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Fire Ainge: Thanks Danny, but it's time to go

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Re: Fire Ainge: Thanks Danny, but it's time to go 

Post#201 » by playa-hater » Sat Nov 28, 2020 1:20 am

ParticleMan wrote:the only proper way to evaluate ainge and the C's FO is with respect to other teams (all of whom also have scouting depts). if there's a GM who has, with every single draft pick, always picked the player that turned out to be the best available, then i will accept these sort of "oh but danny missed on XXX" criticisms. hint: there's no such GM.

otherwise, you have to evaluate things statistically, based on metrics that are APPLIED TO ALL TEAMS. not just one standard for danny ainge, and another standard for every other GM.

when you do that sort of analysis, ainge typically comes out as one of the top or at least better drafters in the league. here's a recent example, which puts ainge as the #2 GM in drafting ability over the last 10 years, just edged out by Denver's Tim Connelly:
https://towardsdatascience.com/measuring-success-in-the-nba-draft-a7f67cfb7718

of course we can argue about the assumptions and metrics that go into these measures. the above one is based on win shares of the pick vs players drafted after the person picked. this seems fairly reasonable though i could think of others. but to simply dismiss all such analyses and say "oh i know danny sucks at drafting because he picked olynyk over giannis" is pure lazy thinking that will not ever convince me of anything.


It seems more like Ainge built a good track record in his first 10 years or so, but has fallen off in his second 10. Yet, like a high profile College coach, is still living off his early day rep. Bottom line for me, regardless of success as a whole, I find it almost indefensible what Ainge has done since his "grand-slam" trade/drafting of Tatum.

It's like Ainge found the mother-lode of ammo (draft picks) and misfired on all targets.
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Re: Fire Ainge: Thanks Danny, but it's time to go 

Post#202 » by Spin Move » Sat Nov 28, 2020 1:45 am

BostonCouchGM wrote:
scottyno wrote:
Red2 wrote:Ray, Al and now Gordon . Danny lost them all by misjudging the market and playing hardball . He also failed to understand why those guys would leave . The Celts used to be the franchise that was loyal to its players . Now that franchise is Miami . No wonder Tyler Herro said he was happy the Heat ( and not Boston) took him . Bartlestein is a snake - Danny had to know he was playing with fire. There’s a pattern with Ainge and it has cost us a lot over the past two years . I don’t see how you sugarcoat this . Hopefully we get the trade exception so that we can salvage something . Danny has done great when he drafts 1-6 but after that he’s a disaster. I hope this year is better than the prior years but Prichard sure seemed like a reach


Ainge 1st round picks outside the top 6, if I didn't miss any:

Home runs:
Rondo
Jefferson

Good/very good picks relative to draft spot:
Perkins
Allen
Bradley
Olynyk
Rozier

Mediocre picks:
West
Green
Sullinger

Busts
Banks
Giddens
Johnson
Melo
Hunter
Yabu
Zizic

Not counting anyone from 2018+ because they're too early to determine, but it's fair to at least say none of them look like busts so far. When you factor in that Yabu and ZIzic were hamstrung picks because they needed to draft stashes and that all these guys were mid to late 1sts, not even late lotto for the most part, that's hardly a disaster.


you forgot James Young in the 'Busts" category. Also, just because a player is decent and was decent for where he was taken, like Olynyk, does not mean that was a good pick, because both Giannis and Gobert were still on the board. So he doesn't belong in the 'Good' category. Nor does Allen lmao.

All things considered, given where players were picked and who was picked after that player:

Great:
Jefferson
Rondo

Good:
AB
Rozier

Mediocre:
Perkins
Allen
Green
Sullinger
West

Atrocious Fireable Offense:
Olynyk (year 1 of rebuild with Giannis and Gobert on the board)
Melo
Young
Giddens
Johnson
Yabusele
Zizic
Hunter

he also seemingly gets a pass for trading draft picks that have cost us players in both the first and 2nd rounds and his 2nd round failures are just hand-waved away. Not sure why

in case you're keeping score, this shows Danny is a terrible drafter. He's got other gifts, but drafting isn't one of them.[/quote


Yea...No Perk, Green West and Allen were all good picks especially given their respective slots, you have completely unrealistic expecations for draft picks, the vast majority of players not picked in the top 5 don't become all stars. In the 20's most players don;t do anyhting in the NBA, in the teens at most most players become rotation players. So every GM who drafted before us and didin't pick Gianiss into the teens should be fired as well, same with gobert? This is just a really bad take. Yabu and James young are the only bad misses per draft slot. and guess what all GM's miss sometime....who do you think would do a better job then ainge? He has objectivly done a very good job drafting.
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Re: Fire Ainge: Thanks Danny, but it's time to go 

Post#203 » by ParticleMan » Sat Nov 28, 2020 7:58 am

playa-hater wrote:
ParticleMan wrote:the only proper way to evaluate ainge and the C's FO is with respect to other teams (all of whom also have scouting depts). if there's a GM who has, with every single draft pick, always picked the player that turned out to be the best available, then i will accept these sort of "oh but danny missed on XXX" criticisms. hint: there's no such GM.

otherwise, you have to evaluate things statistically, based on metrics that are APPLIED TO ALL TEAMS. not just one standard for danny ainge, and another standard for every other GM.

when you do that sort of analysis, ainge typically comes out as one of the top or at least better drafters in the league. here's a recent example, which puts ainge as the #2 GM in drafting ability over the last 10 years, just edged out by Denver's Tim Connelly:
https://towardsdatascience.com/measuring-success-in-the-nba-draft-a7f67cfb7718

of course we can argue about the assumptions and metrics that go into these measures. the above one is based on win shares of the pick vs players drafted after the person picked. this seems fairly reasonable though i could think of others. but to simply dismiss all such analyses and say "oh i know danny sucks at drafting because he picked olynyk over giannis" is pure lazy thinking that will not ever convince me of anything.


It seems more like Ainge built a good track record in his first 10 years or so, but has fallen off in his second 10. Yet, like a high profile College coach, is still living off his early day rep. Bottom line for me, regardless of success as a whole, I find it almost indefensible what Ainge has done since his "grand-slam" trade/drafting of Tatum.

It's like Ainge found the mother-lode of ammo (draft picks) and misfired on all targets.


just to be clear, that analysis was based on the last 10 years. my sense is he was actually worse in the first 10. i'm not sure we can really judge the stuff post-tatum as of yet, hasn't really been enough time.

your argument sounds a lot like "if we ignore any of ainge's good draft picks, then ainge is a terrible drafter!" right, then.

the fact is ainge has had 3 high picks in recent years, and by any reasonable measure he has hit on them all -- 3 starters on an ECF team, one looking like a future superstar. that's not easy. look around the L and look at other teams in that position, where are they? the bulls famously had like 8 high picks in 6 years post-MJ and barely sniffed the playoffs. more recently the t-wolves, cavs... where are they now? bottom-feeders despite having even higher picks. i could care less about late 1st and 2nds if you are going to blow franchise-defining high lotto picks. recently ainge has done well with his franchise-defining picks, and the direct consequence is that we're in the hunt for a championship this year.
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Re: Fire Ainge: Thanks Danny, but it's time to go 

Post#204 » by jmr07019 » Sat Nov 28, 2020 1:30 pm

The fire Ainge crowd will hate this but you are defined by your hits not your misses. Smart, Brown and Tatum are the core of our perennially playoff team. All drafted by Ainge. /end silly thread
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Re: Fire Ainge: Thanks Danny, but it's time to go 

Post#205 » by Fencer reregistered » Sat Nov 28, 2020 2:47 pm

If we look at teams who have done well using their high picks over the past decade or whatever, is there anybody in the discussion for best other than OKC, GS, and Boston?

Philly is a contender for 4th place on the list, but no higher.

Dallas also contends for a high mark because they not only snagged Luka but traded up for him, and he's that good.
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Re: Fire Ainge: Thanks Danny, but it's time to go 

Post#206 » by Stadium5 » Sat Nov 28, 2020 3:15 pm

Ainge apologists are embarrassing to this board. So predictable and worship the ground he walks on everytime. They apply no public pressure to him at all so there's no urgency what so ever

Best believe if he did the deal with Indy they'd be praising him as a genius.
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Re: Fire Ainge: Thanks Danny, but it's time to go 

Post#207 » by Afam » Sat Nov 28, 2020 3:43 pm

Welcome back Stadium. How are things ?
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Re: Fire Ainge: Thanks Danny, but it's time to go 

Post#208 » by Stadium5 » Sat Nov 28, 2020 4:27 pm

Afam wrote:Welcome back Stadium. How are things ?

I have covid so it could be going better. Hope you had a nice holiday my dude
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Re: Fire Ainge: Thanks Danny, but it's time to go 

Post#209 » by GoGreen » Sat Nov 28, 2020 7:11 pm

playa-hater wrote:
ParticleMan wrote:the only proper way to evaluate ainge and the C's FO is with respect to other teams (all of whom also have scouting depts). if there's a GM who has, with every single draft pick, always picked the player that turned out to be the best available, then i will accept these sort of "oh but danny missed on XXX" criticisms. hint: there's no such GM.

otherwise, you have to evaluate things statistically, based on metrics that are APPLIED TO ALL TEAMS. not just one standard for danny ainge, and another standard for every other GM.

when you do that sort of analysis, ainge typically comes out as one of the top or at least better drafters in the league. here's a recent example, which puts ainge as the #2 GM in drafting ability over the last 10 years, just edged out by Denver's Tim Connelly:
https://towardsdatascience.com/measuring-success-in-the-nba-draft-a7f67cfb7718

of course we can argue about the assumptions and metrics that go into these measures. the above one is based on win shares of the pick vs players drafted after the person picked. this seems fairly reasonable though i could think of others. but to simply dismiss all such analyses and say "oh i know danny sucks at drafting because he picked olynyk over giannis" is pure lazy thinking that will not ever convince me of anything.


It seems more like Ainge built a good track record in his first 10 years or so, but has fallen off in his second 10. Yet, like a high profile College coach, is still living off his early day rep. Bottom line for me, regardless of success as a whole, I find it almost indefensible what Ainge has done since his "grand-slam" trade/drafting of Tatum.

It's like Ainge found the mother-lode of ammo (draft picks) and misfired on all targets.


Funny, I think his first, like 7 years or so were not good. The KG trade saved his *** and truth be told he was negotiating with his buddy on that one.

However the hiring of Brad, BRK trade, Tatum trade, IT trade, Brown pick, Smart pick; all great moves. Problem is he's done a BAD job with his mid to late 1st rounders Not to mention trading for Kyrie and giving up that BRK pick and IT. I did not like that trade then & I know many others didn't either. We tend to forget that.

Sucks to say but since the Ky trade Ainge has really been poor managing this roster imo. That **** hurt us. Could've had a quality player at #8, but instead he goes with a guard who everyone felt was overrated to "win now."
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Re: Fire Ainge: Thanks Danny, but it's time to go 

Post#210 » by BK_2020 » Sat Nov 28, 2020 7:32 pm

Trading a 1st, IT, Zizic and Crowder for Kyrie is not a bad trade. It’s highway robbery in our favor.
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Re: Fire Ainge: Thanks Danny, but it's time to go 

Post#211 » by Fencer reregistered » Sat Nov 28, 2020 8:17 pm

BK_2020 wrote:Trading a 1st, IT, Zizic and Crowder for Kyrie is not a bad trade. It’s highway robbery in our favor.


Given IT's injury, it's a risk that had to be taken.

Anyhow, Ainge spoiled us with his success with later picks early in his tenure. Tatum, Brown and Smart were highly successful picks. Olynyk is controversial because strategically he should have gambled on Giannis there, and the fact that he didn't seriously consider it suggests a scouting failure, which matches to a top down view that he was probably a bit late building out international scouting. Rozier was a success. Picks later than Terry, however, didn't go well for a stretch of time.

And while I'm in the camp that thinks last year's draft was pretty successful, the truth is we don't know yet either way.
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Re: Fire Ainge: Thanks Danny, but it's time to go 

Post#212 » by SMTBSI » Sat Nov 28, 2020 8:52 pm

Fencer reregistered wrote:
BK_2020 wrote:Trading a 1st, IT, Zizic and Crowder for Kyrie is not a bad trade. It’s highway robbery in our favor.


Given IT's injury, it's a risk that had to be taken.

Anyhow, Ainge spoiled us with his success with later picks early in his tenure. Tatum, Brown and Smart were highly successful picks. Olynyk is controversial because strategically he should have gambled on Giannis there, and the fact that he didn't seriously consider it suggests a scouting failure, which matches to a top down view that he was probably a bit late building out international scouting. Rozier was a success. Picks later than Terry, however, didn't go well for a stretch of time.

And while I'm in the camp that thinks last year's draft was pretty successful, the truth is we don't know yet either way.

I think we as fans pull signal from the noise a lot of the time. The sample sizes are smaller than we realize.

I know Ainge has made 52 picks in his tenure here, and that sounds like a ton, but when asking questions like, "How has he done with non-premium 1sts", the numbers get smaller, and I'm not sure a hot streak or a dry spell of a couple years says as much as we think it does.

Ainge hit on several of these early in his tenure - Jefferson, Rondo, Perkins, Bradley, Sullinger, Tony Allen, and Gerald Green, whatever flaws they had, were all fair or good value at their slots. But he missed on a couple too in that timeframe - JJJ and Giddens.

Then, he whiffed several - Hunter, Young, Zizic, Melo, Yabs. But Rozier and Olynyk were both average for their slots in that timeframe.

So, what's the actual storyline here? Did he genuinely morph from a good drafter to a bad one? Or are these numbers small enough that a streak of a few hits or misses in a row is just not that weird?

How much does it matter for their development that many of the early picks were being added to a top contender, and many of the later ones to a rebuilding team? Is it better for a young player to be surrounded by a framework of stable vets and not asked to do too much, or to be thrown into the fire and allowed to experiment and make mistakes? High-end talent might benefit more from room to run, where lesser prospects might benefit more from supportive frameworks. But I can see the answer being different for every single player.

How much of a difference does playing for Doc vs playing for Stevens make? There sure seems to be some correlation here, but again, Small Sample Size Theater. Does Stevens for some reason have a different approach to his non-premium rookies than Doc did? Did Doc just have no choice but to utilize them on an all-in, resource-strapped team, and Stevens is freezing them out for vets in his attempt to win ahead of schedule?
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Re: Fire Ainge: Thanks Danny, but it's time to go 

Post#213 » by Fencer reregistered » Sat Nov 28, 2020 9:17 pm

By the way, I can think of only one All-Star that Red Auerbach ever drafted later than Ainge picked Rondo ... and that's a guy who slipped in the NBA draft because of his iintention to play another sport. :)

Similarly, I can think of only one All-NBA player Red drafted later than Ainge drafted Jefferson, none drafted later than Ainge drafted Rondo, and no All-Defensive players Red drafted later than Ainge drafted Rondo or Bradley.

Am I forgetting anybody?
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Re: Fire Ainge: Thanks Danny, but it's time to go 

Post#214 » by Fencer reregistered » Sat Nov 28, 2020 9:24 pm

Note: The previous post got edited a little when I checked Cliff Hagan, and saw that he went 21st overall, just as Rondo did.
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Re: Fire Ainge: Thanks Danny, but it's time to go 

Post#215 » by Captain_Caveman » Sat Nov 28, 2020 10:09 pm

In addition to having the best track record with trades and doing pretty well in free agency, Celts have been top 5 in the league both in drafting and in developing players during Ainge's tenure. They are also elite in creatively managing the salary cap.

People like to complain to try to make themselves look smart, and sometimes, to take their lives out on the board, but I haven't read any takes that remotely warrant Ainge being fired. In fact, it's a deeply stupid take, to put it mildly.
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Re: Fire Ainge: Thanks Danny, but it's time to go 

Post#216 » by hugepatsfan » Sat Nov 28, 2020 10:14 pm

Danny hasn’t really made too many HOME RUN picks. Just Rondo really and Al Jeff I guess. But at the same time, I think he’s done generally well. Many, many players I look back and say “wow that’s a better player than you normally expect with pick #x”.

Obviously I’d love if he made a franchise altering pick like Giannis, Kawhi, Jimmy B, Draymond outside of the lottery. Of course that’s always the most ideal scenario. But they’re few and far between. Guys like Tony Allen, Kendrick Perkins, etc aren’t that type of pick but they’re still great picks for where they went.

I can really only criticize too far for not drafting one of those generational type steals. However, he’s still been a GM almost 20 years now so I do think it’s fair for him to be critical of himself and his scouting department as to why they haven’t made those picks. Critically look at the process they evaluate players by and see if it needs updates.

These 3 recent drafts will be very important. We have a whole 5 man unit of recent 1st rounders in Pritchard/ Langford / Nesmith / G Williams / R Williams. The health of Kemba and the development of Tatum/Brown will ultimately determine the ceiling of this team, but they’ll need those picks to pan out to reach the high end of that ceiling. Either through their own contributions to the team or their trade value, we need results. They don’t all need to pan out or become those generational steals but we need them to play well, even if it’s just the Bradley/Tony Allen/Perkins/Olynyk/etc type of picks that may not be stars but brought good value for where they were picked.
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Re: Fire Ainge: Thanks Danny, but it's time to go 

Post#217 » by Patsfan1081 » Sat Nov 28, 2020 11:48 pm

Fencer reregistered wrote:By the way, I can think of only one All-Star that Red Auerbach ever drafted later than Ainge picked Rondo ... and that's a guy who slipped in the NBA draft because of his iintention to play another sport. :)

Similarly, I can think of only one All-NBA player Red drafted later than Ainge drafted Jefferson, none drafted later than Ainge drafted Rondo, and no All-Defensive players Red drafted later than Ainge drafted Rondo or Bradley.

Am I forgetting anybody?


It’s before my time so it’s hard to say but didn’t Red draft Ainge? I’m sure he wasn’t a lottery pick. I’m def not saying Ainge should be fired but put all stats aside, he’s had trouble finding rotational players outside of the lottery. Def need something out of Langford/Nesmith.
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Re: Fire Ainge: Thanks Danny, but it's time to go 

Post#218 » by Captain_Caveman » Sun Nov 29, 2020 12:29 am

Patsfan1081 wrote:
Fencer reregistered wrote:By the way, I can think of only one All-Star that Red Auerbach ever drafted later than Ainge picked Rondo ... and that's a guy who slipped in the NBA draft because of his iintention to play another sport. :)

Similarly, I can think of only one All-NBA player Red drafted later than Ainge drafted Jefferson, none drafted later than Ainge drafted Rondo, and no All-Defensive players Red drafted later than Ainge drafted Rondo or Bradley.

Am I forgetting anybody?


It’s before my time so it’s hard to say but didn’t Red draft Ainge? I’m sure he wasn’t a lottery pick. I’m def not saying Ainge should be fired but put all stats aside, he’s had trouble finding rotational players outside of the lottery. Def need something out of Langford/Nesmith.


Rotational players he's acquired with non-lottery picks:
Rondo, IT*, Bradley, Jefferson, TA, Olynyk**, Rozier, Big Baby, Grant Williams, Sullinger, Powe, Gerald Green, Delonte, Semi, Gomes, E'Twaun Moore, Perkins***.

Jury still out: Robert Williams, Abdel Nader, Zizic, Pritchard, Edwards, Waters. Would include Langford and Nesmith, but both were technically lottery picks. Ainge also had a draft promise out to Amir Johnson that he had to rescind due to getting leveraged by Orien Greene's agent (I believe it was Jeff Schwartz, who also repped Pierce and Perkins).

* via trade
** drafted lottery, after trade with no lottery picks given up
*** Technically drafted by Wallace
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Re: Fire Ainge: Thanks Danny, but it's time to go 

Post#219 » by Fencer reregistered » Sun Nov 29, 2020 12:33 am

Patsfan1081 wrote:
Fencer reregistered wrote:By the way, I can think of only one All-Star that Red Auerbach ever drafted later than Ainge picked Rondo ... and that's a guy who slipped in the NBA draft because of his iintention to play another sport. :)

Similarly, I can think of only one All-NBA player Red drafted later than Ainge drafted Jefferson, none drafted later than Ainge drafted Rondo, and no All-Defensive players Red drafted later than Ainge drafted Rondo or Bradley.

Am I forgetting anybody?


It’s before my time so it’s hard to say but didn’t Red draft Ainge? I’m sure he wasn’t a lottery pick. I’m def not saying Ainge should be fired but put all stats aside, he’s had trouble finding rotational players outside of the lottery. Def need something out of Langford/Nesmith.


I mentioned Ainge in the first sentence of your quote from my post. I just didn't mention him by NAME. :) Red got him in the second round because Ainge resolved to try baseball over basketball. Fortunately for us, he couldn't hit a curveball, and the rest is NBA history.
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Re: Fire Ainge: Thanks Danny, but it's time to go 

Post#220 » by Fencer reregistered » Sun Nov 29, 2020 12:34 am

Captain_Caveman wrote:
Patsfan1081 wrote:
Fencer reregistered wrote:By the way, I can think of only one All-Star that Red Auerbach ever drafted later than Ainge picked Rondo ... and that's a guy who slipped in the NBA draft because of his iintention to play another sport. :)

Similarly, I can think of only one All-NBA player Red drafted later than Ainge drafted Jefferson, none drafted later than Ainge drafted Rondo, and no All-Defensive players Red drafted later than Ainge drafted Rondo or Bradley.

Am I forgetting anybody?


It’s before my time so it’s hard to say but didn’t Red draft Ainge? I’m sure he wasn’t a lottery pick. I’m def not saying Ainge should be fired but put all stats aside, he’s had trouble finding rotational players outside of the lottery. Def need something out of Langford/Nesmith.


Rotational players he's acquired with non-lottery picks:
Rondo, IT*, Bradley, Jefferson, TA, Olynyk**, Rozier, Big Baby, Grant Williams, Sullinger, Powe, Gerald Green, Delonte, Semi, Gomes, E'Twaun Moore, Perkins***.

Jury still out: Robert Williams, Abdel Nader, Zizic, Pritchard, Edwards, Waters. Would include Langford and Nesmith, but both were technically lottery picks. Ainge also had a draft promise out to Amir Johnson that he had to rescind due to getting leveraged by Orien Greene's agent (I believe it was Jeff Schwartz, who also repped Pierce and Perkins).

* via trade
** drafted lottery, after trade with no lottery picks given up
** Technically drafted by Wallace


I thought the story was he had the promise out to Greene and hence couldn't pick Johnson when he slipped.
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