Are we better than the Hawks?

[OAKLEY_2]

Are we...

[sca]

BTW it irks me that the OP has Gallo coming off the bench. He’s arguably the second best player on the Hawks roster. He’ll most likely not come off the bench.

[TheBoi10]

Raptors were 2nd in the whole NBA last year. Hawks are a poverty team.

[RaptorsNorth]

This is not just a shot at the OP but it’s also based on what I’ve been seeing on social media.

Some of our fan base really need to cut back on the amount of weed they’re smoking.

I just don’t get these “the Raptors are going to fall off” people. Sure we’re going to miss Ibaka but how long was Gasol out for last season ? What was our record without him ? Did the team completely fall apart ? Good defense alone is going to win the Raptors a crap load of games. Some people act as if the game is played on 1 side of the floor smh the Rockets would be running the league if this was the case. We’ve lost some things but we’ve gain some things. While we’ve lost Serge’s offense we’ve also gotten even better defensively with bigs that are better rebounders!! You know what that means ? we get extra shots.

[Harcore Fenton Mun]

It'll be nice to have the Hawks games worth watching again, it's definitely been a while.

[Steelo Green]

BTW it irks me that the OP has Gallo coming off the bench. He’s arguably the second best player on the Hawks roster. He’ll most likely not come off the bench.

GM already said he’s coming off the bench.

[TOStateofMind]

The hawks got better but they have miles to go before being anywhere close to good. Also the raps lost old an Marc and serge. Ppl acting like the team just lost dpoy Marc and prime KG or something lol. Regular season wise raps will as usual be near the top.

[JN]

Remember when BC decided that a starting core including defensive slalwarts such as Calderon, Bargnani, Turkoglu was a team that would for sure win 50 games.

[Steelo Green]

The hawks got better but they have miles to go before being anywhere close to good. Also the raps lost old an Marc and serge. Ppl acting like the team just lost dpoy Marc and prime KG or something lol. Regular season wise raps will as usual be near the top.

Not that I think we miss the playoffs or the Hawks will be better, but this thought that Marc was not a huge player for our team is not true. He was second only behind Giannis in terms of defensive rating in the entire league (adjusted for 25 mins obviously). He was also highest on the team in net rating (with Serge the lowest out of all the starters + Norm).

The hate for his O in the season and playoffs ignored still how he was our most important defender and had a huge impact to our team. This is why Ibaka's loss I am not as bugged by as he was mediocre on D and though he had some good games here and there, would often have mediocre offensive games when below average D.

We will take a step back for sure barring Siakam taking a step. Hopefully that end of the season horrendous showing was because of not picking up a basketball (which is pretty terrible for a 30 million dollar max player and their mindset).

If Kyle takes a big step back, it will hurt us a lot more than most realize. I know OG will be great on D but his O his very limited in terms of shot creation or scoring ability.

[gp2015]

We will always be better than the Hawks unless they can get a legit superstar before we do.

[Ramed Nazored]

Oh god. Yes. Emphatically yes.

There are three absolutely putrid defenders in the starting line up. Expect blow-by after blow-by and lay-up/dunk line as Capella's forced to step up and help. They're going to be bottom 5 in the league defensively.

[Danny1616]

The hawks got better but they have miles to go before being anywhere close to good. Also the raps lost old an Marc and serge. Ppl acting like the team just lost dpoy Marc and prime KG or something lol. Regular season wise raps will as usual be near the top.

Not that I think we miss the playoffs or the Hawks will be better, but this thought that Marc was not a huge player for our team is not true. He was second only behind Giannis in terms of defensive rating in the entire league (adjusted for 25 mins obviously). He was also highest on the team in net rating (with Serge the lowest out of all the starters + Norm).

The hate for his O in the season and playoffs ignored still how he was our most important defender and had a huge impact to our team. This is why Ibaka's loss I am not as bugged by as he was mediocre on D and though he had some good games here and there, would often have mediocre offensive games when below average D.

We will take a step back for sure barring Siakam taking a step. Hopefully that end of the season horrendous showing was because of not picking up a basketball (which is pretty terrible for a 30 million dollar max player and their mindset).

If Kyle takes a big step back, it will hurt us a lot more than most realize. I know OG will be great on D but his O his very limited in terms of shot creation or scoring ability.

While I agree Marc is massively underrated defensively, he missed about 3 months of basketball last season and our team was still elite.

On our 15 game winning streak we won our last 7 in a row without Marc.

We then had another 5 game winning streak until Marc came back.

We went 13-4 with Marc out of the line-up.

In the bubble Marc was not the same player he was in the regular season.

[Steelo Green]

The hawks got better but they have miles to go before being anywhere close to good. Also the raps lost old an Marc and serge. Ppl acting like the team just lost dpoy Marc and prime KG or something lol. Regular season wise raps will as usual be near the top.

Not that I think we miss the playoffs or the Hawks will be better, but this thought that Marc was not a huge player for our team is not true. He was second only behind Giannis in terms of defensive rating in the entire league (adjusted for 25 mins obviously). He was also highest on the team in net rating (with Serge the lowest out of all the starters + Norm).

The hate for his O in the season and playoffs ignored still how he was our most important defender and had a huge impact to our team. This is why Ibaka's loss I am not as bugged by as he was mediocre on D and though he had some good games here and there, would often have mediocre offensive games when below average D.

We will take a step back for sure barring Siakam taking a step. Hopefully that end of the season horrendous showing was because of not picking up a basketball (which is pretty terrible for a 30 million dollar max player and their mindset).

If Kyle takes a big step back, it will hurt us a lot more than most realize. I know OG will be great on D but his O his very limited in terms of shot creation or scoring ability.

While I agree Marc is massively underrated defensively, he missed about 3 months of basketball last season and our team was still elite.

I don't disagree that Marc didn't miss time, but a full season off versus 20 or so games is a pretty big difference.

Our Ws for the most part are always against below 0.500 teams, a trend that has been around since Casey. We beat up bad teams, and are okay against the good ones.

This may get us back to our 50 wins, but in the playoffs, that defense will be heavily missed.

I don't think any of us think we miss the playoffs, but Marc gone will definitely be a step back into the 4-8 seed range, but again that is dependant on if Kyle is still at an all-star level. The three games we won against Boston, he was by far our best player and carried us that series. That is why the future post Kyle I am not that excited for.

Marc was really bad on O in the playoffs, but still third in defensive rating behind Norm and Pascal (who did play great D despite his awful O).

We will see where we land. Having a player completely off your team has a major impact on a myriad of things.

Not sure why everyone thinks I'm hoping for failure, just my thoughts on where we stand. Brooklyn, Milwaukee, Boston, are all clearly better than us and with Bam and Herro getting better, I envision the same for Miami. Not an indictment of us, just we are in a weird spot, and if we strike out on Giannis the future looks very similar to the Demar days, minus the fact we have pretty good defenders, but severely lacking of offesnive talent.

[Danny1616]

Not that I think we miss the playoffs or the Hawks will be better, but this thought that Marc was not a huge player for our team is not true. He was second only behind Giannis in terms of defensive rating in the entire league (adjusted for 25 mins obviously). He was also highest on the team in net rating (with Serge the lowest out of all the starters + Norm).

The hate for his O in the season and playoffs ignored still how he was our most important defender and had a huge impact to our team. This is why Ibaka's loss I am not as bugged by as he was mediocre on D and though he had some good games here and there, would often have mediocre offensive games when below average D.

We will take a step back for sure barring Siakam taking a step. Hopefully that end of the season horrendous showing was because of not picking up a basketball (which is pretty terrible for a 30 million dollar max player and their mindset).

If Kyle takes a big step back, it will hurt us a lot more than most realize. I know OG will be great on D but his O his very limited in terms of shot creation or scoring ability.

While I agree Marc is massively underrated defensively, he missed about 3 months of basketball last season and our team was still elite.

I don't disagree that Marc didn't miss time, but a full season off versus 20 or so games is a pretty big difference.

Our Ws for the most part are always against below 0.500 teams, a trend that has been around since Casey. We beat up bad teams, and are okay against the good ones.

This may get us back to our 50 wins, but in the playoffs, that defense will be heavily missed.

I don't think any of us think we miss the playoffs, but Marc gone will definitely be a step back into the 4-8 seed range, but again that is dependant on if Kyle is still at an all-star level. The three games we won against Boston, he was by far our best player and carried us that series. That is why the future post Kyle I am not that excited for.

Marc was really bad on O in the playoffs, but still third in defensive rating behind Norm and Pascal (who did play great D despite his awful O).

We will see where we land. Having a player completely off your team has a major impact on a myriad of things.

Not sure why everyone thinks I'm hoping for failure, just my thoughts on where we stand. Brooklyn, Milwaukee, Boston, are all clearly better than us and with Bam and Herro getting better, I envision the same for Miami. Not an indictment of us, just we are in a weird spot, and if we strike out on Giannis the future looks very similar to the Demar days, minus the fact we have pretty good defenders, but severely lacking of offesnive talent.

First, that's what elite teams do...they beat up on the bad teams and win 50+ games. You act like winning 50 games is an easy thing to do in the NBA.

Second, we had a 16-15 record against teams above .500. The Celtics had a 15-15 record. The Bucks had the best in the conference being 17-13. Ironically, in the West the Clippers were 20-12 against teams above .500 and the Nuggets were only 17-15 against teams above .500. So this idea that we didn't play well against the good teams is a myth without any basis.

Third, you talk about other teams being better then us but who knows what will happen. Fred, OG and Pascal are also young and still have room to grow. Boucher still can get better. Nobody knows which teams will have injury issues. The Warriors got decimated by injuries, injuries hurt both the Sixers and the Mavericks playoff hopes. KD and Irving have had lots of injury issues, Butler has had injury issues etc.

Fourth, it's not easy to win a championship, let alone back to back. You can only put yourself in a position to win for a title and hope that your team is healthy, playing well at the right time, and gets some lucky bounces in the playoffs. The margin of error in the playoffs is small. The Rockets blew their chance to beat the Warriors in 2018 because of Chris Paul getting hurt in game 5 after they took a 3-2 lead. That unfortunate luck blew the Rockets chance at winning a title in the Harden era.


I believe we will still be very competitive. The East has gotten better but there is a lot of parity in the conference. I believe that anyone of us between the Bucks, the Sixers, the Raptors, the Nets, the Heat and the Celtics have a legitimate chance to go to the finals.

[Dalek]

I mentioned this before that the Hawks might surprise like Luka and Mavs last year. They can just all of sudden become good and it won't be through defense, but through having a top 5 offense. The issue they have is Lloyd Pierce. I don't know how good a coach he is to help bring together a talented team with a lot of player turnover in the past year.

Atlanta has tons of talent, but prior to this season Young has been almost been a one man band. Now that they have other good pieces, they might be able to take a big step forward. Young as a scorer is upper echelon in the NBA. The Hawks just need to do well when he sits, and with this depth the team should be more balanced.

Toronto wins a lot because of Kyle and a huge dose of continuity and great coaching. I think back to those wins against Boston and Dallas last December. We win a lot of the games we shouldn't because guys know our system and can step-up and Nurse helps them to succeed. It is like everyone is on the same page and Toronto has an identity that people buy into.

I could see the Hawks jump into the top five in the Conference but they will have to do it on the back of their offense which means they are going to have to out run and out shoot other teams. At worst they take the place of the run and shoot Brooklyn Nets from last year, but I think they have more talent to be higher.

[pr0gr4m]

We have the defense to contain their offense. They don't have a defense to our offense.

That's all.

[Steelo Green]

While I agree Marc is massively underrated defensively, he missed about 3 months of basketball last season and our team was still elite.

I don't disagree that Marc didn't miss time, but a full season off versus 20 or so games is a pretty big difference.

Our Ws for the most part are always against below 0.500 teams, a trend that has been around since Casey. We beat up bad teams, and are okay against the good ones.

This may get us back to our 50 wins, but in the playoffs, that defense will be heavily missed.

I don't think any of us think we miss the playoffs, but Marc gone will definitely be a step back into the 4-8 seed range, but again that is dependant on if Kyle is still at an all-star level. The three games we won against Boston, he was by far our best player and carried us that series. That is why the future post Kyle I am not that excited for.

Marc was really bad on O in the playoffs, but still third in defensive rating behind Norm and Pascal (who did play great D despite his awful O).

We will see where we land. Having a player completely off your team has a major impact on a myriad of things.

Not sure why everyone thinks I'm hoping for failure, just my thoughts on where we stand. Brooklyn, Milwaukee, Boston, are all clearly better than us and with Bam and Herro getting better, I envision the same for Miami. Not an indictment of us, just we are in a weird spot, and if we strike out on Giannis the future looks very similar to the Demar days, minus the fact we have pretty good defenders, but severely lacking of offesnive talent.

First, that's what elite teams do...they beat up on the bad teams and win 50+ games. You act like winning 50 games is an easy thing to do in the NBA.

Second, we had a 16-15 record against teams above .500. The Celtics had a 15-15 record. The Bucks had the best in the conference being 17-13. Ironically, in the West the Clippers were 20-12 against teams above .500 and the Nuggets were only 17-15 against teams above .500. So this idea that we didn't play well against the good teams is a myth without any basis.

Third, you talk about other teams being better then us but who knows what will happen. Fred, OG and Pascal are also young and still have room to grow. Boucher still can get better. Nobody knows which teams will have injury issues. The Warriors got decimated by injuries, injuries hurt both the Sixers and the Mavericks playoff hopes. KD and Irving have had lots of injury issues, Butler has had injury issues etc.

Fourth, it's not easy to win a championship, let alone back to back. You can only put yourself in a position to win for a title and hope that your team is healthy, playing well at the right time, and gets some lucky bounces in the playoffs. The margin of error in the playoffs is small. The Rockets blew their chance to beat the Warriors in 2018 because of Chris Paul getting hurt in game 5 after they took a 3-2 lead. That unfortunate luck blew the Rockets chance at winning a title in the Harden era.


I believe we will still be very competitive. The East has gotten better but there is a lot of parity in the conference. I believe that anyone of us between the Bucks, the Sixers, the Raptors, the Nets, the Heat and the Celtics have a legitimate chance to go to the finals.

Winning 50 games with Kyle yes, that’s been a consistent theme. I always say if Kyle is the same guy he’s been, no reason to not be an elite team. Not sure where I disagreed but a drop off from your best player is going to be a huge drop. Pascal, Fred, they were just bench guys when we won 50 consistently and the consistent to this day... is Kyle.

You’re right about the 0.500 record but if you dig a bit deeper, most of those wins were against Indiana and Philly. Milwaukee, Miami, LAC, though we played oddly well against the Lakers. Again, we used to beat up a lot of bad teams with Demar and Kyle only to be embarrassed in the PO. Kyle saved us from that embarrassment this year.

Once again, I’m not saying this is a bad team, just not a team with short term or long term title aspirations unless we have a stroke or luck and sign a superstar.

Fred and OG are very flawed in their games. Fred being a three point shooter who can’t score in the mid range or at the basket (tenth percentile for players in both), and a mediocre playmaker. OG a catch and shoot player who can’t do much with the ball in his hands. He has a handful of spin drives and people get excited but those are few and far between. Not sure why the injury bug is given one way but not the other. We could lose everyone too.

Luck is a huge factor, never disagreed, but more often than not, a superstar is almost on every title team ever along with a great deal of talent. The closest thing we had to one was Kyle, and none of our core moving forward is that. Pascal looked like he could be special but it looks like he’s been figured out because of his lack of range in terms of scoring. I hope I’m wrong about that but I don’t think anyone was impressed with the last few months of Pascal. He had the lowest drop in efficiency in the NBA for any player who stayed on their same squad. We only won a title with Kawhi and now we’re just a good team like we were before he left.

I guarantee Raptors don’t make the finals. You can bet me anything and I know this for a fact.

Boston, Miami, Brooklyn, Milwaukee all have a better best player than we do and history has taught us, that team nearly always wins.

Go throughout the history of the league. Which team without a superstar goes to the finals? Before you mention Detroit, they have 2 hall of famers and arguably the GOAT defensive player with two other all stars. Their amalgamation of talent was enough to surpass superstars and again is the exception to the rule.

I would love to be wrong haha.

Also I appreciate a civil discussion instead of just calling me a troll. I have no problem with a good debate or discussion. I just am not as strong on our future but I respect your view and opinion.

[macNcheese3]

I like the additions the Hawks made this off season. However we are the better team. Come on, we got the playoff experience, and the better overall players, not to mention the obvious better coach.

[Psubs]

It'll be nice to have the Hawks games worth watching again, it's definitely been a while.

Even when they had Horford, Millsap, Teague and Korver, they weren't really worth watching. Kind of like Spurs game. Tough sell.

[nabbs]

The Hawks best lineups of 2 way guys is questionable. It's probably like this assuming Trae is in:

Trae/Bogdan/Hunter/Gallo/Okongwu?

That's tough. Hunter and Okongwu are by far the best defenders but Okongwu is a rookie. Trae and Bogdan isn't really an idea defensive tandem at the POA. It's tough.