Cavaliers 2020 Draft Discussion.

[Stillwater]

I have no problem with either Garland or Sexton getting heavy minutes off the bench. But some holes are too deep to climb out of and that impacts the overall team. None of what Sexton does compliments what Garland does. Very little of what Garland does compliments Sexton. Their liabilities only exacerbate one another. Even with both of them reaching their defensive ceilings, the team you'd have to build around them just to be competitive on the defensive end wouldn't be very good overall.

Moreover, basketball that is so bad that no possession really matters isn't good development IMO. I really like KPJ and thought he was a bit of a silver lining last season. That said, the low point for me was him flexing after a dunk against when Philly when the team was down by 30 points. It reminded me of the Ricky Davis led teams pre-LBJ. Team culture can be an oversold concept, but in the extremes, it matters quite a bit.

They have not complimented each other on the court, but they most certainly do have complimentary offensive skills.

You and Still have basically called the future situation based on what happened last season, whereas I'm happy to see where they're at this season under a new coach with a bunch of time off, giving them a fair shake, and evaluating the alternatives before deciding what to do.

We have some interesting pieces, but IMO, if we start Sexton without Garland we have to pair him with Delly. Exum would be worth considering, but I'm not convinced he knows how to run an offense. If we start Garland without Sexton, we probably have to pair him with Okoro, and he's just an unknown at this point.

KPJ is an interesting talent worth developing if he doesn't end up in jail, but I'm not convinced he compliments either of our guards thanks to his Harden-esque skill set. That too needs re-evaluating. Plus he actually played very few positive minutes with the exception of our bench bunch before Clarkson was dealt.

So unless we're going to flush out the kids and play vets (who the heck wants that?) in my book, we just have a lot of question marks all around that can only be sorted out over time.

With respect to starting the two of them together last season and the possibility it can better, in my estimation the amount it would have to get better by, just in order to get to a replacement level backcourt, is astronomical. I remember SVG was covering the Cavs v. Thunder blowout before the trade deadline in LBJ's last year here and he said *some of this bad defense is effort, but not all of it.* The Cavs then offloaded Rose, IT, Frye, Wade, Shump, Crowder, et. al. At some point, you have to ask yourself what best case scenario is, with the personnel you're putting out there, and whether you can continue to play that personnel together.

One of the reasons I'm so convinced of this is that neither Garland nor Sexton looked anywhere near THAT bad when they played separately.

In terms of whether Sexton can run an offense as a starter, if the answer is no, then it's no. In that case, Sexton is only starting on a team that has Lonzo Ball, Ben Simmons, Durant, LBJ, or someone like that. Go trade for Ball, move Sexton to the bench, or trade him if you're worried about him bucking. Maybe even give Okoro a shot at running an offense. But if starting Sexton means you have to start Delly, in year three of the rebuild, then Sexton can't start. FWIW, I'm not 100% sure Sexton can't run an offense. It looked like maybe it starting clicking for him in the last ten games or so.

In terms of flushing out the kids, no one is saying that. But there's a pretty big distinction between just gifting young guys minutes and burying them on the bench. On teams like the Celtics, Heat and Spurs, their young guys have expectations beyond shoot because it fills good placed upon them along with those minutes. If they meet those expectation, then they're rewarded with additional opportunity and an expanded role. If they don't, then they're not. I don't think it's coincidence that those organizations manage to get the most out of their prospects.

Those orgs dont bring their lottery picks off the bench though for the most part is role players taken later unless they are already a contending or near contending starting roster and the pick was gifted to them via trades or something than those higher picked players have to earn the minutes just like Langford never seeing the floor to speak of in Boston.
I dont think it is wrong to assume the Cavs front office fully hopes both young guards to be significant factors going forward in the nba ( I dont agree with that necessarily given DG has a lot to prove that he even belongs on a roster let alone start)but only Sexton has shown he has a future in the league regardless of starting or playing a bench role but I think they would have to be pretty narrow minded to think the pairing is optimal to two way basketball. I personally think they picked Okoro to play with Sexton because he can stay with him in the open court and is a freak athlete. I also think KPJ could prove to be the best option bringing the ball up I mean I dont see how DG is considered better at this point and so until Garland shows us something better he is the odd man out unless they are so committed to playing all the young lottery prospects together which is possible but shouldnt be the case if they really want to win some games.
My gut tells me they start DG over Sexton if they have to chose and the man will either step up and earn it or he will fade into the shadows and bust out.
Personally would start Sexton and let DG slowly develop but I dont think thats what will happen

[jbk1234]

I posted the young players Portland was stocking up when Harry Giles signed with them.I put down Anfernee Simons and he was put down compared to Sexton and Garland and I thought how many minutes would Sexton and Garland get on Portlands team. Sexton maybe 20 minutes and would Garland even get any minutes. Give Simons Sextons minutes ,33 mpg and what would he put up.
In Cleveland you dont have to earn minutes and playing on the worst team you're not learning any winning basketball.The term Sexton and Garland and Windler need minutes doesnt mean they earned minutes.

I wanted Giles, but the Kings, one of the worst teams in the league, didn't even tender him a Q.O. It's not clear that he's better than the average guy out of the D League. It's a flyer based on unrealized potential.

Last year was supposed to be the break out season for Anfernee Simons. He averaged 20 mpg, played in all 70 games, and even started four games. It did not go as hoped. He shot poorly, averaged only 1.4 assists, and his defensive numbers were bad, as were his advanced numbers.

The only guys on a rookie contracts who would draw interest from other teams are Zach Collins, and to a lesser extent, Gary Trent. Collins is in the last year of his rookie deal and can't stay on the court because he's constantly injured. Gary Trent is cap friendly role player for this year and this year alone.

The best young player on the roster D. Jones Jr. and they just signed him away from the Heat for the full MLE. Oshley finally wised up and traded picks this year for Covington because he's been unable to do much with the ones he used.

[jbk1234]

They have not complimented each other on the court, but they most certainly do have complimentary offensive skills.

You and Still have basically called the future situation based on what happened last season, whereas I'm happy to see where they're at this season under a new coach with a bunch of time off, giving them a fair shake, and evaluating the alternatives before deciding what to do.

We have some interesting pieces, but IMO, if we start Sexton without Garland we have to pair him with Delly. Exum would be worth considering, but I'm not convinced he knows how to run an offense. If we start Garland without Sexton, we probably have to pair him with Okoro, and he's just an unknown at this point.

KPJ is an interesting talent worth developing if he doesn't end up in jail, but I'm not convinced he compliments either of our guards thanks to his Harden-esque skill set. That too needs re-evaluating. Plus he actually played very few positive minutes with the exception of our bench bunch before Clarkson was dealt.

So unless we're going to flush out the kids and play vets (who the heck wants that?) in my book, we just have a lot of question marks all around that can only be sorted out over time.

With respect to starting the two of them together last season and the possibility it can better, in my estimation the amount it would have to get better by, just in order to get to a replacement level backcourt, is astronomical. I remember SVG was covering the Cavs v. Thunder blowout before the trade deadline in LBJ's last year here and he said *some of this bad defense is effort, but not all of it.* The Cavs then offloaded Rose, IT, Frye, Wade, Shump, Crowder, et. al. At some point, you have to ask yourself what best case scenario is, with the personnel you're putting out there, and whether you can continue to play that personnel together.

One of the reasons I'm so convinced of this is that neither Garland nor Sexton looked anywhere near THAT bad when they played separately.

In terms of whether Sexton can run an offense as a starter, if the answer is no, then it's no. In that case, Sexton is only starting on a team that has Lonzo Ball, Ben Simmons, Durant, LBJ, or someone like that. Go trade for Ball, move Sexton to the bench, or trade him if you're worried about him bucking. Maybe even give Okoro a shot at running an offense. But if starting Sexton means you have to start Delly, in year three of the rebuild, then Sexton can't start. FWIW, I'm not 100% sure Sexton can't run an offense. It looked like maybe it starting clicking for him in the last ten games or so.

In terms of flushing out the kids, no one is saying that. But there's a pretty big distinction between just gifting young guys minutes and burying them on the bench. On teams like the Celtics, Heat and Spurs, their young guys have expectations beyond shoot because it fills good placed upon them along with those minutes. If they meet those expectation, then they're rewarded with additional opportunity and an expanded role. If they don't, then they're not. I don't think it's coincidence that those organizations manage to get the most out of their prospects.

Those orgs dont bring their lottery picks off the bench though for the most part is role players taken later unless they are already a contending or near contending starting roster and the pick was gifted to them via trades or something than those higher picked players have to earn the minutes just like Langford never seeing the floor to speak of in Boston.
I dont think it is wrong to assume the Cavs front office fully hopes both young guards to be significant factors going forward in the nba ( I dont agree with that necessarily given DG has a lot to prove that he even belongs on a roster let alone start)but only Sexton has shown he has a future in the league regardless of starting or playing a bench role but I think they would have to be pretty narrow minded to think the pairing is optimal to two way basketball. I personally think they picked Okoro to play with Sexton because he can stay with him in the open court and is a freak athlete. I also think KPJ could prove to be the best option bringing the ball up I mean I dont see how DG is considered better at this point and so until Garland shows us something better he is the odd man out unless they are so committed to playing all the young lottery prospects together which is possible but shouldnt be the case if they really want to win some games.
My gut tells me they start DG over Sexton if they have to chose and the man will either step up and earn it or he will fade into the shadows and bust out.
Personally would start Sexton and let DG slowly develop but I dont think thats what will happen

Marcus Smart started in 38 games his rookie year Jaylon Brown started in 20. Tatum, who walked into the league ready, started in 80 games. In four years with the Celtics, Kelly Olynyk never started more than 20 games a season.

Bam started in 19 games his rookie year and 28 games in his second year. Tyler Herro started 8 games for the Heat in the regular season last year.

Before this year, the closest the Spurs came to a lottery pick in almost a decade was Lonnie Walker at No. 18. He's started twelve games in two seasons and averaged below 20mpg in both. The last guy picked in the lottery was Kawhi Leonard. He started 39 games his rookie season and averaged 24 mpg.

[Revenged25]

With respect to starting the two of them together last season and the possibility it can better, in my estimation the amount it would have to get better by, just in order to get to a replacement level backcourt, is astronomical. I remember SVG was covering the Cavs v. Thunder blowout before the trade deadline in LBJ's last year here and he said *some of this bad defense is effort, but not all of it.* The Cavs then offloaded Rose, IT, Frye, Wade, Shump, Crowder, et. al. At some point, you have to ask yourself what best case scenario is, with the personnel you're putting out there, and whether you can continue to play that personnel together.

One of the reasons I'm so convinced of this is that neither Garland nor Sexton looked anywhere near THAT bad when they played separately.

In terms of whether Sexton can run an offense as a starter, if the answer is no, then it's no. In that case, Sexton is only starting on a team that has Lonzo Ball, Ben Simmons, Durant, LBJ, or someone like that. Go trade for Ball, move Sexton to the bench, or trade him if you're worried about him bucking. Maybe even give Okoro a shot at running an offense. But if starting Sexton means you have to start Delly, in year three of the rebuild, then Sexton can't start. FWIW, I'm not 100% sure Sexton can't run an offense. It looked like maybe it starting clicking for him in the last ten games or so.

In terms of flushing out the kids, no one is saying that. But there's a pretty big distinction between just gifting young guys minutes and burying them on the bench. On teams like the Celtics, Heat and Spurs, their young guys have expectations beyond shoot because it fills good placed upon them along with those minutes. If they meet those expectation, then they're rewarded with additional opportunity and an expanded role. If they don't, then they're not. I don't think it's coincidence that those organizations manage to get the most out of their prospects.

If we thought we could resign Lonzo to a reasonable contract and he wouldn't throw a fit in Cleveland, I think he would be ideal in Cleveland whether Sexton could run the offense or not. I think his size, defense, and passing ability would come in handy regardless and it could allow for a lot of interesting line-ups and make them a little deeper overall as Garland/KPJ/Cedi/Nance/McGee would be a solid second unit.

[Stillwater]

With respect to starting the two of them together last season and the possibility it can better, in my estimation the amount it would have to get better by, just in order to get to a replacement level backcourt, is astronomical. I remember SVG was covering the Cavs v. Thunder blowout before the trade deadline in LBJ's last year here and he said *some of this bad defense is effort, but not all of it.* The Cavs then offloaded Rose, IT, Frye, Wade, Shump, Crowder, et. al. At some point, you have to ask yourself what best case scenario is, with the personnel you're putting out there, and whether you can continue to play that personnel together.

One of the reasons I'm so convinced of this is that neither Garland nor Sexton looked anywhere near THAT bad when they played separately.

In terms of whether Sexton can run an offense as a starter, if the answer is no, then it's no. In that case, Sexton is only starting on a team that has Lonzo Ball, Ben Simmons, Durant, LBJ, or someone like that. Go trade for Ball, move Sexton to the bench, or trade him if you're worried about him bucking. Maybe even give Okoro a shot at running an offense. But if starting Sexton means you have to start Delly, in year three of the rebuild, then Sexton can't start. FWIW, I'm not 100% sure Sexton can't run an offense. It looked like maybe it starting clicking for him in the last ten games or so.

In terms of flushing out the kids, no one is saying that. But there's a pretty big distinction between just gifting young guys minutes and burying them on the bench. On teams like the Celtics, Heat and Spurs, their young guys have expectations beyond shoot because it fills good placed upon them along with those minutes. If they meet those expectation, then they're rewarded with additional opportunity and an expanded role. If they don't, then they're not. I don't think it's coincidence that those organizations manage to get the most out of their prospects.

Those orgs dont bring their lottery picks off the bench though for the most part is role players taken later unless they are already a contending or near contending starting roster and the pick was gifted to them via trades or something than those higher picked players have to earn the minutes just like Langford never seeing the floor to speak of in Boston.
I dont think it is wrong to assume the Cavs front office fully hopes both young guards to be significant factors going forward in the nba ( I dont agree with that necessarily given DG has a lot to prove that he even belongs on a roster let alone start)but only Sexton has shown he has a future in the league regardless of starting or playing a bench role but I think they would have to be pretty narrow minded to think the pairing is optimal to two way basketball. I personally think they picked Okoro to play with Sexton because he can stay with him in the open court and is a freak athlete. I also think KPJ could prove to be the best option bringing the ball up I mean I dont see how DG is considered better at this point and so until Garland shows us something better he is the odd man out unless they are so committed to playing all the young lottery prospects together which is possible but shouldnt be the case if they really want to win some games.
My gut tells me they start DG over Sexton if they have to chose and the man will either step up and earn it or he will fade into the shadows and bust out.
Personally would start Sexton and let DG slowly develop but I dont think thats what will happen

Marcus Smart started in 38 games his rookie year Jaylon Brown started in 20. Tatum, who walked into the league ready, started in 80 games. In four years with the Celtics, Kelly Olynyk never started more than 20 games a season.

Bam started in 19 games his rookie year and 28 games in his second year. Tyler Herro started 8 games for the Heat in the regular season last year.

Before this year, the closest the Spurs came to a lottery pick in almost a decade was Lonnie Walker at No. 18. He's started twelve games in two seasons and averaged below 20mpg in both. The last guy picked in the lottery was Kawhi Leonard. He started 39 games his rookie season and averaged 24 mpg.

I get where you are going but how many minutes did those players get as non starters though compared to what they deserved per say. Smart was a terrible shooter early and definitely wasnt good offensively but he had a green light and played a lot of minutes early in his career maybe it started more his 2nd season idk. The idea that no good org plays rookies only suggests that good orgs are only orgs with currently solid rosters. You cant go full rebuild and be compared to teams trying to get out of the treadmill playing vets who are skill capped and watching a lot of younger higher potential prospects fail to develop or do it somewhere else.

[jbk1234]

Those orgs dont bring their lottery picks off the bench though for the most part is role players taken later unless they are already a contending or near contending starting roster and the pick was gifted to them via trades or something than those higher picked players have to earn the minutes just like Langford never seeing the floor to speak of in Boston.
I dont think it is wrong to assume the Cavs front office fully hopes both young guards to be significant factors going forward in the nba ( I dont agree with that necessarily given DG has a lot to prove that he even belongs on a roster let alone start)but only Sexton has shown he has a future in the league regardless of starting or playing a bench role but I think they would have to be pretty narrow minded to think the pairing is optimal to two way basketball. I personally think they picked Okoro to play with Sexton because he can stay with him in the open court and is a freak athlete. I also think KPJ could prove to be the best option bringing the ball up I mean I dont see how DG is considered better at this point and so until Garland shows us something better he is the odd man out unless they are so committed to playing all the young lottery prospects together which is possible but shouldnt be the case if they really want to win some games.
My gut tells me they start DG over Sexton if they have to chose and the man will either step up and earn it or he will fade into the shadows and bust out.
Personally would start Sexton and let DG slowly develop but I dont think thats what will happen

Marcus Smart started in 38 games his rookie year Jaylon Brown started in 20. Tatum, who walked into the league ready, started in 80 games. In four years with the Celtics, Kelly Olynyk never started more than 20 games a season.

Bam started in 19 games his rookie year and 28 games in his second year. Tyler Herro started 8 games for the Heat in the regular season last year.

Before this year, the closest the Spurs came to a lottery pick in almost a decade was Lonnie Walker at No. 18. He's started twelve games in two seasons and averaged below 20mpg in both. The last guy picked in the lottery was Kawhi Leonard. He started 39 games his rookie season and averaged 24 mpg.

I get where you are going but how many minutes did those players get as non starters though compared to what they deserved per say. Smart was a terrible shooter early and definitely wasnt good offensively but he had a green light and played a lot of minutes early in his career maybe it started more his 2nd season idk. The idea that no good org plays rookies only suggests that good orgs are only orgs with currently solid rosters. You cant go full rebuild and be compared to teams trying to get out of the treadmill playing vets who are skill capped and watching a lot of younger higher potential prospects fail to develop or do it somewhere else.

Save Tatum, all of the players I mentioned developed off the bench. We're debating the best way to develop young guys, not whether we should try to develop them.

[JonFromVA]

I have no problem with either Garland or Sexton getting heavy minutes off the bench. But some holes are too deep to climb out of and that impacts the overall team. None of what Sexton does compliments what Garland does. Very little of what Garland does compliments Sexton. Their liabilities only exacerbate one another. Even with both of them reaching their defensive ceilings, the team you'd have to build around them just to be competitive on the defensive end wouldn't be very good overall.

Moreover, basketball that is so bad that no possession really matters isn't good development IMO. I really like KPJ and thought he was a bit of a silver lining last season. That said, the low point for me was him flexing after a dunk against when Philly when the team was down by 30 points. It reminded me of the Ricky Davis led teams pre-LBJ. Team culture can be an oversold concept, but in the extremes, it matters quite a bit.

They have not complimented each other on the court, but they most certainly do have complimentary offensive skills.

You and Still have basically called the future situation based on what happened last season, whereas I'm happy to see where they're at this season under a new coach with a bunch of time off, giving them a fair shake, and evaluating the alternatives before deciding what to do.

We have some interesting pieces, but IMO, if we start Sexton without Garland we have to pair him with Delly. Exum would be worth considering, but I'm not convinced he knows how to run an offense. If we start Garland without Sexton, we probably have to pair him with Okoro, and he's just an unknown at this point.

KPJ is an interesting talent worth developing if he doesn't end up in jail, but I'm not convinced he compliments either of our guards thanks to his Harden-esque skill set. That too needs re-evaluating. Plus he actually played very few positive minutes with the exception of our bench bunch before Clarkson was dealt.

So unless we're going to flush out the kids and play vets (who the heck wants that?) in my book, we just have a lot of question marks all around that can only be sorted out over time.

With respect to starting the two of them together last season and the possibility it can better, in my estimation the amount it would have to get better by, just in order to get to a replacement level backcourt, is astronomical. I remember SVG was covering the Cavs v. Thunder blowout before the trade deadline in LBJ's last year here and he said *some of this bad defense is effort, but not all of it.* The Cavs then offloaded Rose, IT, Frye, Wade, Shump, Crowder, et. al. At some point, you have to ask yourself what best case scenario is, with the personnel you're putting out there, and whether you can continue to play that personnel together.

One of the reasons I'm so convinced of this is that neither Garland nor Sexton looked anywhere near THAT bad when they played separately.

In terms of whether Sexton can run an offense as a starter, if the answer is no, then it's no. In that case, Sexton is only starting on a team that has Lonzo Ball, Ben Simmons, Durant, LBJ, or someone like that. Go trade for Ball, move Sexton to the bench, or trade him if you're worried about him bucking. Maybe even give Okoro a shot at running an offense. But if starting Sexton means you have to start Delly, in year three of the rebuild, then Sexton can't start. FWIW, I'm not 100% sure Sexton can't run an offense. It looked like maybe it starting clicking for him in the last ten games or so.

In terms of flushing out the kids, no one is saying that. But there's a pretty big distinction between just gifting young guys minutes and burying them on the bench. On teams like the Celtics, Heat and Spurs, their young guys have expectations beyond shoot because it fills good placed upon them along with those minutes. If they meet those expectation, then they're rewarded with additional opportunity and an expanded role. If they don't, then they're not. I don't think it's coincidence that those organizations manage to get the most out of their prospects.

IMO, we just lack data. I have no issues with emphasizing the young players who are earning minutes and filling their role well, but at the moment nobody is. Because of our organizational dysfunction, we're once against starting a season off very close to ground zero.

All I'm saying is let's see where we're at, and who does or does not step up. JBB will hopefully have the freedom to play with the lineups, but it really doesn't hurt anything to start out the pre-season where we left off.

[Stillwater]

I actually would have been more inclined to think the done tanking theme was real if they'd taken Okongwu or Vassell but since they took the uber upside prospect its not our of the question all young players will get undeserved minutes to be coached in game not just to put the best line ups out there to win because the best lineups still wouldn't win lol.
Who t f know

[LivingLegend]

I actually would have been more inclined to think the done tanking theme was real if they'd taken Okongwu or Vassell but since they took the uber upside prospect its not our of the question all young players will get undeserved minutes to be coached in game not just to put the best line ups out there to win because the best lineups still wouldn't win lol.
Who t f know

p.u.n.c.t.u.a.t.i.o.n.

[Stillwater]

I actually would have been more inclined to think the done tanking theme was real if they'd taken Okongwu or Vassell but since they took the uber upside prospect its not our of the question all young players will get undeserved minutes to be coached in game not just to put the best line ups out there to win because the best lineups still wouldn't win lol
Who t f know

p.u.n.c.t.u.a.t.i.o.n.

Wood post a fee ante