2020 Off-season Discussion

[DY_nasty]

Hayward's contract is not bad if we can get off of Batum and Rozier. We'd have a max slot next offseason if we do before signing Graham.

Stretching Batum makes it horrendous.

Even if we didn't sign Hayward and did nothing it would be hard to be worse than NYK, Cleveland, and OKC, so unless we make the playoffs, our range for lottery balls is probably the same. Somewhere in the 4-10 range. Whoever misses the playoffs in the West will have better records than we do.

Unless Washington takes Garnett leap or something

I still don't see the point in swapping hats between Rozier and Hayward. Rozier's probably better and on a better deal.

For all the "we need a veteran" stuff, its wild how people just talk around Rozier like he wasn't just posting videos of him working out with our young guys, having his best season *while sharing the position with a growing talent*, and proving all the negative stuff about him in Boston wasn't his fault.

[MasterIchiro]

[
Vague plan

Its not vague when OKC does it though. We can't build around anything, until we get something proven to be worth building around. Makes sense to anyone. Get assets, be opportunistic, stay flexible, commit to nothing until the core is clearly legit and then go all in. That's not indecision or vagueness - its patience with purpose. And right now, we're aggressively making bad decisions where the best outcome doesn't put us in a better position to do anything that leads to a championship squad.

I don't know what I did to piss you off on an online message board where you throw out thinly-veiled leading questions where you're already prepared to play contrarian no matter what I say, but get over it for everyone else's sake because its not that serious lol. I'll give an honest answer each time man. Throw you links and lay out my reasoning for it too - clearly more people than you read what I post. Whatever you're feeling is one way from you mainly. Sorry

Spoiler:

And get this, I like being wrong about guys. Again, ask the mods or anyone who's been around lol

I am not pissed off by any means. Just curious as to what plan you have that is better than what we are doing currently that you criticize every single move. Also, I never attack you or your plans, you much more aggressive in your responses with calling me thinly-veiled or eye rolls or telling how I am feeling or to get over it. I don't recall me saying anything to you along those lines so it would seem like you are the one getting sensitive on your responses. All I have asked is what plan you have that is better.

As far as OKC, they had a lot of picks from Westbrook, then more picks from Paul. Then picks from Adams. Then picks for Schroeder.

We do not have these assets to consolidate into picks unless you think people are giving up assets for Zeller or Rozier.

We also have way more young talent then OKC right now, so unless you want to trade Graham, Bridges, Monk, PJ and Ball and continue to go into a fresh mini rebuild it doesn't make sense because we are going to have to start pay these guys. Whereas OKC literally has SGA and only SGA. They drafted Poku who probably isn't coming over which can help delay their time even further.

So we are on completely different time lines, if you want to do the OKC thing then you should be trading Graham, Bridges, Monk and Rozier. Otherwise we are going to just end up paying our draft picks and only our draft picks and no room to sign outside help.

Agree with this perspective on Presti. Presti began with Paul George, Russell Westbrook, Steve Adams and Schröder. He then liquidated Chris Paul from the Westbrook liquidation. Are we supposed to feel surprised he was able to maneuver so freely?

What did Kupchak inherit? MKG unmovable. Marvin. Unmovable. Zeller. Unmovable. Nic Batum unmovable. Kupchak waited out those contracts while adding Ball + Devonte' + Miles + PJ + Carey Jr, a potential starting 5 in just 3 offseasons of work. BUT WHAT ABOUT THAT 9 MILLION DOLLARS MASTER ICHIRO YOU BONER!

Why are we comparing Cho's pu pu platter with Presti's 5 star restaurant?

If Kupchak's biggest mistake is eating 9 million dollars from one of the worst contracts ever awarded by a GM, I'm at peace with it.

[JMAC3]

We aren't in a window lol.

We are paying a bunch of rotation/starters peanuts. We could potentially have no bad contracts on the books. That is a window...

You know who is isn't in a window anymore? Boston. They are paying Tatum and Brown Max Contracts now, they are paying 90 million to their three best players next season. Compared to Hornets who could be playing their three best players 40 million and have another 40 million in cap space.

We need Ball and PJ to progress, but if they do we will be in a really really good spot by getting Hayward and potentially another starter in free agency next summer. Instead of the plan that everyone wants here which is continue to tank until we are in Boston spot of paying our young players Max and the window is over. Same with Toronto who is paying FVV and Siakam 55 million now vs the 11 million they were paying them 2 years ago when they won the title.

We do not have to agree, but that is how I see things.

[Braggins]

We aren't in a window lol.

We are paying a bunch of rotation/starters peanuts. We could potentially have no bad contracts on the books. That is a window...

You know who is isn't in a window anymore? Boston. They are paying Tatum and Brown Max Contracts now, they are paying 90 million to their three best players next season. Compared to Hornets who could be playing their three best players 40 million and have another 40 million in cap space.

We need Ball and PJ to progress, but if they do we will be in a really really good spot by getting Hayward and potentially another starter in free agency next summer. Instead of the plan that everyone wants here which is continue to tank until we are in Boston spot of paying our young players Max and the window is over. Same with Toronto who is paying FVV and Siakam 55 million now vs the 11 million they were paying them 2 years ago when they won the title.

We do not have to agree, but that is how I see things.

We're paying 30 million a year for Boston's fourth best player.

Boston's two best players are 23 and 24 and they made the conference finals last year.

[JDR720]

We aren't in a window. How are we in a window? We have a few cheap starters, but that doesn't mean we are in a window. We aren't sure those cheap starters are even that good. We need to be fairly sure our young players are actually quality before we go splashing the cash on older more expensive players.

Look at Atlanta. Young is a legitimate All-Star. Collins is probably an All-Star. They have at least a couple other good young players, Huerter, Hunter and added a top 6 pick in Okongwu. They have Clint Capella, a very solid youngish-veteran.

So, what did they do? They signed Gallinari, Bogdanovic, Rondo and Dunn.

That team, on paper, is a lot better than we are. Better guards, better bigs, better wings. They are in a window, they should be contending for the southeast division next season.

We should've been in their position next season. Enough cap to sign 2 max players, another top draft pick. Enough left over money to sign good role-players. There is no realistic way we are better off now than we were pre-draft.

[JMAC3]

We aren't in a window. How are we in a window? We have a few cheap starters, but that doesn't mean we are in a window. We aren't sure those cheap starters are even that good. We need to be fairly sure our young players are actually quality before we go splashing the cash on older more expensive players.

Look at Atlanta. Young is a legitimate All-Star. Collins is probably an All-Star. They have at least a couple other good young players, Huerter, Hunter and added a top 6 pick in Okongwu. They have Clint Capella, a very solid youngish-veteran.

So, what did they do? They signed Gallinari, Bogdanovic, Rondo and Dunn.

That team, on paper, is a lot better than we are. Better guards, better bigs, better wings. They are in a window, they should be contending for the southeast division next season.

We should've been in their position next season. Enough cap to sign 2 max players, another top draft pick. Enough left over money to sign good role-players. There is no realistic way we are better off now than we were pre-draft.

So we could of drafted a lottery pick and had 70 million in cap space next summer. Vs probably having a lottery pick and 40 million in cap space and Gordon Hayward. Who were you targeting with that 70 million in cap space?

Atlanta has to pay Collins very soon, so they are either going to pay him the Max and trade someone or let Collins walk, they probably overspent a bit, but it could work out. I like what they did even tho Reddish and Hunter haven't broken out if they do they could be a top 3 seed in the East now. If they would have not traded for Capela, signed bog, signed gallo then they would be in lottery again probably.

[yosemiteben]

So we could of drafted a lottery pick and had 70 million in cap space next summer. Vs probably having a lottery pick and 40 million in cap space and Gordon Hayward. Who were you targeting with that 70 million in cap space?

Two initial reactions.

(1) You think we'll probably be in the lottery again after signing Hayward to that deal? And that's not a good enough reason to believe it is a bad deal? I am trying to get on board with the deal, but if we suck again next year then I'm definitely not going to support it.

(2) You have incredible flexibility with $70M in cap space. I literally can't believe folks are on here acting like that's a bad idea.

[Braggins]

70 million in cap space and a top 5 pick is obviously better than 40 million in cap space and the 12th pick for a team that still needs to be rebuilding.

[JMAC3]

So we could of drafted a lottery pick and had 70 million in cap space next summer. Vs probably having a lottery pick and 40 million in cap space and Gordon Hayward. Who were you targeting with that 70 million in cap space?

Two initial reactions.

(1) You think we'll probably be in the lottery again after signing Hayward to that deal? And that's not a good enough reason to believe it is a bad deal? I am trying to get on board with the deal, but if we suck again next year then I'm definitely not going to support it.

(2) You have incredible flexibility with $70M in cap space. I literally can't believe folks are on here acting like that's a bad idea.

I think we will be in the playoff hunt, maybe we end up in the lottery maybe we don't. It will depend on how our young guys progress. My point is that are you confident that we would manage 70 million in cap space well? are we overpaying two free agents that summer? or are we not getting anyone and holding the bag for 70 million and not sure what to do with it? Are we just using that cap space to overpay Monk and Tae?

My thing is we are better this year with Hayward, he helps our young guys develop. We showcase our team and next summer we are trying to convince one guy to join Hayward and young guns instead of just standing there with 70 million trying to convince two guys to sign with us.

I have not see anyone tell me who they would be realistically targeting with that much cap space. Is that too far to think ahead to for the board?

[vorbis]

where is this clear path to the 5th (or better) pick that everyone's seeing in this hypothetical world where Hayward plays elsewhere this season?

[JDR720]

Seems like the *best* case scenario is we still suck enough to get a top pick, and we more or less just spent one of our max contracts a year too early.

But that, to me, doesn't mean that signing Hayward was worth it.

We could've tried to sign 2 of....

Gobert.
Oladipo.
Holiday.
Drummond.
Fournier.
Oubre.
Lonzo Ball

All of which are probably better that Hayward, or young enough to potentially be better than Hayward soon.

[JMAC3]

Seems like the *best* case scenario is we still suck enough to get a top pick, and we more or less just spent one of our max contracts a year too early.

But that, to me, doesn't mean that signing Hayward was worth it.

We could've tried to sign 2 of....

Gobert.
Oladipo.
Holiday.
Drummond.
Fournier.
Oubre.
Lonzo Ball

All of which are probably better that Hayward, or young enough to potentially be better than Hayward soon.

Not sure any of them are better than Hayward other than Oladipo and Holiday and Bucks are going to overpay to make sure they keep him after trading a billion picks for him. Drummond is horrible and whoever pays him more than 12 million will instantly regret it.

Also, we have already see what happens when you have to pay every single one of your free agents in one summer with Lin, Batum, Marv, MKG, Alexander... Signing Hayward this summer and another guy next summer staggers them so we aren't waiting for them both to expire the same summer or trying to resign them the same summer.

[JMAC3]

The one year this team doesn't go full on tank and plays our young guys like Graham, PJ and Rozier and tries to win games is the year we get lucky and move into the top three. Seems like good Karma.

Then this board wants to go against the Karma and continue full on tank for a number 1 pick....

We have gotten super lucky, if you redraft 2018 draft Graham probably goes in 7-10 range. Following year we pick 12th and PJ probably goes in 6-8 range in a redraft. Then following year we are supposed to have 8th pick and get lucky for third time in a row and move up to 3rd- and draft many analysts number 1 ranked player simply because he is a bad fit with Minny and Twolves.

So we have gotten the 8th best, 7th best, 3rd best talent in three drafts in a row instead of the 34th, 12th, 8th pick... how many more times do you want to try and get lucky before we start to build around this good luck.

[MasterIchiro]

So we could of drafted a lottery pick and had 70 million in cap space next summer. Vs probably having a lottery pick and 40 million in cap space and Gordon Hayward. Who were you targeting with that 70 million in cap space?

Two initial reactions.

(1) You think we'll probably be in the lottery again after signing Hayward to that deal? And that's not a good enough reason to believe it is a bad deal? I am trying to get on board with the deal, but if we suck again next year then I'm definitely not going to support it.

(2) You have incredible flexibility with $70M in cap space. I literally can't believe folks are on here acting like that's a bad idea.

I think we will be in the playoff hunt, maybe we end up in the lottery maybe we don't. It will depend on how our young guys progress. My point is that are you confident that we would manage 70 million in cap space well? are we overpaying two free agents that summer? or are we not getting anyone and holding the bag for 70 million and not sure what to do with it? Are we just using that cap space to overpay Monk and Tae?

My thing is we are better this year with Hayward, he helps our young guys develop. We showcase our team and next summer we are trying to convince one guy to join Hayward and young guns instead of just standing there with 70 million trying to convince two guys to sign with us.

I have not see anyone tell me who they would be realistically targeting with that much cap space. Is that too far to think ahead to for the board?

Do you really have to ask?

[MasterIchiro]

As long as we have a max slot for Oladipo or Gobert next year. I'm flexible. We will need to move Rozier at the very least.

[316Hornets]

We don't need to go into a rebuild, we already are in one, or should be. Signing Hayward (or anyone else) to 100+ million dollar contracts practically ends that rebuild and that is why a lot of us are frustrated. Our window hasn't even started, we are a few years away at best before we are legitimate contenders.

We do not have cap flexibility anymore, we likely will not be good enough to make the playoffs and at the same time not be bad enough to get a top pick. If we want to pay some of our young players, why would we sign a 30+ year old to a massive contract?

Hayward helps develop our young talent. We aren't a big market that can just play ping pong for 3 years and still have fan support. If you want to see what happens when you don't sign guys like Hayward, go take a look at the Knicks. Nobody there knows what's going on and nobody is developing. We witnessed it last year towards end of season when Devonte, PJ just hit a wall.

[Braggins]

The one year this team doesn't go full on tank and plays our young guys like Graham, PJ and Rozier and tries to win games is the year we get lucky and move into the top three. Seems like good Karma.

Then this board wants to go against the Karma and continue full on tank for a number 1 pick....

What lol? We didn't move up in the lottery because the universe was rewarding us for not tanking... It was random luck.

[SWedd523]

I want to thank you

We're paying 30 million a year for Boston's fourth best player.

Boston's two best players are 23 and 24 and they made the conference finals last year.

and you

We aren't in a window. How are we in a window? We have a few cheap starters, but that doesn't mean we are in a window. We aren't sure those cheap starters are even that good. We need to be fairly sure our young players are actually quality before we go splashing the cash on older more expensive players.

Look at Atlanta. Young is a legitimate All-Star. Collins is probably an All-Star. They have at least a couple other good young players, Huerter, Hunter and added a top 6 pick in Okongwu. They have Clint Capella, a very solid youngish-veteran.

So, what did they do? They signed Gallinari, Bogdanovic, Rondo and Dunn.

That team, on paper, is a lot better than we are. Better guards, better bigs, better wings. They are in a window, they should be contending for the southeast division next season.

We should've been in their position next season. Enough cap to sign 2 max players, another top draft pick. Enough left over money to sign good role-players. There is no realistic way we are better off now than we were pre-draft.

For PERFECTLY laying out exactly how short-sighted and frankly stupid it was to sign Hayward to a huge contract.


The Hornets still don't have a single guy you can look at and go "He's an All-Star" within the next few years. There's no guy on the team that the league will view as a centerpiece to anything remotely close to a champion contender. At best, we have a couple high end starters for good teams (PJ and Devonte), solid bench depth (Rozier, Miles, Martin Twins), a talented rookie (Ball), and a bunch of fringe rotation players.

You don't look at the current roster construction and go, "Yep, it's time to throw $120 million at a high end role player who will be 33-35 by the time the roster realistically approaches anything other than first round fodder.

If the team was sitting on a couple of elite youngsters, then yes, absolutely maximize their cheap years by throwing money at big time role players.

But this move reeks of MJ meddling and destroying future flexibility because he's tired of losing.

The contracts Atlanta gave out are exactly the types of deals the Hornets should've been chasing. Not the Hayward deal

[yosemiteben]

I have not see anyone tell me who they would be realistically targeting with that much cap space. Is that too far to think ahead to for the board?

Do you really have to ask?

I feel like I'm in this bizarro world where you all are asking us to defend why a team that is not projected to make the playoffs would want $70M in cap space. If you don't trust the FO with that, then you shouldn't be defending the Hayward signing as evidence of a smart FO, just evidence that our FO needs to be locked in to bad contracts so they don't get overwhelmed with uncertainty and having too many options.

Look, people can feel how they want, and I'm not even overtly criticizing the signing, but this seems like such a bizarre take.

[MasterIchiro]

Wow lol