Constructing the Timberwolves rotation

[raise_21_up]

Patton was suggested by others and was said to be available yesterday. Makes a world of sense to me. The guy does a bit of everything well and could backup PF and C with his size yet fit this Rosas/Ryan thing better then most. I might even move Layman's spot to fit him in if they don't plan on allowing him to play SF anyway. He would maybe come in just below the Collins number.

Patton would be a great signing and we might be able to get him as the second two-way contract.

I give up. This team is followed by the worst fans of the nation. offense intended

A. he's 23 years old and three seasons in already.

B. 45 days rule makes their eligibility to play often inert, and causes them all kind of sillyness and stress getting sent up and down constantly. Basically keeping them from practicing or being with the team much because any day with the team counts against it. So they don't get into gameplans or learn much how to play tight with teammates.

C. Last season for the first time, because of the delayed season and restart, teams were allowed two way players into the bubble and playoffs,. But they had to be activated on the top 13 players active roster to play in a game. They could carry 17 players into the bubble but those two way players only played if elevated to the 13 active. In the past, if the player turns out to be a stud on the court and necessary for playoffs or to stop others from picking them up later, you would have to convert their deaL to at least a real NBA minimum contract. (something they could have done with JMac at anytime in the past year.)

D. Two way contracts suck. The players live on ketchup sandwiches.

E. Too many Wolves fans suck at player evals and seeing how pieces fit together. Sorry, true.

F. uck it. MN Nice has left the building.

Guess I'm confused here on what point your trying to get across. Are you saying 23 yo is too old, does this guy deserve more than a two-way contract, or he doesn't fit in with our roster? Maybe all 3? I haven't followed this guy at all since we traded him away, so feel free to fill me in on anything new with him. For the upcoming season two-way contracts are a little more valuable, these players receive nearly 450K, that's a whole lot of ketchup sandwiches for a guy whose probably going to be in the g-league all season anyway.

[Jedzz]

Guess I'm confused here on what point your trying to get across. Are you saying 23 yo is too old, does this guy deserve more than a two-way contract, or he doesn't fit in with our roster? Maybe all 3? I haven't followed this guy at all since we traded him away, so feel free to fill me in on anything new with him. For the upcoming season two-way contracts are a little more valuable, these players receive nearly 450K, that's a whole lot of ketchup sandwiches for a guy whose probably going to be in the g-league all season anyway.

I don't want to take the time to fill you in anymore. I'm tired of being nice and trying to help. This team will absolutely never put all the pieces together because they almost always look the gifthorse in the mouth. They never take advantage of great fits available at great cost savings when the option is right there for them. Apparently they can't see the advantages gained by such moves and utilizing such players. You can't either. Just adding them to the bottom of the roster isn't going to make use of him.

For the last week there are hundreds of posts of people crying about not having what they see as a Viable PF solution for various reasons. They can see the opponents that will cause this team trouble. They also see the looming meltdown if say Towns goes down. He could really help both problems at once. The Clippers got him in a draft trade and just cut him for cap reasons. Gifts become available sometimes and the team should jump at them. Hopefully the fans would beg them to. But they are too busy it seems frontrunning top draft picks and skuttling anyone that wasn't. Make room and solve the issue.

Go, Look up why the Timberwolves drafted him 16th in 2017. There was a reason. There was also a reason it initially fell through and it wasn't his play. Look, watch the video of his play level this past January. That guy you see is a more energetic and nimble version of Jokic or at least a jack of similar extra skills for a big. Your first inclination is "...sure, that's great, let's two-way contract him." NO!

[Nick K]

I hope Rosas learned watching his beloved Houston Rockets get thoroughly abused by the Lakers in the playoffs how laughable small ball game plan is and was.

Even the Nuggets using two bigs killed the Clippers small ball.

Heat got beat up as well, although they made the mistake of not using their largest center in the final game. Lakers are unique in the offense they can get from a C and PF at the same time if you see AD as the center and Lebron is the PF. Wolves woud have had to draft someone like Toppin and then hope his defense comes around or else address a desire to play this way in FA.

Our lineup would never be classified as "small ball" with KAT present. Houston did not have a rim protector in their lineup anywhere. The key is protecting KAT from foul trouble by having the correct shifts along the perimeter. We often thru KAT under the bus when he's back peddling to the rim on the roll, but that's his job. The issue was that the weakside help often was not moving with the flight of the ball and others were out of position to contest in the lane. Hopefully, this is corrected now that players have been in the system for a while. Players like Vanderbilt and Ed Davis become crucial in a series with the Lakers because of their strength and length against Davis.

My argument against the whole thing, is being effective enough in your offensive game plan to force the opposition to adjust to what you're doing versus you having to adjust to them. The Warriors did this for years. Houston tried, but did not have enough firepower like Golden State. P.S. The bigs of Denver did not kill the Clippers, it was Murray. He was just on fire.

Great post. Couldn't agree more. The Wolves have real potential. If we can reduce mistakes and not go cold we'll be tough. And if Edwards blows up?!

[Nick K]

I know I'm throwing back a couple of pages here, but I feel like people take the whole age and timeline discussion a little too literally at times.

Just because a team is young and has players it would like to develop doesn't mean that it doesn't require any vets or that vets that it brings in are taking away valuable development minutes from any player under the age of 25. Young players need guidance and every team needs leadership, regardless of what stage of the competitive cycle they are in.

Furthermore, young players shouldn't always just be gifted minutes, there's something to be said for having to earn those minutes or feeling the very real pressure of losing them if you don't continue to strive to improve. Having a guy like Ed Davis get minutes doesn't damage the future of Naz Reid, if Naz Reid is better than Ed then he'll push him aside and take those minutes. If Naz isn't good enough to outplay a 31 year old Ed Davis then that's a problem IMO.

So true! I do think it's that way here.
The great part is if you show promise you get a shot.

[Midw35t]

From last year:
Rosas puts his players into three different positional groups — point guards, wings and centers. So, power forwards need not apply?
“For us, positionally, it is a different game,” Rosas said on draft night. “We talked about where we’re at in the NBA now. You have four perimeters. Point guard, three wings and a big.”
Small ball could be the Wolves’ new norm, only it wouldn’t be all that small. Minnesota could trot out a starting lineup of Jeff Teague, Wiggins, Culver, Covington and Karl-Anthony Towns. Culver is listed at 6-foot-6, Wiggins is 6-8, Covington is 6-9.
Layman is also 6-9. Minnesota has length and athleticism in spades.
“It’s just the game is played differently now,” Rosas said. “We feel like our wings are versatile. Robert Covington is a guy that has the most success at the four offensively, and he’s a tough defensive guard that’s very active.
“For us to be able to put a group of wings like we’re going to be able to put on the floor at certain points this year gives us a lot of versatility, gives us some shooting. Gives us playmaking. That’s how we want to play. For us to be able to execute that vision, we have to be built differently.”
What exactly is that vision? Josh Okogie gave a hint as to what Minnesota might hope to do defensively. When discussing Culver, Okogie said the rookie will help with “how hard we’re gonna play, and how we want to switch everything defensively, and how kind of versatile and how dynamic we want to play defensively.”
https://www.twincities.com/2019/07/11/timberwolves-sound-committed-to-small-ball/

A lot of people on this thread are trying to put a PF in the lineup at all times. Whether or not that is what we should do, I fully expect quite a few minutes this season with 1 PG, 1 Big, and 3 Wings.

Except we now have no starter talent at over 6'6. Outside of KAT.

[Nick K]

I did not know that about the Juancho and Layman numbers, so thanks for bringing that up. You did mention small sample, so I have to wonder how small, as KAT missed quite a few games and from memory did not share the court with Layman often. So was it vs. mostly starters? I would assume it was mostly opposing benches as well with KAT being kept on the floor to thwart a complete collapse. That has to be taken into consideration.

Either way, Juancho and Layman should both be bench PF and SF. We have no true PF, and have failed to find one to compliment him for too many years now. KAT is an outstanding player but it is obvious that the team needs someone to protect the back end, because he has so far proven he cannot. Oh, also someone to help him fricking rebound.

Juancho not rebounding well is a flat out myth. Vanderbilt has always been a rebounding monster.

Okay, we will see on Juancho. Vanderbilt is whatever at this point as he cannot shoot at all.

Honest question:

Do you think that we currently have anyone that really should be our starting PF? Or any team hunting for the playoffs?

Vanderbilt can shoot a little but we don't need him to do that very much. We need him to rebound like crazy, block shots-rim protect.
I'm rooting for him to start at PF. He's a big time sleeper coming on. Another Kentucky guy too!! Cal knows talent and a great teacher.

[Nick K]

I could be wrong but I don't know if Davis is really in their plans for playing much. I think his contract amount was more a less a tool for moving the other two players out. Has happened before, right? But I don't have much to go on with this. Just guessing.

Davis is the perfect piece for us. I wanted Okongwu so much as the perfect fit. Davis does that.

Maybe under Thibs, but not under Rosas. A player needs to excel on the perimeter full-time on both ends of the court under the current regime.

Davis can guard the perimeter very well. He's a 4/5 career wise. Now mostly a center but he's agile and fairly quick. He gives us something we don't have.

[raise_21_up]

Guess I'm confused here on what point your trying to get across. Are you saying 23 yo is too old, does this guy deserve more than a two-way contract, or he doesn't fit in with our roster? Maybe all 3? I haven't followed this guy at all since we traded him away, so feel free to fill me in on anything new with him. For the upcoming season two-way contracts are a little more valuable, these players receive nearly 450K, that's a whole lot of ketchup sandwiches for a guy whose probably going to be in the g-league all season anyway.

I don't want to take the time to fill you in anymore. I'm tired of being nice and trying to help. This team will absolutely never put all the pieces together because they almost always look the gifthorse in the mouth. They never take advantage of great fits available at great cost savings when the option is right there for them. Apparently they can't see the advantages gained by such moves and utilizing such players. You can't either. Just adding them to the bottom of the roster isn't going to make use of him.

For the last week there are hundreds of posts of people crying about not having what they see as a Viable PF solution for various reasons. They can see the opponents that will cause this team trouble. They also see the looming meltdown if say Towns goes down. He could really help both problems at once. The Clippers got him in a draft trade and just cut him for cap reasons. Gifts become available sometimes and the team should jump at them. Hopefully the fans would beg them to. But they are too busy it seems frontrunning top draft picks and skuttling anyone that wasn't. Make room and solve the issue.

Go, Look up why the Timberwolves drafted him 16th in 2017. There was a reason. There was also a reason it initially fell through and it wasn't his play. Look, watch the video of his play level this past January. That guy you see is a more energetic and nimble version of Jokic or at least a jack of similar extra skills for a big. Your first inclination is "...sure, that's great, let's two-way contract him." NO!

Hey, thanks for explaining yourself, maybe MN nice hasn't left the building lol. I can see now where our opinions may differ regarding Patton. You see him as someone who can help right away and deserving more than a two-contract, and he very well could. I remember the 2017 draft quite well, that was the draft I wanted us to get OG but he went a couple picks after we took Patton . Admittedly, I didn't know much about him at that time but I watched some of his college games/clips and once he came back from his foot injury I also watched Iowa clips and I remember being impressed by his passing skills as a big man. I did see this January game someone posted it on here. Believe he scored 40 points and had 8 assists which is all fine and dandy, but I take that with a grain of salt being it was in the g-league. If this guy is more energetic and nimble version of the Joker sign him to a max deal now! Honestly though, I do similarities between the two, just Patton being a very poor mans Joker.

Your optimism of Patton is kind of similar to this boards view of a current timberwolf Vanderbilt now, myself included. Besides Edwards, Vanderbilt is the guy I"m most intrigued to watch here in a couple weeks. I'm trying to keep my expectations low and hope to be surprised with his development and hopefully this kid earns some minutes to start the year. If we bring in Patton, I'll be hoping for the same.

[King Malta]

From last year:
Rosas puts his players into three different positional groups — point guards, wings and centers. So, power forwards need not apply?
“For us, positionally, it is a different game,” Rosas said on draft night. “We talked about where we’re at in the NBA now. You have four perimeters. Point guard, three wings and a big.”
Small ball could be the Wolves’ new norm, only it wouldn’t be all that small. Minnesota could trot out a starting lineup of Jeff Teague, Wiggins, Culver, Covington and Karl-Anthony Towns. Culver is listed at 6-foot-6, Wiggins is 6-8, Covington is 6-9.
Layman is also 6-9. Minnesota has length and athleticism in spades.
“It’s just the game is played differently now,” Rosas said. “We feel like our wings are versatile. Robert Covington is a guy that has the most success at the four offensively, and he’s a tough defensive guard that’s very active.
“For us to be able to put a group of wings like we’re going to be able to put on the floor at certain points this year gives us a lot of versatility, gives us some shooting. Gives us playmaking. That’s how we want to play. For us to be able to execute that vision, we have to be built differently.”
What exactly is that vision? Josh Okogie gave a hint as to what Minnesota might hope to do defensively. When discussing Culver, Okogie said the rookie will help with “how hard we’re gonna play, and how we want to switch everything defensively, and how kind of versatile and how dynamic we want to play defensively.”
https://www.twincities.com/2019/07/11/timberwolves-sound-committed-to-small-ball/

A lot of people on this thread are trying to put a PF in the lineup at all times. Whether or not that is what we should do, I fully expect quite a few minutes this season with 1 PG, 1 Big, and 3 Wings.

Except we now have no starter talent at over 6'6. Outside of KAT.

And it's a problem. I don't think the Front Office reached that outcome on purpose.

It sounds like they attempted to source some additional talent for that spot but failed. I expect we'll see them continue to try to find a Covington/Crowder/Nance/PJ Tucker style player to bring in for that 'big wing' role over the next season.

[Klomp]

D. Two way contracts suck. The players live on ketchup sandwiches.

Yeah, living on $385,000/year is rough. I don't know how they survive. Too poor to live on anything other than ramen and hot dogs.

[Klomp]

Except we now have no starter talent at over 6'6. Outside of KAT.

Hernangomez is 6'8"
Layman is 6'8"
Vanderbilt is 6'8"

At least one of those is absolutely starter quality talent.

[Klomp]

Davis can guard the perimeter very well. He's a 4/5 career wise. Now mostly a center but he's agile and fairly quick. He gives us something we don't have.

There's a difference between guarding Joel Embiid on the perimeter and Damian Lillard or James Harden. Davis can guard bigs on the perimeter regularly, but I would never trust him as a regular wing or guard defender.

[KGdaBom]

Except we now have no starter talent at over 6'6. Outside of KAT.

Hernangomez is 6'8"
Layman is 6'8"
Vanderbilt is 6'8"

At least one of those is absolutely starter quality talent.

If we aren't playing a PF than those three are our big wings.

[minimus]

Except we now have no starter talent at over 6'6. Outside of KAT.

Hernangomez is 6'8"
Layman is 6'8"
Vanderbilt is 6'8"

At least one of those is absolutely starter quality talent.

In IT we say that for IT system 100% availability is either too expensive or too difficult to technically achieve. Then business and IT team agree on SLA, saying that 99.9% acceptable (which is around 43 minutes per month of downtime). To get 99.99% availability you have to spend WAY more and make your system A LOT more complex. So the owner of the system decides what to do.

We tried to acquire Jones Jr, Millsap, Grant, and other PFs. It is clear that they are either too expensive or prefer another team/situation. We asked about Aaron Gordon, but apparently, ORL wanted two FRPs for him. Again, it is too expensive. I believe that our FO kind of agreed for now, that they won't pay for 100% fit at PF position. They decided to give this roster a chance to play, even if players at PF don't fit ideally.

I hope it is clear what I am trying to say.

[Midw35t]

Except we now have no starter talent at over 6'6. Outside of KAT.

Hernangomez is 6'8"
Layman is 6'8"
Vanderbilt is 6'8"

At least one of those is absolutely starter quality talent.

Do you honestly believe any of those three are viable starters on a playoff team?

[Midw35t]

Except we now have no starter talent at over 6'6. Outside of KAT.

Hernangomez is 6'8"
Layman is 6'8"
Vanderbilt is 6'8"

At least one of those is absolutely starter quality talent.

In IT we say that for IT system 100% availability is either too expensive or too difficult to technically achieve. Then business and IT team agree on SLA, saying that 99.9% acceptable (which is around 43 minutes per month of downtime). To get 99.99% availability you have to spend WAY more and make your system A LOT more complex. So the owner of the system decides what to do.

We tried to acquire Jones Jr, Millsap, Grant, and other PFs. It is clear that they are either too expensive or prefer another team/situation. We asked about Aaron Gordon, but apparently, ORL wanted two FRPs for him. Again, it is too expensive. I believe that our FO kind of agreed for now, that they won't pay for 100% fit at PF position. They decided to give this roster a chance to play, even if players at PF don't fit ideally.

I hope it is clear what I am trying to say.

I get what you are saying. Except we are operating close to 75%. Which is unacceptable. So you have to pay up.

[Klomp]

Except we now have no starter talent at over 6'6. Outside of KAT.

Hernangomez is 6'8"
Layman is 6'8"
Vanderbilt is 6'8"

At least one of those is absolutely starter quality talent.

Do you honestly believe any of those three are viable starters on a playoff team?

No NBA team starts five stars.

Is JaVale McGee a viable starter on a playoff team? He was.
Is Derek Fisher a viable starter on a playoff team? He was.
Is Luc Longley a viable starter on a playoff team? He was.
Is Kendrick Perkins a viable starter on a playoff team? He was.
Is Ervin Johnson a viable starter on a playoff team? He was.

Do they need to be upgraded in the long run? Probably. But for a franchise coming off a 19-win season, it's more than acceptable to start one of those guys.

[minimus]

Hernangomez is 6'8"
Layman is 6'8"
Vanderbilt is 6'8"

At least one of those is absolutely starter quality talent.

In IT we say that for IT system 100% availability is either too expensive or too difficult to technically achieve. Then business and IT team agree on SLA, saying that 99.9% acceptable (which is around 43 minutes per month of downtime). To get 99.99% availability you have to spend WAY more and make your system A LOT more complex. So the owner of the system decides what to do.

We tried to acquire Jones Jr, Millsap, Grant, and other PFs. It is clear that they are either too expensive or prefer another team/situation. We asked about Aaron Gordon, but apparently, ORL wanted two FRPs for him. Again, it is too expensive. I believe that our FO kind of agreed for now, that they won't pay for 100% fit at PF position. They decided to give this roster a chance to play, even if players at PF don't fit ideally.

I hope it is clear what I am trying to say.

I get what you are saying. Except we are operating close to 75%. Which is unacceptable. So you have to pay up.

Hopefully, basketball is a team sport. We play 5vs5. So, I'm okay with Juancho-Vando-Layman giving 75% of ideal production.

[winforlose]

Except we now have no starter talent at over 6'6. Outside of KAT.

Hernangomez is 6'8"
Layman is 6'8"
Vanderbilt is 6'8"

At least one of those is absolutely starter quality talent.

In IT we say that for IT system 100% availability is either too expensive or too difficult to technically achieve. Then business and IT team agree on SLA, saying that 99.9% acceptable (which is around 43 minutes per month of downtime). To get 99.99% availability you have to spend WAY more and make your system A LOT more complex. So the owner of the system decides what to do.

We tried to acquire Jones Jr, Millsap, Grant, and other PFs. It is clear that they are either too expensive or prefer another team/situation. We asked about Aaron Gordon, but apparently, ORL wanted two FRPs for him. Again, it is too expensive. I believe that our FO kind of agreed for now, that they won't pay for 100% fit at PF position. They decided to give this roster a chance to play, even if players at PF don't fit ideally.

I hope it is clear what I am trying to say.

It is very clear. I just happen to disagree. We traded Dario, moved a SF Roco to PF. Then we traded Roco and refused to play Spellman (granted he didn’t want to be here, but a lot of that was based on lack of minutes and opportunity.) We tried to make the playoffs, so we played JJ instead of Vanderbilt. We aren’t simply stuck because we struck out, we struck out because these guys see what will happen to them if they come here. Jones Jr talked about this in interview I saw on sbnation yesterday. Rosas wants small ball which is why Layman and JH (who are both big SF rather than PFs,) are the guys.

[Midw35t]

Hernangomez is 6'8"
Layman is 6'8"
Vanderbilt is 6'8"

At least one of those is absolutely starter quality talent.

Do you honestly believe any of those three are viable starters on a playoff team?

No NBA team starts five stars.

Is JaVale McGee a viable starter on a playoff team? He was.
Is Derek Fisher a viable starter on a playoff team? He was.
Is Luc Longley a viable starter on a playoff team? He was.
Is Kendrick Perkins a viable starter on a playoff team? He was.
Is Ervin Johnson a viable starter on a playoff team? He was.

Do they need to be upgraded in the long run? Probably. But for a franchise coming off a 19-win season, it's more than acceptable to start one of those guys.

Do we have a current top 5 player like all of those teams did?