The Chicago Bulls select forward Patrick Williams #4 overall.

[cjbulls]

I am still utterly amazed that anybody has a problem with taking this guy.

This draft was awful. Stop giving credence to mock drafts like they're the end-all on where players are supposed to get taken. Go back and look at some of the pre-draft "consensus" top 10 picks over the last 5 years and where they ended up.

I don't think its just where he was mocked, it's a combination of things:
- Where he was mocked
- That he came off the bench in college
- He was not rated highly going into college
- He didn't have great stats in college
- He doesn't look like an off the charts athlete, just a good one
- He may be a PF and not a SF

So yeah, the first thing you're noting probably shouldn't be a huge problem. It is the context of all these other things. You can start trying to poke holes in all of them and explain all of them away, but from an Occam's razor perspective, the easiest conclusion to come to was this pick feels like a reach.

Maybe it won't be, as I said earlier, if someone took Jimmy Butler at #4 overall, they'd have been tarred and feathered and 5 years later would have looked like an absolute genius.

"He doesn't look like an off the charts athlete"....from the video I have seen he may not be vince carter but he's an excellent athlete...and you are saying it's a mark against him or insinuating it is a downside....come on Doug...his head get almost rim level and he does have some quick twitch to him.

He has a quick and powerful jump, but has issues with lateral/foot quickness and hip twitching to change directions. That’s where all the “can he play the 3” concerns come from.

As has been noted, right now he’s not a lockdown wing defender, but rather a good team defender and can defend forwards.

With that said, he’s so young he can still develop in those areas, but there’s no particular reason to think he will versus other prospects with similar issues (the extreme example being Toppin)

[Bankshot]

I don't think its just where he was mocked, it's a combination of things:
- Where he was mocked
- That he came off the bench in college
- He was not rated highly going into college
- He didn't have great stats in college
- He doesn't look like an off the charts athlete, just a good one
- He may be a PF and not a SF

So yeah, the first thing you're noting probably shouldn't be a huge problem. It is the context of all these other things. You can start trying to poke holes in all of them and explain all of them away, but from an Occam's razor perspective, the easiest conclusion to come to was this pick feels like a reach.

Maybe it won't be, as I said earlier, if someone took Jimmy Butler at #4 overall, they'd have been tarred and feathered and 5 years later would have looked like an absolute genius.

"He doesn't look like an off the charts athlete"....from the video I have seen he may not be vince carter but he's an excellent athlete...and you are saying it's a mark against him or insinuating it is a downside....come on Doug...his head get almost rim level and he does have some quick twitch to him.

He has a quick and powerful jump, but has issues with lateral/foot quickness and hip twitching to change directions. That’s where all the “can he play the 3” concerns come from.

As has been noted, right now he’s not a lockdown wing defender, but rather a good team defender and can defend forwards.

With that said, he’s so young he can still develop in those areas, but there’s no particular reason to think he will versus other prospects with similar issues (the extreme example being Toppin)

Lol he's got zero lateral hip issues and lateral foot quickness problems....my God man stop reading things from internet nerds that are wannabe scouts that don't know Jack about anything and repeat **** they heard from someone else of the same ilk...use your own two eyes....

[fleet]

A kid that size isn't going to move like Fred Astaire.

[cjbulls]

"He doesn't look like an off the charts athlete"....from the video I have seen he may not be vince carter but he's an excellent athlete...and you are saying it's a mark against him or insinuating it is a downside....come on Doug...his head get almost rim level and he does have some quick twitch to him.

He has a quick and powerful jump, but has issues with lateral/foot quickness and hip twitching to change directions. That’s where all the “can he play the 3” concerns come from.

As has been noted, right now he’s not a lockdown wing defender, but rather a good team defender and can defend forwards.

With that said, he’s so young he can still develop in those areas, but there’s no particular reason to think he will versus other prospects with similar issues (the extreme example being Toppin)

Lol he's got zero lateral hip issues and lateral foot quickness problems....my God man stop reading things from internet nerds that are wannabe scouts that don't know Jack about anything and repeat **** they heard from someone else of the same ilk...use your own two eyes....

Watch him in the UNC game. They switch him onto guards and he gets abused. Compare him to Okoro who held his own against Kira Lewis and other PGs.

Watch his highlights on offense. He isn’t putting on a double moves or change of direction. He generally drives hard and then elevates above for the mid range or bullies his way to the basket with strength.

I get that you like him, but be real about his assessment. You’re basically describing him as a raw LeBron at this point.

[bullsnewdynasty]

I am still utterly amazed that anybody has a problem with taking this guy.

This draft was awful. Stop giving credence to mock drafts like they're the end-all on where players are supposed to get taken. Go back and look at some of the pre-draft "consensus" top 10 picks over the last 5 years and where they ended up.

I don't think its just where he was mocked, it's a combination of things:
- Where he was mocked
- That he came off the bench in college
- He was not rated highly going into college
- He didn't have great stats in college
- He doesn't look like an off the charts athlete, just a good one
- He may be a PF and not a SF

So yeah, the first thing you're noting probably shouldn't be a huge problem. It is the context of all these other things. You can start trying to poke holes in all of them and explain all of them away, but from an Occam's razor perspective, the easiest conclusion to come to was this pick feels like a reach.

Maybe it won't be, as I said earlier, if someone took Jimmy Butler at #4 overall, they'd have been tarred and feathered and 5 years later would have looked like an absolute genius.

The counter is that several other teams wanted him - there was hype/buzz around him that wasn't there for other players.

Given that nobody's seen most of these guys play basketball for 8+ months besides what they've shown in workouts, there's a chance that Williams vastly improved from last year to this year.

Also, there's a good argument that college stats don't mean anything.

With all that said, we could have just drafted the next Wesley Johnson, but I think this draft will go down as one of the worst ones we've had in the last decade so I don't think we missed out on any clear all-star talent.

[Flopper]

Stephen Noh linked this scouting report on twitter a few days ago. Not sure if it's been posted already, but it's got a crazy amount of depth and some really good stuff regarding body composition and his poor lateral movement:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/130v50aO4riHKGBQVZ1sRxHOWsSVKjCkjGdW6zaPXYCc/edit#heading=h.wr3n0si6yasf

The combination of overreaction, hip level and footspeed makes this outside of Pat's current abilities. In fact, I would only feel good about Pat on 4s for the time being. The most important thing here is that all of this is fixable. Reducing quad mass and re-balancing his lower body should only take a summer with an NBA training staff and/or P3. I think the issue is that PatWill recruits muscle too well, that he gains muscle at a higher rate than others and this issue wasn’t noticed/fixable until it was too late -unless there is an underlying quad issue that this is compensating for, in which case, Pat would be medical redflagged and this whole report is null and void. When I took a deep dive on the FSU S&C program, I came away thinking that there was nothing faulty about the approach, that it had historically produced very good results and this one player's one muscle group seems to be an outlier.
The hip issue, as far as I can tell, seems fixable, but will be a slower process as hips are finicky muscles. The feet and ankle flexion issues I believe in, but that is not a fast process either. If Pat gets into situations where he can leverage his strength and athleticism against ballhandlers, it's usually fine.

[Indomitable]

Stephen Noh linked this scouting report on twitter a few days ago. Not sure if it's been posted already, but it's got a crazy amount of depth and some really good stuff regarding body composition and his poor lateral movement:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/130v50aO4riHKGBQVZ1sRxHOWsSVKjCkjGdW6zaPXYCc/edit#heading=h.wr3n0si6yasf

The combination of overreaction, hip level and footspeed makes this outside of Pat's current abilities. In fact, I would only feel good about Pat on 4s for the time being. The most important thing here is that all of this is fixable. Reducing quad mass and re-balancing his lower body should only take a summer with an NBA training staff and/or P3. I think the issue is that PatWill recruits muscle too well, that he gains muscle at a higher rate than others and this issue wasn’t noticed/fixable until it was too late -unless there is an underlying quad issue that this is compensating for, in which case, Pat would be medical redflagged and this whole report is null and void. When I took a deep dive on the FSU S&C program, I came away thinking that there was nothing faulty about the approach, that it had historically produced very good results and this one player's one muscle group seems to be an outlier.
The hip issue, as far as I can tell, seems fixable, but will be a slower process as hips are finicky muscles. The feet and ankle flexion issues I believe in, but that is not a fast process either. If Pat gets into situations where he can leverage his strength and athleticism against ballhandlers, it's usually fine.

There fore he might have already taken of the problem. He had 8 months to get taken care of. He is a tireless worker allegedly. He might have already resolved the problem.

[gobullschi]

Stephen Noh linked this scouting report on twitter a few days ago. Not sure if it's been posted already, but it's got a crazy amount of depth and some really good stuff regarding body composition and his poor lateral movement:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/130v50aO4riHKGBQVZ1sRxHOWsSVKjCkjGdW6zaPXYCc/edit#heading=h.wr3n0si6yasf

The combination of overreaction, hip level and footspeed makes this outside of Pat's current abilities. In fact, I would only feel good about Pat on 4s for the time being. The most important thing here is that all of this is fixable. Reducing quad mass and re-balancing his lower body should only take a summer with an NBA training staff and/or P3. I think the issue is that PatWill recruits muscle too well, that he gains muscle at a higher rate than others and this issue wasn’t noticed/fixable until it was too late -unless there is an underlying quad issue that this is compensating for, in which case, Pat would be medical redflagged and this whole report is null and void. When I took a deep dive on the FSU S&C program, I came away thinking that there was nothing faulty about the approach, that it had historically produced very good results and this one player's one muscle group seems to be an outlier.
The hip issue, as far as I can tell, seems fixable, but will be a slower process as hips are finicky muscles. The feet and ankle flexion issues I believe in, but that is not a fast process either. If Pat gets into situations where he can leverage his strength and athleticism against ballhandlers, it's usually fine.

Nice find!

[ZOMG]

Ouch. His lateral movement on defense seems to be a tier or two below my dad's.

[dougthonus]

"He doesn't look like an off the charts athlete"....from the video I have seen he may not be vince carter but he's an excellent athlete...and you are saying it's a mark against him or insinuating it is a downside....come on Doug...his head get almost rim level and he does have some quick twitch to him.

Its a knock against him because his skill level looks really low. Okoro was an off the charts athlete that could definitely defend the perimeter. If you just wanted to gamble on someone with athleticism, then he was your man.

[dougthonus]

The counter is that several other teams wanted him - there was hype/buzz around him that wasn't there for other players.

Given that nobody's seen most of these guys play basketball for 8+ months besides what they've shown in workouts, there's a chance that Williams vastly improved from last year to this year.

Also, there's a good argument that college stats don't mean anything.

Sure, all of this might be true. The guy might be amazing. The question of why he's viewed as a reach by many is the one I answered. He isn't a generational type athlete that could be picked high on pure potential and he showed almost nothing in college skill wise except low volume three point percentage with a slow release and high FT percentage which are mildly intriguing, and may or may not be able to defend the perimeter full time.

Maybe he's the next Kawhi Leonard for all I know, but based on what he's shown he seems like a huge reach.

With all that said, we could have just drafted the next Wesley Johnson, but I think this draft will go down as one of the worst ones we've had in the last decade so I don't think we missed out on any clear all-star talent.

Maybe, like Williams, all prospects will have a chance to prove themselves.

[fleet]

"He doesn't look like an off the charts athlete"....from the video I have seen he may not be vince carter but he's an excellent athlete...and you are saying it's a mark against him or insinuating it is a downside....come on Doug...his head get almost rim level and he does have some quick twitch to him.

Its a knock against him because his skill level looks really low. Okoro was an off the charts athlete that could definitely defend the perimeter. If you just wanted to gamble on someone with athleticism, then he was your man.

Just to note, it was said that there were 5 teams looking to trade up for Pat Williams. Not for Okoro, not that I recall reading about. Because of the size, and offensive potential. AK certainly disagreed about the level of Williams’ skill. We’ll see about that, but the Bulls made a point of saying that they believe Williams is not just a raw athlete. The bigger reach at 4 (and I don’t believe Okoro or Williams was a reach in this draft) is for the smaller perimeter player with less shooting potential.

This draft more than usual imo is going to have a few players down in the draft outperforming their pick number and players chosen ahead of them. It was different in that the predraft value of these players was all so similar. The scouts will have earned their money this year for sure.

[Bankshot]

"He doesn't look like an off the charts athlete"....from the video I have seen he may not be vince carter but he's an excellent athlete...and you are saying it's a mark against him or insinuating it is a downside....come on Doug...his head get almost rim level and he does have some quick twitch to him.

Its a knock against him because his skill level looks really low. Okoro was an off the charts athlete that could definitely defend the perimeter. If you just wanted to gamble on someone with athleticism, then he was your man.

What skill level looks low, jump shot form, dribbling, left hand, passing what exactly....

[Portiseyes]

Yeah another bad take.

[dougthonus]

"He doesn't look like an off the charts athlete"....from the video I have seen he may not be vince carter but he's an excellent athlete...and you are saying it's a mark against him or insinuating it is a downside....come on Doug...his head get almost rim level and he does have some quick twitch to him.

Its a knock against him because his skill level looks really low. Okoro was an off the charts athlete that could definitely defend the perimeter. If you just wanted to gamble on someone with athleticism, then he was your man.

Just to note, it was said that there were 5 teams looking to trade up for Pat Williams. Not for Okoro, not that I recall reading about. Because of the size, and offensive potential. AK certainly disagreed about the level of Williams’ skill. We’ll see about that, but the Bulls made a point of saying that they believe Williams is not just a raw athlete. The bigger reach at 4 (and I don’t believe Okoro or Williams was a reach in this draft) is for the smaller perimeter player with less shooting potential.

This draft more than usual imo is going to have a few players down in the draft outperforming their pick number and players chosen ahead of them. It was different in that the predraft value of these players was all so similar. The scouts will have earned their money this year for sure.

You are arguing a different point.

Someone made the comment to the effect that they don't know why people are upset about the pick. The reasons people would be upset about it are obvious. It doesn't mean those people are right or the pick was bad, but the reasons people didn't like this pick are obvious.

On the surface, Pat Williams simply doesn't have the resume or history to suggest he should be a top pick even relative to this weak class. He didn't show great skills in college, and he's an above average, but not elite athlete. On top of that, it may be the case that he's a PF and plays a devalued position that he's also undersized for.

So those are very realistic, obvious reasons why any reasonable person may dislike this pick.

Pat Williams may go on to do anything. I don't know what he'll do, but the above statements are all legitimate concerns. It doesn't mean he won't overcome them, and I agree with you that you could generally come up with a list of concerns about virtually anyone. I think Williams list is longer, but I've also acknowledged that we don't know what he did in the 8 months between college and the draft, he may already have come back with some insane skills.

[dougthonus]

"He doesn't look like an off the charts athlete"....from the video I have seen he may not be vince carter but he's an excellent athlete...and you are saying it's a mark against him or insinuating it is a downside....come on Doug...his head get almost rim level and he does have some quick twitch to him.

Its a knock against him because his skill level looks really low. Okoro was an off the charts athlete that could definitely defend the perimeter. If you just wanted to gamble on someone with athleticism, then he was your man.

What skill level looks low, jump shot form, dribbling, left hand, passing what exactly....

His low usage rate and pedestrian efficiency against college level competition suggests low offensive ability and combine to show that whatever he was doing wasn't exciting enough to be a notable threat on offense against collegiate level competition which certainly suggests significant limitations against NBA level competition.

The base assumption is that people don't have NBA caliber skills until they prove they do, not the other way around.

[fleet]

Its a knock against him because his skill level looks really low. Okoro was an off the charts athlete that could definitely defend the perimeter. If you just wanted to gamble on someone with athleticism, then he was your man.

Just to note, it was said that there were 5 teams looking to trade up for Pat Williams. Not for Okoro, not that I recall reading about. Because of the size, and offensive potential. AK certainly disagreed about the level of Williams’ skill. We’ll see about that, but the Bulls made a point of saying that they believe Williams is not just a raw athlete. The bigger reach at 4 (and I don’t believe Okoro or Williams was a reach in this draft) is for the smaller perimeter player with less shooting potential.

This draft more than usual imo is going to have a few players down in the draft outperforming their pick number and players chosen ahead of them. It was different in that the predraft value of these players was all so similar. The scouts will have earned their money this year for sure.

You are arguing a different point.

Someone made the comment to the effect that they don't know why people are upset about the pick. The reasons people would be upset about it are obvious. It doesn't mean those people are right or the pick was bad, but the reasons people didn't like this pick are obvious.

On the surface, Pat Williams simply doesn't have the resume or history to suggest he should be a top pick even relative to this weak class. He didn't show great skills in college, and he's an above average, but not elite athlete. On top of that, it may be the case that he's a PF and plays a devalued position that he's also undersized for.

So those are very realistic, obvious reasons why any reasonable person may dislike this pick.

Pat Williams may go on to do anything. I don't know what he'll do, but the above statements are all legitimate concerns. It doesn't mean he won't overcome them, and I agree with you that you could generally come up with a list of concerns about virtually anyone. I think Williams list is longer, but I've also acknowledged that we don't know what he did in the 8 months between college and the draft, he may already have come back with some insane skills.

Whoever we picked would have had a loud protest gathering. That is the nature of this draft right here for sure. There is no right or wrong answer, or smarter pick right now. Maybe even later as well. If Saddiq Bey becomes the guy everyone wishes they didn’t pass on, I won’t blame the teams that did.

[dougthonus]

Whoever we picked would have had a loud protest gathering. That is the nature of this draft right here for sure. There is no right or wrong answer, or smarter pick right now. Maybe even later as well. If Saddiq Bey becomes the guy everyone wishes they didn’t pass on, I won’t blame the teams that did.

Sure if its Saddiq Bey that becomes the guy we wished we choose. If its Toppin, Advija, Okoro, Haliburton, Hayes, or Okongwu whom were higher than Williams on probably almost every single draft board of every person on this site prior to this draft, then that won't really be true though.

If you go against what the conventional fan wisdom is and you are wrong, then you will be criticized more than if you go with the fan wisdom and are wrong. If you are wrong this is scant reward though, the most important thing is to be right. I hope we're right and the fans are morons (though now, for the most part, everyone seems to talked themselves into Williams, the initial reaction was very poor).

I used these two examples on my podcast:
Anthony Bennett
Jaylen Brown

Two guys taken near the top way ahead of where draft guru had them. One went on to be an all time bust and one went on to become a very good player (not the best available at #3, but good enough that you are happy with the pick).

[fleet]

Even those names. The teams that passed on Obi had good enough reasons to, whether or not they pan out. Draftniks weren’t caught up on Patrick Williams bullet rise at the time of the draft. Given another week or 2, and it would have been a different story as far as stock among the fan base goes.

I had Deni as my main guy, Okongwu was probably my second, and I was suddenly considering Pat. If Okongwu or Deni blows up, I will be disappointed, but not mad at the Bulls. This draft is a tough muther.

[Michael Jackson]

Stephen Noh linked this scouting report on twitter a few days ago. Not sure if it's been posted already, but it's got a crazy amount of depth and some really good stuff regarding body composition and his poor lateral movement:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/130v50aO4riHKGBQVZ1sRxHOWsSVKjCkjGdW6zaPXYCc/edit#heading=h.wr3n0si6yasf

The combination of overreaction, hip level and footspeed makes this outside of Pat's current abilities. In fact, I would only feel good about Pat on 4s for the time being. The most important thing here is that all of this is fixable. Reducing quad mass and re-balancing his lower body should only take a summer with an NBA training staff and/or P3. I think the issue is that PatWill recruits muscle too well, that he gains muscle at a higher rate than others and this issue wasn’t noticed/fixable until it was too late -unless there is an underlying quad issue that this is compensating for, in which case, Pat would be medical redflagged and this whole report is null and void. When I took a deep dive on the FSU S&C program, I came away thinking that there was nothing faulty about the approach, that it had historically produced very good results and this one player's one muscle group seems to be an outlier.
The hip issue, as far as I can tell, seems fixable, but will be a slower process as hips are finicky muscles. The feet and ankle flexion issues I believe in, but that is not a fast process either. If Pat gets into situations where he can leverage his strength and athleticism against ballhandlers, it's usually fine.

There fore he might have already taken of the problem. He had 8 months to get taken care of. He is a tireless worker allegedly. He might have already resolved the problem.

Interestingly I have been working on this myself. I’m not a spring chicken anymore and my hips having been neglected for decades really need strengthening. I found that it caused my knee issues and honestly in my case it stems back from an issue I had at 2. Now I have been using my legs wrong for 40 some years but it is fixable, I assume a 19 year old with a NBA training staff can counter that. I have over developed quads that just get strong so easily (same with my shoulders) and because they are strong they pull the other muscles out of balance. Totally correctable but when you are young and body building you over exaggerate your easy growth muscles and set up lots of chances for injury and overall less efficient performance.