2020 Preseason Speculation - Lineup battles underway

NTB · Post #3941 » by **NTB** » Thu Dec 3, 2020 5:56 am

SuperSunsFan · Post #3942 » by **SuperSunsFan** » Thu Dec 3, 2020 6:52 am

I really hope to see Cam payne penciled in as Paul's destined back up because of all the guards we have now he is the only one who is more a true point with legit play making ability and able to create his own shot, he was my favorite player in the bubble.

WeekapaugGroove · Post #3943 » by **WeekapaugGroove** » Thu Dec 3, 2020 7:25 am

lilfishi22 wrote:
WeekapaugGroove wrote:Wall hasn't played in basically 2 years, had chronic knee issues then tore his achilles. I don't think we can really predict how he's going to look going forward at all.

Honestly kind of feels like a trade just to make a trade with two unhappy dudes. I really don't see it changing the projections of either team all that much.

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I feel this but at the same time, I still feel like Houston just got worse, unless the plan is to get worse and tank (after trading Harden too).

I have no idea what to make of Houston, huge variance of possible outcomes this season. I just have no idea what Wall will give them. If the plan is to trade Harden I'd have just kept westbrook and let him ball out and built back some trade value.

After thinking about it I actually think Westbrook landed in a good spot for his game. They can run some lineups with enough shooting around him and Brooks knows how to coach him. Beal might not love playing with him though. Washington is probably terrible defensively but they were going to be that anyway.

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YouTube · Post #3944 » by **Kerrsed** » Thu Dec 3, 2020 7:57 am

thamadkant wrote:
A healthy Wall is a better fit next to Harden than Westbrook.

Wall can be used as a pure play making and facilitating PG, he doesnt need big men to box out for him or clear out the paint.... he is a more traditional PG than Westbrook. Someone who is OK to score 15 points a game but get 7-8 assists a night but offering that slasher when required.

But whens the last time anyone has seen a "Healthy Wall"??? Whats it been, like 5 seasons?

**EDIT: I just looked it up and it was 2016, so just 4 seasons....but still.

Revived · Post #3945 » by **Revived** » Thu Dec 3, 2020 9:43 am

Kerrsed wrote:
thamadkant wrote:
A healthy Wall is a better fit next to Harden than Westbrook.

Wall can be used as a pure play making and facilitating PG, he doesnt need big men to box out for him or clear out the paint.... he is a more traditional PG than Westbrook. Someone who is OK to score 15 points a game but get 7-8 assists a night but offering that slasher when required.

But whens the last time anyone has seen a "Healthy Wall"??? Whats it been, like 5 seasons?

**EDIT: I just looked it up and it was 2016, so just 4 seasons....but still.

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Even before his recent surge of injuries, he was nothing special and was already deteriorating.

Mr Puddles · Post #3946 » by **Mr Puddles** » Thu Dec 3, 2020 9:52 am

Kerrsed wrote:
thamadkant wrote:
A healthy Wall is a better fit next to Harden than Westbrook.

Wall can be used as a pure play making and facilitating PG, he doesnt need big men to box out for him or clear out the paint.... he is a more traditional PG than Westbrook. Someone who is OK to score 15 points a game but get 7-8 assists a night but offering that slasher when required.

But whens the last time anyone has seen a "Healthy Wall"??? Whats it been, like 5 seasons?

**EDIT: I just looked it up and it was 2016, so just 4 seasons....but still.

Honestly, Wall is also not a great fit. You need a guy who can play off the ball next to Harden.

I would have explored a trade with Detroit if I had been the Rockets GM. Westbrook for Griffen + this year's pick (Hayes or Haliburton). Then either flip the pick for PG that fits better or role the dice with a rookie PG. Griffin's contract is a year shorter and while he's not going to be worth his contract, he'll at least be a better fit as a stretch PF.

Mr Puddles · Post #3947 » by **Mr Puddles** » Thu Dec 3, 2020 9:54 am

SuperSunsFan wrote:I really hope to see Cam payne penciled in as Paul's destined back up because of all the guards we have now he is the only one who is more a true point with legit play making ability and able to create his own shot, he was my favorite player in the bubble.

I actually think our ofseason indicates that our front office (for better or worse) has faith in him. I'm not sure if Payne's bubble performance is an indicator of a strong season ahead, or if he's just a flash in the pan, but I do like that our front office seems to be rewarding guys who work hard and produce (I think Carter is another example of that).

Revived · Post #3948 » by **Revived** » Thu Dec 3, 2020 11:53 am

I’m okay with Carter being the backup PG and the 2nd unit running its offense through Saric.

I think he can be a point PF type player (like a poor man’s Jokic). He flashed that ability in the bubble especially when going up against other teams 2nd units as well.

King4Day · Post #3949 » by **King4Day** » Thu Dec 3, 2020 1:10 pm

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I'm a little surprised he didn't push for opt out options after year 3 as well. Just to keep the pressure on LA.
This at least keeps them out of the running for Giannis.

I know LA is great but I don't think they will be unbeatable. A healthy Miami could have possibly taken them in the finals last season, and there are better teams in the league this season than the Heat.

NTB · Post #3950 » by **NTB** » Thu Dec 3, 2020 2:04 pm

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darmani · Post #3951 » by **darmani** » Thu Dec 3, 2020 2:52 pm

Kerrsed wrote:
thamadkant wrote:
A healthy Wall is a better fit next to Harden than Westbrook.

Wall can be used as a pure play making and facilitating PG, he doesnt need big men to box out for him or clear out the paint.... he is a more traditional PG than Westbrook. Someone who is OK to score 15 points a game but get 7-8 assists a night but offering that slasher when required.

But whens the last time anyone has seen a "Healthy Wall"??? Whats it been, like 5 seasons?

**EDIT: I just looked it up and it was 2016, so just 4 seasons....but still.

https://www.reddit.com/r/washingtonwizards/comments/a7ussy/game_summary/

NTB · Post #3952 » by **NTB** » Thu Dec 3, 2020 4:20 pm

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thamadkant · Post #3953 » by **thamadkant** » Thu Dec 3, 2020 5:24 pm

Kerrsed wrote:
thamadkant wrote:
A healthy Wall is a better fit next to Harden than Westbrook.

Wall can be used as a pure play making and facilitating PG, he doesnt need big men to box out for him or clear out the paint.... he is a more traditional PG than Westbrook. Someone who is OK to score 15 points a game but get 7-8 assists a night but offering that slasher when required.

But whens the last time anyone has seen a "Healthy Wall"??? Whats it been, like 5 seasons?

**EDIT: I just looked it up and it was 2016, so just 4 seasons....but still.

Hence why the opening line in my post stated healthy... Because Wall is an all star barring injuries.

thamadkant · Post #3954 » by **thamadkant** » Thu Dec 3, 2020 5:28 pm

Mr Puddles wrote:
Kerrsed wrote:
thamadkant wrote:
A healthy Wall is a better fit next to Harden than Westbrook.

Wall can be used as a pure play making and facilitating PG, he doesnt need big men to box out for him or clear out the paint.... he is a more traditional PG than Westbrook. Someone who is OK to score 15 points a game but get 7-8 assists a night but offering that slasher when required.

But whens the last time anyone has seen a "Healthy Wall"??? Whats it been, like 5 seasons?

**EDIT: I just looked it up and it was 2016, so just 4 seasons....but still.

Honestly, Wall is also not a great fit. You need a guy who can play off the ball next to Harden.

I would have explored a trade with Detroit if I had been the Rockets GM. Westbrook for Griffen + this year's pick (Hayes or Haliburton). Then either flip the pick for PG that fits better or role the dice with a rookie PG. Griffin's contract is a year shorter and while he's not going to be worth his contract, he'll at least be a better fit as a stretch PF.

Not a great fit but better than Westbrook...

Chris Paul was the ideal PG next to Harden because you can see Paul setting up the offense while Harden rests or play off the ball.

Westbrook and Harden was basically two similar styled players... Dribble ISO before last second dish to a shooter or dunker.

Wall is a better traditional play maker than Westbrook as in he makes the extra pass early to set up plays down the line. He has better play making instinct... Not just box score assists.

WeekapaugGroove · Post #3955 » by **WeekapaugGroove** » Thu Dec 3, 2020 5:34 pm

thamadkant wrote:
Mr Puddles wrote:
Kerrsed wrote:
But whens the last time anyone has seen a "Healthy Wall"??? Whats it been, like 5 seasons?

**EDIT: I just looked it up and it was 2016, so just 4 seasons....but still.

Honestly, Wall is also not a great fit. You need a guy who can play off the ball next to Harden.

I would have explored a trade with Detroit if I had been the Rockets GM. Westbrook for Griffen + this year's pick (Hayes or Haliburton). Then either flip the pick for PG that fits better or role the dice with a rookie PG. Griffin's contract is a year shorter and while he's not going to be worth his contract, he'll at least be a better fit as a stretch PF.

Not a great fit but better than Westbrook...

Chris Paul was the ideal PG next to Harden because you can see Paul setting up the offense while Harden rests or play off the ball.

Westbrook and Harden was basically two similar styled players... Dribble ISO before last second dish to a shooter or dunker.

Wall is a better traditional play maker than Westbrook as in he makes the extra pass early to set up plays down the line. He has better play making instinct... Not just box score assists.

The issue with talking fit with Harden is in theory he fits with a guy like Wall but Harden has become so used to iso ball he basically just stands around off the ball now days. If Silas can get James to actually play some real SG this could work.

Re: Puddles, I can't see anyway Detroit would have given up that pick in a Blake for Westbrook deal.

Another Harden point. If I'm houston and things aren't going well at the deadline New Orleans is the team I'm calling. Ingram will be eligible to trade by then and I'd ask for him, a couple other young guys and a boat load of picks.

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Post #3956 » by **bwgood77** » Thu Dec 3, 2020 5:42 pm

Mr Puddles wrote:
SuperSunsFan wrote:I really hope to see Cam payne penciled in as Paul's destined back up because of all the guards we have now he is the only one who is more a true point with legit play making ability and able to create his own shot, he was my favorite player in the bubble.

I actually think our ofseason indicates that our front office (for better or worse) has faith in him. I'm not sure if Payne's bubble performance is an indicator of a strong season ahead, or if he's just a flash in the pan, but I do like that our front office seems to be rewarding guys who work hard and produce (I think Carter is another example of that).

As long as we stagger Paul and Booker I would I would use Galloway and Moore as our first guards off the bench for sure. If we are trying to compete as a playoff team I wouldn't heavily rely on Carter and Payne as more than 3rd string guys..these guys have limited experience and have only looked good on bad teams and against bench players, or in the bubble, which was mostly against teams not playing starters, all stars, etc, that were starting second stringers and using 3rd stringers as backups against guys like Carter/Payne.

Moore and Galloway have far more league experience to rely on if we want to be a playoff contender. I doubt they signed to be behind guys like Payne and Carter. That would be a bit insulting for league vets, at least one who has been a starter for awhile, to be behind Payne, who was basically a FA no one wanted before the bubble, and Carter, a guy with 2 years experience, only playing decent minutes for the Suns.

ImNotMcDiSwear · Post #3957 » by **ImNotMcDiSwear** » Thu Dec 3, 2020 5:55 pm

bwgood77 wrote:
Mr Puddles wrote:
SuperSunsFan wrote:I really hope to see Cam payne penciled in as Paul's destined back up because of all the guards we have now he is the only one who is more a true point with legit play making ability and able to create his own shot, he was my favorite player in the bubble.

I actually think our ofseason indicates that our front office (for better or worse) has faith in him. I'm not sure if Payne's bubble performance is an indicator of a strong season ahead, or if he's just a flash in the pan, but I do like that our front office seems to be rewarding guys who work hard and produce (I think Carter is another example of that).

As long as we stagger Paul and Booker I would I would use Galloway and Moore as our first guards off the bench for sure. If we are trying to compete as a playoff team I wouldn't heavily rely on Carter and Payne as more than 3rd string guys..these guys have limited experience and have only looked good on bad teams and against bench players, or in the bubble, which was mostly against teams not playing starters, all stars, etc, that were starting second stringers and using 3rd stringers as backups against guys like Carter/Payne.

Moore and Galloway have far more league experience to rely on if we want to be a playoff contender. I doubt they signed to be behind guys like Payne and Carter. That would be a bit insulting for league vets, at least one who has been a starter for awhile, to be behind Payne, who was basically a FA no one wanted before the bubble, and Carter, a guy with 2 years experience, only playing decent minutes for the Suns.

All our bench guards will get a shot at rotation minutes, and IMO, it's a fool's errand to try to predict who will win those positional battles. Moore and Galloway have each missed significant time with injuries in the past, and Payne and Carter each give you something neither of those two do, and are younger. It's also worth considering that of the four, Jevon makes the most $$$ and has the longest tenure, and is also the only defensive specialist, all of which suggest to me that he may already be ahead of the Moore and Galloway on the depth chart. We will see.

RunDogGun · Post #3958 » by **RunDogGun** » Thu Dec 3, 2020 6:07 pm

SuperSunsFan wrote:I really hope to see Cam payne penciled in as Paul's destined back up because of all the guards we have now he is the only one who is more a true point with legit play making ability and able to create his own shot, he was my favorite player in the bubble.

I feel we have a lot of options now. Also I think it will depend on what is needed. If we need a junkyard dog at the point position defensively, who could also bring the ball up and differ the playmaking to either Book(I am assuming either Book or Paul will be on the court at all times) or Saric, then Carter would be my choice. But if the hard defender wasn't the pressing need, I would bring Payne off the bench as a my first pg after Paul. He did a great job in the bubble.

The best part is that both Moore and Galloway could step in and take over point responsibilities.

We made some smart choices this offseason, if Paul stays healthy. I am hoping that we can give Paul a lot of rest this year. I think he will be a great vocal leader even if he isn't on the court.

NTB · Post #3959 » by **NTB** » Thu Dec 3, 2020 6:09 pm

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Post #3960 » by **bwgood77** » Thu Dec 3, 2020 6:15 pm

ImNotMcDiSwear wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
Mr Puddles wrote:
I actually think our ofseason indicates that our front office (for better or worse) has faith in him. I'm not sure if Payne's bubble performance is an indicator of a strong season ahead, or if he's just a flash in the pan, but I do like that our front office seems to be rewarding guys who work hard and produce (I think Carter is another example of that).

As long as we stagger Paul and Booker I would I would use Galloway and Moore as our first guards off the bench for sure. If we are trying to compete as a playoff team I wouldn't heavily rely on Carter and Payne as more than 3rd string guys..these guys have limited experience and have only looked good on bad teams and against bench players, or in the bubble, which was mostly against teams not playing starters, all stars, etc, that were starting second stringers and using 3rd stringers as backups against guys like Carter/Payne.

Moore and Galloway have far more league experience to rely on if we want to be a playoff contender. I doubt they signed to be behind guys like Payne and Carter. That would be a bit insulting for league vets, at least one who has been a starter for awhile, to be behind Payne, who was basically a FA no one wanted before the bubble, and Carter, a guy with 2 years experience, only playing decent minutes for the Suns.

All our bench guards will get a shot at rotation minutes, and IMO, it's a fool's errand to try to predict who will win those positional battles. Moore and Galloway have each missed significant time with injuries in the past, and Payne and Carter each give you something neither of those two do, and are younger. It's also worth considering that of the four, Jevon makes the most $$$ and has the longest tenure, and is also the only defensive specialist, all of which suggest to me that he may already be ahead of the Moore and Galloway on the depth chart. We will see.

I agree they will get the opportunity, but I think he is still more of a development guy and we are more serious about competing than developing him...but the reasoning for the 3 years is that maybe he can learn and develop more under vets, and we obviously signed those vets and convinced them to sign for cheap by letting them know they would be key parts.

Carter will work hard and challenge them and learn minutes, but even on our crap guard rotation last year fighting against Okobo and Jerome for minutes, he got 16 minutes per game. I doubt he gets more than maybe 10 on average but will grow as a player to contribute more in the two years after.

I just think we are more ready to win now than giving him time to develop while playing more. He's not really an effective PG, and undersized as a SG, so lineups are limited where you want to play him and compete. Our benches got slaughtered last year and we were very bad without Rubio..of course we looked better in the bubble but of course that was the bubble where the competition was limited outside of 3 games or so.

But yeah, you're obviously right he will get minutes if those guys are injured.