Giannis Thread - 2 Time MVP - The Contract discussions

[SupremeHustle]

The great and wonderful Miami Heat reporter had something to say about that tweet...

Read on Twitter

She just seems like a loser and salty at this point lol.

I don't know why you guys keep giving her attention. It's exactly what she wants. She's probably gotten more views and attention in the last couple weeks alone because of this board and insecure Bucks fans than she has in the last couple years.

Who is she? First time seeing anything about her.

[BuckFan25226]

What am I missing? Why is she a salty loser? Who is she?

[Magic Giannison]

Who is she? First time seeing anything about her.

Some Miami reporter who fishing for attention with some "Giannis is coming to heat done deal " type of BS

ignore her

[LuessiT]

great post on the giannis part but i think you go to far with the impact of losing the picks. if in fact we have those 3 guys for the next 5 years the impact of TWO PICKS and two picks only... all back end of the first round.... then giving that up for jrue just isnt really a big deal. we will get way better players coming in on vet mins to fill out the roster than those two guys would project at.

i also think its important to remember we still have 2021, 2023, 2024, 2026. with giannis on the books the pick swap thing is irrelevent. we still have 4 picks out of 6 between now and 2027. if we are smart about how we deal if were forced to break it up we arent screwed. only giannis and jrue leaving for nothing screws us

Correct me if I'm wrong but doesnt Cleveland get our 21 pick?

We can't trade our 21 because we stupidly traded our 20 instead of picking for New Orleans.

Cleveland has our 22 unprotected, once again because our front office is **** stupid.

This is just wrong. The CBA doesn't care what happened in 2020. The stepien rule applies to future pivjs only.

[rilamann]

I see the Heat's back up plan if Giannis re-signs with us is to go after Beal. Would be hilarious if we signed Giannis and then traded Middleton for Beal.

[Magic Giannison]

I see the Heat's back up plan if Giannis re-signs with us is to go after Beal. Would be hilarious if we signed Giannis and then traded Middleton for Beal.

Apparently they wanted Beal but even that got blocked when Washington said that thy aren't trading him

[BigO]

Correct me if I'm wrong but doesnt Cleveland get our 21 pick?

We can't trade our 21 because we stupidly traded our 20 instead of picking for New Orleans.

Cleveland has our 22 unprotected, once again because our front office is **** stupid.

This is just wrong. The CBA doesn't care what happened in 2020. The stepien rule applies to future pivjs only.

Correct. The 2020 pick wasn't ours (indianas), so we could not trade the 2021 pick. And that's good news because the 2021 draft is supposed to be one of the best in several years.

And the criticism of Giannis is just plain silly. In my opinion, he shares none of the blame for what happened in the playoffs. Does anyone really think that it is Giannis who decides to continuously drive the lane?

The offense is totally Bud's creation. And he should bear 90% of the responsibility (the other 10% goes to Horst for surrounding him with Bledsoe and other non-shooters). He should have posted up Giannis and Brook much more, but he refuses to adapt to anything.

The defense and offense are all on Bud. Giannis follows orders and if the orders are to continue to do what you're doing, that's what he does. The only criticism of Giannis I can think of is that he should speak up more. He relies on Bud a lot and it's time he questions the lack of imagination of both the offense and defense.

[BucksRule18]

We can't trade our 21 because we stupidly traded our 20 instead of picking for New Orleans.

Cleveland has our 22 unprotected, once again because our front office is **** stupid.

This is just wrong. The CBA doesn't care what happened in 2020. The stepien rule applies to future pivjs only.

Correct. The 2020 pick wasn't ours (indianas), so we could not trade the 2021 pick. And that's good news because the 2021 draft is supposed to be one of the best in several years.

And the criticism of Giannis is just plain silly. In my opinion, he shares none of the blame for what happened in the playoffs. Does anyone really think that it is Giannis who decides to continuously drive the lane?

The offense is totally Bud's creation. And he should bear 90% of the responsibility (the other 10% goes to Horst for surrounding him with Bledsoe and other non-shooters). He should have posted up Giannis and Brook much more, but he refuses to adapt to anything.

The defense and offense are all on Bud. Giannis follows orders and if the orders are to continue to do what you're doing, that's what he does. The only criticism of Giannis I can think of is that he should speak up more. He relies on Bud a lot and it's time he questions the lack of imagination of both the offense and defense.

Yeah, I tend to agree. There's no excuse for a 60/70 win regular season team to lose 3 or 4 straight to the same team in the playoffs ,while the coach makes zero adjustments. Also, just because your 8-12 players help you win games in the regular season, doesn't mean you can replicate that in the playoffs.

[LuessiT]

We can't trade our 21 because we stupidly traded our 20 instead of picking for New Orleans.

Cleveland has our 22 unprotected, once again because our front office is **** stupid.

This is just wrong. The CBA doesn't care what happened in 2020. The stepien rule applies to future pivjs only.

Correct. The 2020 pick wasn't ours (indianas), so we could not trade the 2021 pick. And that's good news because the 2021 draft is supposed to be one of the best in several years.

That was not the actual reason.

Spoiler:

89. How are draft picks handled in trades? What is the Ted Stepien rule?

Draft picks (both first and second round) count $0 for salary matching purposes. This is true both before and after the draft, until the player signs a contract. This can make it very difficult to construct a trade that is equitable in both trade value and basketball value. For example, Vancouver selected Steve Francis with the #2 pick in the 1999 draft, and subsequently traded his draft rights to Houston. When the trade was finally engineered, it included three teams (Orlando was also involved), 11 players (including Francis) and two future draft picks.

Once the draft pick signs a contract, his actual salary becomes his trade value.

Note that even though a draft pick's trade value (for salary matching purposes) is $0, a first round pick is included in team salary at 120% of his scale amount once he is selected in the draft, until he signs a contract with the team holding his draft rights or with a non-NBA team (see question number 47) or agrees in writing not to sign an NBA contract that season (see question number 13). If an unsigned first round draft pick is traded, then 120% of his scale amount is included in the acquiring team's team salary as soon as the trade is completed. An unsigned second round pick does not count toward team salary.

The "Seven Year Rule" allows teams to trade draft picks up to seven drafts into the future (for example, if this is the 2017-18 season, then a 2024 pick can be traded, but a 2025 pick cannot). It is common to "protect" picks depending on their position (for example, "we keep it if it falls #1 through #14, otherwise you get it"), although no more than 55 picks in a single draft can be protected (for example, a top-55 protected pick is legal, but a top-56 protected pick is not). This helps to avoid a repeat of some unfortunate past trades, such as the 1980 trade between the Cavs and Lakers where LA received what turned out to be the first overall pick in the 1982 draft, which they used to select James Worthy. It is common for these protections to relax over several years. For example, a team might convey its own pick in the first draft in which it is not a protected pick, where a protected pick is defined as picks 1-14 in 2018; 1-10 in 2019; 1-6 in 2020; and unprotected in 2021. If the team's picks in 2018, 2019 or 2020 fall within the protected range, then they keep it; otherwise it is conveyed to the other team. If they make it to 2021 without having conveyed a pick, then the other team gets their 2021 pick unconditionally.

A team may protect its pick through all seven upcoming drafts. However, if a protected pick is not conveyed by the seventh draft, the obligation to convey a pick either must extinguish after the seventh draft, or convert to a permissible alternative (such as a second round pick).

Teams are restricted from trading away future first round draft picks in consecutive years. This is known as the "Ted Stepien Rule." Stepien owned the Cavs from 1980-83, and made a series of bad trades (such as the 1980 trade mentioned above) that cost the Cavs several years' first round picks. As a result of Stepien's ineptitude, teams are now prevented from making trades which might leave them without a first round pick in consecutive future years.

The Stepien rule applies only to future first round picks. For example, if this is the 2017-18 season, then a team can trade its 2018 first round pick without regard to whether they had traded their 2017 pick, since their 2017 pick is no longer a future pick. But they can't trade away both their 2018 and 2019 picks, since both are future picks. Teams sometimes work around this rule by trading first round picks in alternate years, or by giving one team the right to swap picks with the other.

When dealing with protected picks, the Stepien rule is interpreted to mean that a team can't trade a pick if there is any chance at all that it will leave the team without a first round pick in consecutive future drafts.

If a team trades two future first round picks and the first of those picks is protected, then that pick would be conveyed in the first draft in which the protection does not apply (as described above), and the second pick would be conveyed two years after the first pick is conveyed. But since both picks must be conveyed within seven years, the protection on the first pick cannot last longer than four years (i.e., the first pick must be conveyed by the fifth year).

A team can have up to two picks with this two-year waiting period in effect at any time. In order to have two such picks with subsequent conveyance, the protection on the first trade cannot last longer than two years (i.e., the first pick must be conveyed by the third year, so the first subsequent pick is conveyed by the fifth year, and the second subsequent pick is conveyed by the seventh year).

Other rules that pertain to trading draft picks:

Teams cannot trade future picks not already in their possession. For example, a team cannot make a trade in 2017 that conveys the lesser of any 2020 first round pick in its possession on the date of the 2020 draft, and subsequently acquire a pick to send.
A team can add protection to a pick it acquires in trade, as long as they received the pick as an unconditional pick. For example, Team A can receive an unprotected first round pick from Team B, and subsequently trade the pick to Team C, protected for picks 1-14. A team cannot add protections to a pick that already had protections when it was received. For example, Team A cannot receive a pick that is protected for picks 1-5 from Team B, and then add further protections when trading it to Team C. However, Team A could receive an unconditional pick from Team B, then trade it to Team C, protected for picks 1-14, and also to Team D, protected for picks 15-30 (i.e., Team D gets the pick if it's in the lottery, and Team C gets the pick if it isn't in the lottery).
Teams cannot subsequently acquire picks to change the "first allowable draft" per the Stepien rule. For example, suppose a team trades away two picks, with the first being a conditional pick and the second in the first allowable draft after the first pick is conveyed. If the first pick is conveyed in 2018, then the first allowable draft in which the second pick can be conveyed is 2020. If the team subsequently acquires a 2019 pick from another team (so it has two picks that year), the first allowable draft for the conveyance of the second pick remains 2020.
Any or all teams in a trade may be granted the one-time option to defer the conveyance or receipt of a pick for one year (only). For example, a trade between Miami and Orlando that includes Miami's 2019 first round draft pick might provide Miami with the option to defer the pick to 2020. In addition:
A team can exercise a pick deferment only once.
The conveyance of a pick can be deferred for only one year.
A protected pick (as described above) cannot be deferred.
The deferment is subject to the Seven Year Rule. A pick in the seventh year following a trade cannot be deferred.
Except for pick protection and the one-time option to defer the conveyance of a pick as described above, trades must specify the precise year in which a pick is to be conveyed.
The year of any alternative consideration must also be specified. For Example, if a traded first round pick is protected for picks 1-14 in 2018 and converts to two second round picks if it is not conveyed, the years of those second round picks must be specified.
A traded draft pick cannot have protection based on draft position and a one-time option to defer.
Teams are required to have only a first round pick, and not necessarily their own first round pick. Teams may trade away their own future picks in consecutive years if they already own another team's unconditional first round pick in one of those years. For example, if this is the 2017-18 season and a team has already traded away its 2019 first round pick, it cannot trade its 2018 pick. However, if it acquires another team's first round pick in either 2018 or 2019, its own 2018 pick can then be traded.
A team cannot sign its draft pick and immediately trade the player in a sign-and-trade arrangement (see question number 92).
A pick cannot be traded on the day of the draft before the pick is made.
Lottery picks cannot be traded from 6:00 PM on the day before the draft lottery until the lottery is complete.

In the spoiler is the long form, but the most important § is this:

When dealing with protected picks, the Stepien rule is interpreted to mean that a team can't trade a pick if there is any chance at all that it will leave the team without a first round pick in consecutive future drafts.

It doesn't matter if you hold your own draft pick or anoher team's pick (this is why pick swaps work in conjuction with trading your own pick every other year), you just need to have a draft pick in every other year. With our obligations to PHX & CLE and the obglitation from IND towards us all being protected it wasn't clear which pick we could trade without having no picks in consecutive drafts.
With the PHX & IND obligations extinguished we were left with the CLE pick outgoing (possibly conveying 2022-2024 iirc) which means picks from 2021 to 2025 were tied up. That's why changing the protection of the CLE pick to unprotected did let us follow through with the Holiday trade. It's now conveying in 2022, thus we can't trade picks in 2021 or 2023 because we can't have no first round pick in consecutive drafts. After making a selection in 2022 we're allowed to trade the 2023 pick again.
But all in all the stepien rule doesn't prohibit you from trading your pick every year. It just prohibits you from leaving your franchise with no picks.

[coolhandluke121]

great post on the giannis part but i think you go to far with the impact of losing the picks. if in fact we have those 3 guys for the next 5 years the impact of TWO PICKS and two picks only... all back end of the first round.... then giving that up for jrue just isnt really a big deal. we will get way better players coming in on vet mins to fill out the roster than those two guys would project at.

i also think its important to remember we still have 2021, 2023, 2024, 2026. with giannis on the books the pick swap thing is irrelevent. we still have 4 picks out of 6 between now and 2027. if we are smart about how we deal if were forced to break it up we arent screwed. only giannis and jrue leaving for nothing screws us

Khris is 29, Jrue is 30, and Brook is 32. Who do you expect to still be anywhere near as good as they are now in the last year of Giannis's deal, if he signs it? That's a frickin' LIFETIME from now by NBA standards. You can't dismiss those picks as late first-rounders like that. That's literally what EVERY SINGLE DAMN TEAM that made an irresponsible, impulsive trade like this said, and they almost always get burned - sometimes very badly. Even if Giannis re-signs, there's almost always an up-and-down cycle to being a contender, and 2025 (let alone '26 or '27) are well past the end of a normal window. They won't have jack for cap space and might even struggle to spend the MLE each season. You're dismissing the wrong picks. You say they still have the '21 and '23 picks but those are the ones that are likely to be garbage. The pick swaps could be a coup for NOP because they are young and have a chance to be a really good team by then, whereas the Bucks are likely to struggle to keep building good teams around Giannis that long unless he pulls a Dirk/Duncan and signs for much less than he's worth every few years.

I know there's uncertainty to the picks and they could be at the back end of the first round, but there also could literally be 4 top-5 picks in there too. It's too much risk for a guy one year away from being an overpaid 31-year-old who made just one ASG, and I actually like Jrue a lot. I think it's much more likely that those picks are pretty good than late first-rounders because that's just the normal cycle of a contender.

I think Giannis extends, but I think they end up looking at rebuilding in 3-4 years unless they get really lucky in the draft or make shrewd vets-for-youth trades without pissing him off.

[Fotis St]

Poor posts, very poor most of your last posts.

Not because of what a player you believe Giannis is but the way you speak is... judging him as a player is not enough for you , you judge his personality and the man he is, really poor .... if some here are "fanboys" then you clearly a "haterboy", as many as you said are not correct i'm not sure if i m too, you are a hater for sure but are you a boy or an old man?

You are from Greece too?

See, I was just like you guys. I become Bucks fan when Kukoc was traded to Bucks. I was Kukoc fan as he is from my country. Fanboy indeed. He could do no wrong for me.

But that was 17 years ago. I am now 44 years old and I understand how irritating I was back then.

Did you just said a couple posts before , that Giannis is not facing a Wall and he is just double teamed ?
I am almost certain that you haven't seen the whole games ...
I think you just started re-posting here more regular like a month ago or so
Not judging you or so but I think you are outdated. I clearly remember the Heat Team , I mean the whole 5 squad to place themselves 1 inch out of paint ... it was so ridiculous to see, call it wall , call it zone D , it reminded me of elementary basketball where a Future NBA Player was facing a whole team. The Heat didn't respect any of our players not named Giannis, and this is Bucks fault.
How , how , how in the NBA , the best League in the World , actually steps on court players that can't hit a wide open practice 3pt shot, or a corner 3 which is closest to the basket, that is actually a FIBA 3 ?
How ? The NBA should be like the Best 450 Players in the World.
This should not happen in this League. This is why , especially on a Giannis team , noone should see minutes next to him if he is not an above average 3pt shooter.

[DingleJerry]

All true, but you have to give up something for a good player. If Giannis/Jrue resign we're almost assured the price we pay won't be bad and likely in our favor. As you point out the far out ones could come back to burn us, but you have to give something. If they leave, you massively massively got taken to the cleaners. If they both stay, chances are we come out ahead barring some really bad luck. And also a very good chance we come out way way ahead if those far out ones remain late picks. You can't expect to not give them some kind of carrot in the trade. With us having next to no assets our only thing to give was a far out lottery ticket.

[GHOSTofSIKMA]

great post on the giannis part but i think you go to far with the impact of losing the picks. if in fact we have those 3 guys for the next 5 years the impact of TWO PICKS and two picks only... all back end of the first round.... then giving that up for jrue just isnt really a big deal. we will get way better players coming in on vet mins to fill out the roster than those two guys would project at.

i also think its important to remember we still have 2021, 2023, 2024, 2026. with giannis on the books the pick swap thing is irrelevent. we still have 4 picks out of 6 between now and 2027. if we are smart about how we deal if were forced to break it up we arent screwed. only giannis and jrue leaving for nothing screws us

Khris is 29, Jrue is 30, and Brook is 32. Who do you expect to still be anywhere near as good as they are now in the last year of Giannis's deal, if he signs it? That's a frickin' LIFETIME from now by NBA standards. You can't dismiss those picks as late first-rounders like that. That's literally what EVERY SINGLE DAMN TEAM that made an irresponsible, impulsive trade like this said, and they almost always get burned - sometimes very badly. Even if Giannis re-signs, there's almost always an up-and-down cycle to being a contender, and 2025 (let alone '26 or '27) are well past the end of a normal window. They won't have jack for cap space and might even struggle to spend the MLE each season. You're dismissing the wrong picks. You say they still have the '21 and '23 picks but those are the ones that are likely to be garbage. The pick swaps could be a coup for NOP because they are young and have a chance to be a really good team by then, whereas the Bucks are likely to struggle to keep building good teams around Giannis that long unless he pulls a Dirk/Duncan and signs for much less than he's worth every few years.

I know there's uncertainty to the picks and they could be at the back end of the first round, but there also could literally be 4 top-5 picks in there too. It's too much risk for a guy one year away from being an overpaid 31-year-old who made just one ASG, and I actually like Jrue a lot. I think it's much more likely that those picks are pretty good than late first-rounders because that's just the normal cycle of a contender.

I think Giannis extends, but I think they end up looking at rebuilding in 3-4 years unless they get really lucky in the draft or make shrewd vets-for-youth trades without pissing him off.

we still have 4 picks we can use to draft or even deal on draft nights. to gain a 5 year championship window you mortgage everything would be my plan. if we get a chip or two then we get the giannis twilight years the way the mavs did with dirk. out of contention but who cares giannis retires a buck

[buckboy]

Correct me if I'm wrong but doesnt Cleveland get our 21 pick?

We can't trade our 21 because we stupidly traded our 20 instead of picking for New Orleans.

Cleveland has our 22 unprotected, once again because our front office is **** stupid.

This is just wrong. The CBA doesn't care what happened in 2020. The stepien rule applies to future pivjs only.

If we had picked whoever New Orleans picked and then traded that guy, our '21 pick would've almost certainly conveyed, thus allowing us to have '22.

I assume we couldn't pick that guy and trade him because the salaries wouldn't have worked in the Holiday trade? If so, then you're right and I'm wrong.

I think you're interpreting the Stepien rule incorrectly. If we had picked for New Orleans, we would have used a 2020 pick (whether it's Indiana's or not is completely irrelevant for whoever said that). Therefore our 2021 pick would've conveyed (assuming we didn't finish with a top 7 pick).

Therefore we wouldn't have had to pay Cleveland a future 2nd for the honor of making our 2022 pick unprotected.

Therefore our front office is **** stupid. Again.

[fansinceforever]

The great and wonderful Miami Heat reporter had something to say about that tweet...

Read on Twitter

She just seems like a loser and salty at this point lol.

I don't know why you guys keep giving her attention. It's exactly what she wants. She's probably gotten more views and attention in the last couple weeks alone because of this board and insecure Bucks fans than she has in the last couple years.

Who is she? First time seeing anything about her.

She's nobody and should be treated as such.

[Sigra]

I am almost certain that you haven't seen the whole games ...
I think you just started re-posting here more regular like a month ago or so
Not judging you or so but I think you are outdated.

Actually, I am not working since March because of covid. At home all day all those months. We had all Bucks playoffs games on television and I could play them again over and over. I watched each of games at least 2 times (some 3 times). Because I have so much damn time. And 2nd time when I would watch I would focus 100% on Giannis and so call walls.

They defended him one on one mostly. Even double teams were rare honestly. His defender would just back down and stay between him and basket. Usually when you defend someone like that he would punish you with jumper because jumper option is so wide open. Giannis couldn't and that's why they could defend him like that.

Talking about Miami series only. Toronto 2 years ago made great wall and I was first to say that back then. And Giannis was much better in playoffs 2 years ago.

PS: the funny thing is how much I defend Giannis here in Bosnia when I argue with my friends. And you guys think that I hate him

[coolhandluke121]

we still have 4 picks we can use to draft or even deal on draft nights. to gain a 5 year championship window you mortgage everything would be my plan. if we get a chip or two then we get the giannis twilight years the way the mavs did with dirk. out of contention but who cares giannis retires a buck

I agree about going for it all and I'm not at all opposed to trading all those future picks. What I'm opposed to is getting poor value for them. Jrue is about to get a max contract at age 31 on the open market. Players like him always do. He's not even a repeat all-star, let alone an all-NBA player. It's a little unsettling to give a guy like that a max deal at the start of his prime, let alone at age 31. Think of Mike Conley Jr's deal and now imagine this past season was just the first year of that deal. Yikes. That's hard to stomach even when you didn't give up much of anything for him in a deal, let alone when you gave up 4 distant future unprotected picks/pick swaps.

I know I said "let alone" three times there and I don't even care. It's no time for elegant prose. It's piss and vinegar time. And again, nothing against trading the picks, but you have to get much better value for them than a borderline star at age 30 on an expiring deal. I firmly believe this made them much LESS likely to win a title because they could have probably traded Bledsoe, Wilson, and #24 for Bogdan and then they still have Hill + all those future picks to use in an opportunistic trade during the season - plus oh by the way, Bogdan is the guy Giannis wanted. Opportunities come up all the time if you're willing to sell that much future draft capital. The Bucks got played here. It's probably one of the dumbest moves I've ever seen one of my teams make, right up there with drafting Tony Mandarich, keeping Ryan Braun in 2016, and trading Ray Allen for Gary Payton. I sincerely hope you're right about those being late first-rounders.

What convinces Giannis Milwaukee is the place to be 4 years from now?

[coolhandluke121]

PS: the funny thing is how much I defend Giannis here in Bosnia when I argue with my friends. And you guys think that I hate him

There are some people who just can't be honest with themselves about certain players, and that causes them to label others biased haters because they can't see their own bias. Same thing happened with Jabari. Compare him to a bunch of second-rate offense-only former all-stars like Big Dog and Sczerbiak, which by the way is actually a very generous comparison, and you get labelled a hater because people are so invested in the narrative that he's a future superstar. Compare Giannis to a 7-foot Westbrook, who was also a young MVP with some of the very best statistical seasons of the last 30 years but questionable decision-making and perimeter play, and you need to watch your mouth because Giannis literally is a Greek god or something. It is what it is. Still love this place, and still love Giannis... but he played his part in the bubble collapse, no doubt.

[humanrefutation]

I do wonder if the Bucks made the Holiday move predicated on an assumption that Bogdan was already coming. Because they could have always shifted Bledsoe to Sacramento to match Bogdan's salary in a S&T, but they would have faced the risk that one of the other contenders in their conference adds Jrue instead - a factor that shouldn't be overlooked.

It's a tough call, but I have to think that Horst and company talked it over with Giannis to try to reach some sort of consensus on whether he'd rather have Bogdan knowing that Jrue would have ended up in Boston or Philly or somewhere like that, or whether he'd take Jrue instead.

[WRau1]

I do wonder if the Bucks made the Holiday move predicated on an assumption that Bogdan was already coming. Because they could have always shifted Bledsoe to Sacramento to match Bogdan's salary in a S&T, but they would have faced the risk that one of the other contenders in their conference adds Jrue instead - a factor that shouldn't be overlooked.

It's a tough call, but I have to think that Horst and company talked it over with Giannis to try to reach some sort of consensus on whether he'd rather have Bogdan knowing that Jrue would have ended up in Boston or Philly or somewhere like that, or whether he'd take Jrue instead.

NOP specifically wanted Bledsoe in the deal, shifting him to SAC wouldn't have worked.