How Come Buford and Gregg Popovich Get a Pass for Blowing the Kawhi Leonard Trade?

[2klegend]

The moral of the story is don't let emotion get into the business. This is often the case of poor management in a company as well. Good FOs should treat all players as an asset no matter how or what you think of the player value is. A younger, rising star player will always command more "value" on the trade market than a declining star. Ingram is still a more valuable trade piece than Derozen. The Spurs f up on that trade. There is no way to deny about it.

Moral of the story is if you don't trade with the Lakers their fans are going to continue to whine and complain and will try to convince you a **** deal is a good deal.

That's not a very smart move by the Spurs. You get the BEST possible deal available given your circumstance. Everyone knows at the time, other than LA, every team trade for him is a 1-year rental. That's why Boston is not giving up Tatum for 1-year rental. The Lakers knew they could sign him outright so they are not giving up a lot of assets like the AD trade.

In hindsight, the winner is Toronto. They bet on that 1-year rental and they won a championship while dumping Derozon on the Spurs. The Lakers also won because without Kawhi, they are able to have enough assets to trade for AD and the rest is history. The Spurs is the only loser here. Sadly it could have been avoided if the Spurs think without emotion. I don't know why your fan doesn't like Ingram because his personality and style fit perfectly into Coach Pop system. He is a low-key guy that is quiet and just wants to play the game. With his long frame, skillset, and Pop teaching, that guy could be special for the Spurs moving forward. But like I said if hindsight is easy, the Spurs would have love to get Ingram now and future picks and fast forward to rebuild quicker. History is history, the Raptors, Celtics, Lakers are winner in that fiasco.

[TheGOATWill]

trophy case

[Bigfactsstackz]

The moral of the story is don't let emotion get into the business. This is often the case of poor management in a company as well. Good FOs should treat all players as an asset no matter how or what you think of the player value is. A younger, rising star player will always command more "value" on the trade market than a declining star. Ingram is still a more valuable trade piece than Derozen. The Spurs f up on that trade. There is no way to deny about it.

Moral of the story is if you don't trade with the Lakers their fans are going to continue to whine and complain and will try to convince you a **** deal is a good deal.

That's not a very smart move by the Spurs. You get the BEST possible deal available given your circumstance. Everyone knows at the time, other than LA, every team trade for him is a 1-year rental. That's why Boston is not giving up Tatum for 1-year rental. The Lakers knew they could sign him outright so they are not giving up a lot of assets like the AD trade.

In hindsight, the winner is Toronto. They bet on that 1-year rental and they won a championship while dumping Derozon on the Spurs. The Lakers also won because without Kawhi, they are able to have enough assets to trade for AD and the rest is history. The Spurs is the only loser here. Sadly it could have been avoided if the Spurs think without emotion. I don't know why your fan doesn't like Ingram because his personality and style fit perfectly into Coach Pop system. He is a low-key guy that is quiet and just wants to play the game. With his long frame, skillset, and Pop teaching, that guy could be special for the Spurs moving forward. But like I said if hindsight is easy, the Spurs would have love to get Ingram now and future picks and fast forward to rebuild quicker. History is history, the Raptors, Celtics, Lakers are winner in that fiasco.

It’s a thing called pride ... A coach and a gm who have 5 rings together and never really had any player issues aren’t just gonna give in to a guy and his uncles crazy demands

[Bigfactsstackz]

What's all this fuss about Ingram blood clots? He was healthy in last season, Ingram has had a successful thoracic decompression outlet surgery, correcting the structural issue (from Reddit). He is better than DeRozan. I think for Spurs it was a matter of pride - they didn't want to trade Leonard who quit on them to his preferred destination. But don't spin it like DeRozan is better than Ingram or that he is worth something. He should be lucky he played in the East and got those All Star Games appearances. In West DeRozan is irrelevant.

Okay i got a job for you .., prove to me Ingram is better

Last year's stats:

Ingram 23.8 pts, 6.1 rebs, 4.2 ast, 1 stl, .6 blks ---- 46.3 FG%, 2.4 made threes at 39.1% ---- 58.7 TS%

DeRozan 22.1 pts, 5.5 rebs, 5.6 ast, 1 stl, .3 blks --- 53.1 FG%, 0.1 made threes at 25.7% ---- 60.3 TS%


Statistically they were pretty similar last year. Except that Ingram is a good three point shooter and DeRozan doesn't shoot 3's at all. And DeRozan had a higher FG%.

The argument is that the Spurs (who had seemingly no chance at winning a Title in 2018 or now) should have embraced a rebuild.

In a rebuild scenario, Brandon Ingram is unequivocally better and more valuable than DeRozan.

Ingram is Age: 23-086d. DeRozan is Age: 31-112d

Ingram has a 7'3" wingspan. He hasn't even entered his prime yet. He has the potential to become an elite 2 way player.

There isn't a GM in the league that would take DeRozan over Ingram right now. If not just because of their massive age/potential difference.

DeRozan is already past his peak. The only argument you could possibly make in his favor vs. Ingram is that DeRozan might be (but still this isn't even definitive) more valuable for 1 more year or so for a contender who is on the precipice of a championship. E.g. a team like the Lakers or Bucks or Heat or Phila

But for the Spurs? DeRozan has basically no value because he's not getting any better and he's not taking them anywhere near a Title. And he's not going to get them much back in a trade either (compared to the young assets they could have gotten for Kawhi).

What other young assets besides Ingram ? We have no need for Ball or Josh Hart ..I could argue that giving Ingram the max would stick the team in further mediocrity atm he’s an empty stats kinda guy..

[Pop Daddy]

Pops knows all

[Bigfactsstackz]

Hopefully when Keldon Johnson blows up this season and becomes our next Kawhi people will remember we got him via the Kawhi trade and it won't look so bad

They’ll ignore it .. It won’t fit their agenda..

Dude has the tools to be a future all star

[DoctorX]

The moral of the story is don't let emotion get into the business. This is often the case of poor management in a company as well. Good FOs should treat all players as an asset no matter how or what you think of the player value is. A younger, rising star player will always command more "value" on the trade market than a declining star. Ingram is still a more valuable trade piece than Derozen. The Spurs f up on that trade. There is no way to deny about it.

Moral of the story is if you don't trade with the Lakers their fans are going to continue to whine and complain and will try to convince you a **** deal is a good deal.

That's not a very smart move by the Spurs. You get the BEST possible deal available given your circumstance. Everyone knows at the time, other than LA, every team trade for him is a 1-year rental. That's why Boston is not giving up Tatum for 1-year rental. The Lakers knew they could sign him outright so they are not giving up a lot of assets like the AD trade.

In hindsight, the winner is Toronto. They bet on that 1-year rental and they won a championship while dumping Derozon on the Spurs. The Lakers also won because without Kawhi, they are able to have enough assets to trade for AD and the rest is history. The Spurs is the only loser here. Sadly it could have been avoided if the Spurs think without emotion. I don't know why your fan doesn't like Ingram because his personality and style fit perfectly into Coach Pop system. He is a low-key guy that is quiet and just wants to play the game. With his long frame, skillset, and Pop teaching, that guy could be special for the Spurs moving forward. But like I said if hindsight is easy, the Spurs would have love to get Ingram now and future picks and fast forward to rebuild quicker. History is history, the Raptors, Celtics, Lakers are winner in that fiasco.

What could have been avoided here? Spurs were going to have the same results with BI that they had with Derozan which would be a team barely getting in to the playoffs or going to the lottery. Lets see in both scenarios the Spurs get an empty stat player. It comes down to who do they want to help which is the Lakers or Raptors? I still go with the Raptors over the Lakers any day. Yeah It sucked Kawhi won at the Spurs expense but I can live with it since it wasn't with the Lakers. BI is not a superstar and never will be. I'm not ever going to lose sleep about the Spurs not getting him.

Personally I don't believe in trading top 5 superstars because in this league you don't win a title once you lose a top 5 player like Kawhi. Look at the bucks when they traded Jabbar to the Lakers. They went 40 some years without having an MVP type of player. There has never been a team that has gotten fair value back when they have had to trade a superstar that was a top 5 player. I would have preferred the Spurs hold on to Kawhi and let him walk and then rebuild.

[G R E Y]

better than Derozan lol, Ingram already accomplished something DD could only fantasize bout, shot 40% from 3s oh yeah an all star in the west at 23, while DD wouldn't even sniff a skills contest invite

Yes great achievement by Ingram and he still couldn't lead his team to the playoffs which is the definition of an empty stat player.

This was ingram's 4th season, first 3 were on a circus Lakers team.
Derozan didn't make the playoffs till is 5th season and was never the best player on the team.

Isolating Ingram vs. DeRozan is an intellectual exercise, but not rooted in the reality of the deal. It was Ingram (with blood clot questions at the time if I recall the timeline correctly) - not an All-Star then as we requested, Ball and Hart - two players we didn't need as we like the crop we have there, and the weight of Deng's contract - taking upunnecessary room in our long-planned 2021 cap space.

Now, given all that, is Ingram really worth taking on the extras we neither need nor want to be pulled down by? Suddenly, DeMar, his contract, and his vet presence start looking all the better. You only saddle yourself with all the extras you don't need for a generational talent. That's not Ingram. If Pels fans are happy with him and paying him that money, good for them. We're just as happy not to.

Best to look at the deals on the table and weigh them accordingly.

[DoctorX]

Yes great achievement by Ingram and he still couldn't lead his team to the playoffs which is the definition of an empty stat player.

This was ingram's 4th season, first 3 were on a circus Lakers team.
Derozan didn't make the playoffs till is 5th season and was never the best player on the team.

Isolating Ingram vs. DeRozan is an intellectual exercise, but not rooted in the reality of the deal. It was Ingram (with blood clot questions at the time if I recall the timeline correctly) - not an All-Star then as we requested, Ball and Hart - two players we didn't need as we like the crop we have there, and the weight of Deng's contract - taking up room unnecessary room in our long-planned 2021 cap space.

Now, given all that, is Ingram really worth taking on the extras we neither need nor want to be pulled down by? Suddenly, DeMar, his contract, and his vet presence start looking all the better. You only saddle yourself with all the extras you don't need for a generational talent. That's not Ingram. If Pels fans are happy with him and paying him that money, good for them. We're just as happy not to.

Best to look at the deals on the table and weigh them accordingly.

Agreed the Spurs already had Dejounte and White so they didn't need more guards in Hart/Ball.

[jbk1234]

The problem to me wasn't turning down the Lakers offer, it was accepting an offer with DeRozan as the centerpiece.

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[DoctorX]

The problem to me wasn't turning down the Lakers offer, it was accepting an offer with DeRozan as the centerpiece.

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I never wanted Derozan TBH but there was no other offers out there. The other offers were even worse. The only one I thought that was decent was the Hornets offering Kemba for Kawhi.

[G R E Y]

The problem to me wasn't turning down the Lakers offer, it was accepting an offer with DeRozan as the centerpiece.

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Think of it less as a centerpiece deal - that's really more for the team that is getting the best player back, and more about an overall package that helps the team in the present and future - All Star DeMar, prospect Jakob at C, pick in Keldon Johnson - without hurting it at the same time - players who we had no need for in Ball and Hart, and Deng's debilitating contract, despite whatever greatness people are attributing to Ingram. I think he's a very nice young player, but getting highly overrated for the purposes of continuing a narrative that isn't taking all the positive long-term effects for us into account.

[MadMaximum]

I dont consider BI who had some blood clot issue, a first round pick and Deng a "godfather" offer

That's a turd sandwich. The Deng contract alone should have been worth an extra pick. Hart is a nothing player that will be out of the league soon. Ball is redundant with Spurs having already drafted a similar player in Murray. Ingram is supposed to be the crown jewel in this deal and he kinda sucks. Blood clots make him a ticking time bomb. His impact(or lack thereof) is alarming for someone that plays as much minutes as he does. Empty calories.

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[Vae Victus]

At the time, the Lakers likely offer was Ingram, Deng (salary ballast), Randle (RFA S&T expendable due to Kuz), maybe Hart, and im sure a future FRP isnt out of the question. I doubt the Lakers were willing to offer up the #2 at the time, since Magic was infatuated with Lonzo. It's a light offer for sure, but it involves a coupla young prospects for Pop to mold (Randle might've been salvagable under a REAL coach), and no expectation to compete for the next year or two. Trade out Aldridge while he still had some value, unlike now, where's he a really old man. No one woulda given Pop/SAS any **** for deciding to blow it all up.

The Spurs, really should've taken the offer and then bottomed out to get into the Zion sweepstakes, where the #2 pick consolation prize woulda been an amazing Ja Morant (obvious hindsight, but hey). Dump Patty Mills back onto LAL since he had like 3 years left on his deal, ride out Deng's putrid albatross as they tank for a year or two. The Spurs are no stranger to strategic tanking, its how they got TIMMEH, when the Admiral went down with season ending injury early in the season. Ingram came out pretty well in NOP, i'm 100% sure he'd have been molded into a top notch player under Pop. Randle might have been molded into a player worth a damn, Hart likely develops into a solid high tier role player under Pop.

As other have noted, taking DD meant the team was "competitive", but everyone knew that sure as hell wasnt the case. Add another year and Aldridge and DD has zero trade value and not good enough to go anywhere.

Hell if anything Spurs fans should be mad! If Kawhi had been traded to the Lakers 2 years ago, it's unlikely the Lakers woulda had enough to get AD the following offseason, which means A) No TOR championship for Kawhi to rub in your faces and B) NO championship in LA in 2020! A Lebron + Kawhi + Lonzo + Kuz (LOL) combo wasnt gonna win crap.

Instead Pop chose a scenario where Kawhi wins in 2019 and Lakers win in 2020! A double face slapping whammy!

[G R E Y]

One of the worst trades of the last 10 years...they traded a top 5 player and a good role player for an empty stats guy with a bad contract that put them in a treadmill situation. Sorry but adding Poetl and a late first round pick doesn't make that trade look any better.

Why not? The Spurs themselves are happy with the trade. What alternatives on the table were better given the All Star, prospect, pick parameters? DD's coming off the books, Jakob is very valuable defensively for us, and Keldon Johnson is the pick. He's going to be another one of those 'Damn it, Spurs got another one' players. The point here is that people are too quick to let the effects of a deal play out. It takes time to see what that pick can become, how Jakob can help, what we do with the cap space in 2021. These types of pronouncements don't come with viable alternatives given the reality of the parameters sought in the trade. So what do you suggest would have been better and why?

I think the LA deal was better simply because it was for just younger players and would have allowed SA to rebuild and get high picks for a few years and build through the draft.

Right now there a treadmill team who’s not good enough to go anywhere but not bad enough to get a real high pick in hopes of landing a franchise player to build around.

Several posters in this thread have mentioned 'rebuild', 'rebuild sooner / faster', and 'treadmill'. It's important to look at these in the context of how the Spurs approach transition.

First, as a fan I have zero problem with the Spurs trying to go for the record of consecutive playoff streaks. That we tied it with a season in which we had over 200 games missed due to injuries and were able to use our projected starting line-up once in the entire 2017-18 season, followed by one in which we had nearly 200 games missed due to injury is a feat that doesn't get nearly enough acknowledgement. Anyway, it's in the record books forever.

Second, in pragmatic terms, small markets like SA can't really afford to tank or strip down to a full rebuild as the former is no guarantee of success and the latter isn't how the Spurs operate.

Third, people don't seem to understand that this IS the rebuild even as we've tried to remain competitive throughout the past couple of seasons. The Spurs are methodical about developing young guys and simply do not shortchange that process. Rarely, some players get minutes like Timmy who was obviously ready as a rookie or Dejounte who was thrust into a starting role in the playoffs when Tony ruptured his quad. But besides Tony and Manu who played professionally before they got here, most of our draftees have been late first round picks who needed seasoning. Spurs do things at their own pace. So despite some challenging tangents, we're still on the cusp of huge 2021 cap space, with Dejounte Murray, Derrick White, Lonnie Walker IV, and Keldon Johnson on the cusp of bigger roles together this season.

As to your comment about trading for just younger players, it's not a matter of youth alone. We had no need for Hart and Ball as we love our guards and have plenty of them. And Ingram, while a fine young talent, isn't a franchise player to build around either. If he were, he'd have a bigger impact on his team winning. A high pick doesn't really guarantee that franchise talent either, but for those can't miss drafts. It's a lot more about a team's development program, and I trust ours implicitly. It's why Vassell is assured of getting the most made of his talent. But we won't throw him out there without some seasoning.

As to the treadmill comment, we have a far younger team with a higher floor and a higher ceiling with tons of cap space in 2021:

Read on Twitter

All four of the vets are off the books at the end of this upcoming season.

So that's

DJ/Patty/Quinn/Tre

Derrick/Lonnie

DeMar (can be 2 or small ball 4 like in the bubble)/Keldon/Devin (2 or 3)

Trey/Rudy/Luka

LMA/Jakob/Drew

This is a more balanced team than in the previous two years, and an almost wholly different one than the one we had three years ago which was heavy with vets. The transition has been happening, we have been restocking youth through the draft, the transition continues to happen, and now with the young guys better developed, they will be given bigger roles. I can't wait to see what they can do, and I'm excited about what we do with our cap space as well. It may be happening slower than people think, perhaps so deliberate that people don't think it's happening, but we're a better, younger, more balanced team with a big surplus to spend soon. Let's see how it plays out. I wouldn't bet against PATFO.

[LakersSoul]

Okay i got a job for you .., prove to me Ingram is better

Last year's stats:

Ingram 23.8 pts, 6.1 rebs, 4.2 ast, 1 stl, .6 blks ---- 46.3 FG%, 2.4 made threes at 39.1% ---- 58.7 TS%

DeRozan 22.1 pts, 5.5 rebs, 5.6 ast, 1 stl, .3 blks --- 53.1 FG%, 0.1 made threes at 25.7% ---- 60.3 TS%


Statistically they were pretty similar last year. Except that Ingram is a good three point shooter and DeRozan doesn't shoot 3's at all. And DeRozan had a higher FG%.

The argument is that the Spurs (who had seemingly no chance at winning a Title in 2018 or now) should have embraced a rebuild.

In a rebuild scenario, Brandon Ingram is unequivocally better and more valuable than DeRozan.

Ingram is Age: 23-086d. DeRozan is Age: 31-112d

Ingram has a 7'3" wingspan. He hasn't even entered his prime yet. He has the potential to become an elite 2 way player.

There isn't a GM in the league that would take DeRozan over Ingram right now. If not just because of their massive age/potential difference.

DeRozan is already past his peak. The only argument you could possibly make in his favor vs. Ingram is that DeRozan might be (but still this isn't even definitive) more valuable for 1 more year or so for a contender who is on the precipice of a championship. E.g. a team like the Lakers or Bucks or Heat or Phila

But for the Spurs? DeRozan has basically no value because he's not getting any better and he's not taking them anywhere near a Title. And he's not going to get them much back in a trade either (compared to the young assets they could have gotten for Kawhi).

What other young assets besides Ingram ? We have no need for Ball or Josh Hart ..I could argue that giving Ingram the max would stick the team in further mediocrity atm he’s an empty stats kinda guy..

They you can do this thing called “trading them away”.

Ingram, Lonzo, Hart plus 3 FRPs and fillers would have been the end trade. Good thing for Lakers that didn’t happen or we prob never have Bron/AD combo now.

[bullsaficianado]

Hell if anything Spurs fans should be mad! If Kawhi had been traded to the Lakers 2 years ago, it's unlikely the Lakers woulda had enough to get AD the following offseason, which means A) No TOR championship for Kawhi to rub in your faces and B) NO championship in LA in 2020! A Lebron + Kawhi + Lonzo + Kuz (LOL) combo wasnt gonna win crap.

Instead Pop chose a scenario where Kawhi wins in 2019 and Lakers win in 2020! A double face slapping whammy!

You forgot to add Warriors would have won the NBA title in 2019 and still could have KD. That Raptors team with Kawhi was tough to beat. They broke them down because they were already tired from the title runs.

So Pop's stubbornness hurt both the Spurs and Warriors.

[Capn'O]

Because they were at or near the top of the league for damn near three decades.

[DoctorX]

Hell if anything Spurs fans should be mad! If Kawhi had been traded to the Lakers 2 years ago, it's unlikely the Lakers woulda had enough to get AD the following offseason, which means A) No TOR championship for Kawhi to rub in your faces and B) NO championship in LA in 2020! A Lebron + Kawhi + Lonzo + Kuz (LOL) combo wasnt gonna win crap.

Instead Pop chose a scenario where Kawhi wins in 2019 and Lakers win in 2020! A double face slapping whammy!

You forgot to add Warriors would have won the NBA title in 2019 and still could have KD. That Raptors team with Kawhi was tough to beat. They broke them down because they were already tired from the title runs.

So Pop's stubbornness hurt both the Spurs and Warriors.

A Lakers team with Kawhi-Lebron would have taken out the Warriors in '19. Remember Durant missed half of the second round, and the WCF, along with the first 4 games of the Finals. Kawhi-Lebron against a Durantless Warriors team would have won. Keep in mind the Lakers would have found a way to get decent role players through trade and there would be role players who would be ring chasers that would come there to play for cheap. That tends to always happen with the Lakers when they are contenders.

[thamadkant]

Popovic not trading with a rival team is perfectly understandable..

hence why teams would always prefer a trade with a team from the other conference... OP should improve his/her understanding of the concept of strategy.