, what's done is done, I get it, but I just wanted to address the high school angle in this 2023 draft for a sec.

Tell me what high school gem is falling to us in 2023 in the 2nd round with this pick we got for Oturu? What agent or whatever representation, family/friends etc. a high school prospect might have in his corner come the 2023 draft is gonna tell this prospect to stay in the draft in the 2nd round? No HS kids with any kind of upside or real promise get picked in the 2nd round -- they may test the waters early on in the draft process and if there's no interest and they're not projected to go high enough, they'll just go to college for a year, play abroad for a year, whatever, to get their value up to where they could at least crack the 1st round and get some real money the following year.

You wanna tell me that this draft is supposed to be loaded and the HS kids with promise that get picked in the top of the 1st round may push talented older players into the 2nd round, ok maybe I buy that possibility, but please don't think for a second that we're getting some HS stud with this 2nd round pick. Not happening. I mean I really hope the Knicks don't believe that -- that's delusional.

Even after trying to digest this trade for a few days, I still can't swallow it. This dude Oturu is a talented young big that checks off a lot of boxes. We definitely could've used him.

I don't have the answers to your questions and I'm not even saying it's the right move ...I was simply offering a perspective that maybe the front office had when making this trade.

I suppose they figured it would preserve some cap space as well. So maybe they didn't love this player or anyone else at #33 when compared to saving cap space and pushing an asset to a later date that can be used in a trade while also saving a roster spot/cap space for the next couple of seasons.

I do find it interesting that they potentially have analytics people telling them that this trade made sense for XYZ reasons.

Or maybe the Knicks just Knick'd and made this trade without thinking it through.

Perhaps they could have drafted an overseas player who is a year or two away from coming over if that was the case (if a player like that was available in their eyes).

I agree that it would have made sense to get something extra to go along with a 2023 pick. I also find it a little disappointing, but again, was just offering a potential perspective as to what happened here.

[Ray Williams]

The Knicks did a math equation. They value the 2023 draft a certain way assuming the high school stuff.

That answer to the equation told them that even a #40 pick in 2023 is more valuable than what they saw in 2020 at #33.

You can agree or not with the conclusion, but that's my guess as to what happened here.

Sorry for bumping, what's done is done, I get it, but I just wanted to address the high school angle in this 2023 draft for a sec.

Tell me what high school gem is falling to us in 2023 in the 2nd round with this pick we got for Oturu? What agent or whatever representation, family/friends etc. a high school prospect might have in his corner come the 2023 draft is gonna tell this prospect to stay in the draft in the 2nd round? No HS kids with any kind of upside or real promise get picked in the 2nd round -- they may test the waters early on in the draft process and if there's no interest and they're not projected to go high enough, they'll just go to college for a year, play abroad for a year, whatever, to get their value up to where they could at least crack the 1st round and get some real money the following year.

You wanna tell me that this draft is supposed to be loaded and the HS kids with promise that get picked in the top of the 1st round may push talented older players into the 2nd round, ok maybe I buy that possibility, but please don't think for a second that we're getting some HS stud with this 2nd round pick. Not happening. I mean I really hope the Knicks don't believe that -- that's delusional.

Even after trying to digest this trade for a few days, I still can't swallow it. This dude Oturu is a talented young big that checks off a lot of boxes. We definitely could've used him.

Maybe the second round picks will be used to move the a higher pick up a few spots to get a player we’re targeting. Like they could have packaged the one they traded away and a future second to move up a few spots and draft Vernon Carey Jr.

[Knicksfan20]

The Knicks did a math equation. They value the 2023 draft a certain way assuming the high school stuff.

That answer to the equation told them that even a #40 pick in 2023 is more valuable than what they saw in 2020 at #33.

You can agree or not with the conclusion, but that's my guess as to what happened here.

I see the logic, but its flawed. You dont trade a high 2nd round pick which is basically a first rounder for a future mid/late 2nd rounder.

in 3 years we could have developed a good player...Instead we are waiting 6-7 years for one to develop? Idk..No truth that HS players have more upside. So many HS busts in history. Something just doesnt sit right with me paying an 18 year old kid millions of dollars soly on how he played basketball against highschool kids.

Also allows them to save some cap space, perhaps?

I don't disagree in that maybe they should have gotten more, but I'm just trying to see from their perspective and they could be trying to do things in a more analytical way.

I guess it all depends what the FO plan is. If our plan is to build through the draft, then we should have utilized our draft picks. If we are trying to save cap space or maybe the FO didnt think anybody was worth drafting, then i can see why trade it.


I personally would have liked Jordan Nwora at our pick. Play all young guys this year and evaluate talent. If Knox and Frank dont improve then axe them for future 2nds if we can if not then just cut ties. Continue to play young guys. Evaluate if Obi and Barrett suck or not, then go from there.

I really hate this intertwining of veterans and rookies that we have been doing the past few years. Only time that works is when you already have a winning culture. Otherwise you only have 3-4 years to develop a rookie player and they dont develop well riding the pine. I blame the organizations nowadays more then the players if the players arnt reaching their potential.

[finestrg]

The Knicks did a math equation. They value the 2023 draft a certain way assuming the high school stuff.

That answer to the equation told them that even a #40 pick in 2023 is more valuable than what they saw in 2020 at #33.

You can agree or not with the conclusion, but that's my guess as to what happened here.

Sorry for bumping, what's done is done, I get it, but I just wanted to address the high school angle in this 2023 draft for a sec.

Tell me what high school gem is falling to us in 2023 in the 2nd round with this pick we got for Oturu? What agent or whatever representation, family/friends etc. a high school prospect might have in his corner come the 2023 draft is gonna tell this prospect to stay in the draft in the 2nd round? No HS kids with any kind of upside or real promise get picked in the 2nd round -- they may test the waters early on in the draft process and if there's no interest and they're not projected to go high enough, they'll just go to college for a year, play abroad for a year, whatever, to get their value up to where they could at least crack the 1st round and get some real money the following year.

You wanna tell me that this draft is supposed to be loaded and the HS kids with promise that get picked in the top of the 1st round may push talented older players into the 2nd round, ok maybe I buy that possibility, but please don't think for a second that we're getting some HS stud with this 2nd round pick. Not happening. I mean I really hope the Knicks don't believe that -- that's delusional.

Even after trying to digest this trade for a few days, I still can't swallow it. This dude Oturu is a talented young big that checks off a lot of boxes. We definitely could've used him.

I don't have the answers to your questions and I'm not even saying it's the right move ...I was simply offering a perspective that maybe the front office had when making this trade.

I suppose they figured it would preserve some cap space as well. So maybe they didn't love this player or anyone else at #33 when compared to saving cap space and pushing an asset to a later date that can be used in a trade while also saving a roster spot/cap space for the next couple of seasons.

I do find it interesting that they potentially have analytics people telling them that this trade made sense for XYZ reasons.

Or maybe the Knicks just Knick'd and made this trade without thinking it through.

Perhaps they could have drafted an overseas player who is a year or two away from coming over if that was the case (if a player like that was available in their eyes).

I agree that it would have made sense to get something extra to go along with a 2023 pick. I also find it a little disappointing, but again, was just offering a potential perspective as to what happened here.

Moose -- sorry, I wasn't going after you specifically, just selected a post that mentioned the high school angle to offer up a counterpoint. You're not the only one who has brought up this point -- I've heard it being discussed a lot, I just have a problem with it and find holes in the logic, so nothing personal. And I know you're just throwing ideas out there as to why we traded the pick.

From what I could gather, they liked Vernon Carey and wanted him at 33. Carey or bust.. That was a mistake imho. Ok, no Carey, but Oturu was there, an even better big man prospect imo. Mistake by them, Leon and co.. All I'm saying. Oturu might be a little raw still, but look at how many boxes he checks -- legit 6'10" 240 and LONG, can play BOTH 4 and 5, can back up Robinson or Toppin OR play alongside either guy. He can score (over 20 a game in a conference with so many good big men), rebound (one of the better rebounders in the draft at over 11 per), defend the rim (2.5 blocks per), AND he's shown that he can shoot the ball! That wasn't worth it for them at 33?? I don't even buy the "preserve cap space" angle either. This would've been an ultra salary-controlled big on a cheap, 2nd round contract. Negligible cap impact..The first time this dude puts up a 20/10 game for the Clippers I'm gonna be LIVID!! Sorry just how I see it fellas...

Anyway, peace to all, hope everyone here has a nice Thanksgiving! Be safe.

[finestrg]

I see the logic, but its flawed. You dont trade a high 2nd round pick which is basically a first rounder for a future mid/late 2nd rounder.

in 3 years we could have developed a good player...Instead we are waiting 6-7 years for one to develop? Idk..No truth that HS players have more upside. So many HS busts in history. Something just doesnt sit right with me paying an 18 year old kid millions of dollars soly on how he played basketball against highschool kids.

Also allows them to save some cap space, perhaps?

I don't disagree in that maybe they should have gotten more, but I'm just trying to see from their perspective and they could be trying to do things in a more analytical way.

I guess it all depends what the FO plan is. If our plan is to build through the draft, then we should have utilized our draft picks. If we are trying to save cap space or maybe the FO didnt think anybody was worth drafting, then i can see why trade it.


I personally would have liked Jordan Nwora at our pick. Play all young guys this year and evaluate talent. If Knox and Frank dont improve then axe them for future 2nds if we can if not then just cut ties. Continue to play young guys. Evaluate if Obi and Barrett suck or not, then go from there.

I really hate this intertwining of veterans and rookies that we have been doing the past few years. Only time that works is when you already have a winning culture. Otherwise you only have 3-4 years to develop a rookie player and they dont develop well riding the pine. I blame the organizations nowadays more then the players if the players arnt reaching their potential.

Well said, agree with what the approach should be. I bumped DrCoach's "no more quick fixes, build through the draft" thread not too long ago because I believe in it. I mean when you're this bad, forget building some team that's just good enough to fill the seats. Build it up the right way from the ground up and know that you'll have to take some lumps along the way, but my God, eventually build somethig sustainable, build a winner!!! Don't just throw money at the wrong guys that won't bring you a chip. Out of any sport out there, this doesn't work in the NBA. You make bad decisions with your money, it'll set the process back years! To be fair, it looks like we've learned from this and the past couple of years we've been getting vets on short term deals and go for the quick reset when we don't hit the homerun in the draft or free agency... Then it's reset, rinse and repeat. I mean I don't wanna see this every year either though man..Ok, good, I get that, but there needs to be more going on.. Real fans get that, they do! Rome wasn't built in a day and it's true! Stevie Wonder could've seen that Daniel Oturu could've been part of that rebuild and that process. SHOULD'VE BEEN...

[br7knicks]

the more i think about it the less i understand the trade. he would've been a solid backup to mitch.

also not sure why winston wasn't selected with that pick. knicks needed a PG, and he would've helped.


my only guess is that the picks will then be used to attach to future picks to move up, in future drafts.

[Knicksfan20]

The problem with having a guy like Leon Rose in charge, is he’s always going to do what’s in his and his clients best interests and not the team.

[Hes_On_Fire]

the more i think about it the less i understand the trade. he would've been a solid backup to mitch.

also not sure why winston wasn't selected with that pick. knicks needed a PG, and he would've helped.


my only guess is that the picks will then be used to attach to future picks to move up, in future drafts.

Having the 33rd pick in the 2nd round is about a strong as a 2nd round pick you can have. Yo trade it away did a future 2nd which will likely be a worse pick is a terrible trade and did not maximize our assets.

[DrCoach]

Also allows them to save some cap space, perhaps?

I don't disagree in that maybe they should have gotten more, but I'm just trying to see from their perspective and they could be trying to do things in a more analytical way.

I guess it all depends what the FO plan is. If our plan is to build through the draft, then we should have utilized our draft picks. If we are trying to save cap space or maybe the FO didnt think anybody was worth drafting, then i can see why trade it.


I personally would have liked Jordan Nwora at our pick. Play all young guys this year and evaluate talent. If Knox and Frank dont improve then axe them for future 2nds if we can if not then just cut ties. Continue to play young guys. Evaluate if Obi and Barrett suck or not, then go from there.

I really hate this intertwining of veterans and rookies that we have been doing the past few years. Only time that works is when you already have a winning culture. Otherwise you only have 3-4 years to develop a rookie player and they dont develop well riding the pine. I blame the organizations nowadays more then the players if the players arnt reaching their potential.

Well said, agree with what the approach should be. I bumped DrCoach's "no more quick fixes, build through the draft" thread not too long ago because I believe in it. I mean when you're this bad, forget building some team that's just good enough to fill the seats. Build it up the right way from the ground up and know that you'll have to take some lumps along the way, but my God, eventually build somethig sustainable, build a winner!!! Don't just throw money at the wrong guys that won't bring you a chip. Out of any sport out there, this doesn't work in the NBA. You make bad decisions with your money, it'll set the process back years! To be fair, it looks like we've learned from this and the past couple of years we've been getting vets on short term deals and go for the quick reset when we don't hit the homerun in the draft or free agency... Then it's reset, rinse and repeat. I mean I don't wanna see this every year either though man..Ok, good, I get that, but there needs to be more going on.. Real fans get that, they do! Rome wasn't built in a day and it's true! Stevie Wonder could've seen that Daniel Oturu could've been part of that rebuild and that process. SHOULD'VE BEEN...

I would have kept the pick, signed 22yr Giles and Josh Davis

And I hope we keep Spellman and Evans

Lets the young guys play, rinse repeat

[br7knicks]

the more i think about it the less i understand the trade. he would've been a solid backup to mitch.

also not sure why winston wasn't selected with that pick. knicks needed a PG, and he would've helped.


my only guess is that the picks will then be used to attach to future picks to move up, in future drafts.

Having the 33rd pick in the 2nd round is about a strong as a 2nd round pick you can have. Yo trade it away did a future 2nd which will likely be a worse pick is a terrible trade and did not maximize our assets.

Well that's my continued frustration with it.

33 is borderline late first (this draft, in particular, noted that 20-40 were so close in talent and pickability).

I liked oturu because he made sense, or just go grab winston

[Richard4444]

I think the Front Office believed they could land Fred, Gordon, or Grant. And then, they could make a move for WB.

The prior moves were to win now too: Hiring Thibs and draft older Obi.

They would need cheap vets to make a win-now team without sacrifice the young players.

But they did not foresee the shopping spree from the NBA teams despite the crisis.

Almost all the teams were very aggressive. The Bucks that increase exponentially their odds to supermax Giannis after signing Jrue. Suns landing CP3. GSW using the TPE.

Even Hornets and Pistons were aggressive. Small market teams that will be deeply impacted by the revenue loss and are not contending at the moment like Indiana and Wolves also didn't try to save money and will spend near-luxury line.

The Front Office realized the prices were too steep and had to change their plan. To tank and try to get assets.