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Woj - Westbrook for Wall and 1st Rounder

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Re: Woj - Westbrook for Wall and 1st Rounder 

Post#301 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Sat Dec 5, 2020 6:13 pm

TGW wrote:WizardsKev on the trade:

https://www.bulletsforever.com/2020/12/4/22151637/washington-wizards-russell-westbrook-statistical-analysis

What can the Wizards expect from Russell Westbrook?

By Kevin Broom Updated Dec 4, 2020, 9:44am EST

The John Wall era in Washington is over. Wall departs as the best guard in franchise history, and probably the seconds best player regardless of position — Wes Unseld earned the top spot by winning MVP as a rookie and leading the team to its only championship.

His break-up with the Wizards is sad, even for a cranky curmudgeon like me who nitpicked his game and leadership. At his best, few in the league could compare with his court vision, precision passing, and ability to create openings for teammates by manipulating defenses and using blinding speed and an explosive first step.

The trade makes it clear he did want to play elsewhere and that the Wizards were happy to oblige. According to sources within the Houston Rockets, the team initially called the Wizards to discuss a Westbrook for Wall swap at the behest of Wall’s agent, Rich Paul.

While many, including myself, believed it would be difficult for Washington to trade Wall’s contract before he took the floor in actual NBA games again, Sheppard and the Wizards were able to negotiate a reasonable deal because Houston was equally motivated to trade Westbrook.

There’s no doubt the Wizards got the player with the better career. Wall was very good in Washington, but Westbrook was just plain better. For example, during Wall’s best season, Westbrook won MVP. I have Westbrook with seven seasons as good or better than Wall’s 2016-17 peak. Westbrook’s career average 166 PPA is about the same as Wall’s high (165).

PPA (Player Production Average) is my overall rating metric that credits players for things that help a team win (scoring, playmaking, rebounding, defending) and debits them for things that don’t (missed shots, turnovers, fouls, poor defense). PPA is pace neutral, accounts for defense, and includes a “degree of difficulty” factor. In PPA, 100 is average, higher is better and replacement level is 45.

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Russell Westbrook vs. John Wall, season by season PPA. Kevin Broom

But, the Wizards aren’t getting MVP Westbrook. Truth is, they’re not getting the career average guy either. As is the #SoWizards way, they’re buying the expensive decline portion of a player’s career. Westbrook is 32-years old — an age at which athletic guards often see their production take a nosedive. And, despite an excellent two months, last season was his least productive since 2009-10, his second season in the league.

Westbrook received All-NBA honors last season, which my analysis says he didn’t deserve. Back in September, I created fourth and fifth team Almost All-NBA lineups and I wrote this about Westbrook:

...if Westbrook hadn’t been named to third team All-NBA, he would not have made my fourth or fifth team. I haven’t looked to see how many teams I’d need to create to get to Westbrook. At least one more.

In other words, I didn’t have him among the NBA’s top 10 guards last season. For this article, I went and looked. Turns out, I would need at least a 7th team “All-NBA” to include Westbrook.

For a guy who was a worthy MVP candidate in at least two seasons, this is significant slippage. He could snap back for another very good year or perhaps two. It would be extraordinary good luck if he managed more than one good-to-very-good seasons. Players his age can be relied on to do two things: get worse and get injured.

Before he became GM, Sheppard told me he thought traditional aging patterns and career arcs don’t apply to today’s NBA because of how players take care of their bodies, and because of modern training and medical care. I’ve tried several times to prove him correct, but have thus far failed to do so. My research indicates that careers still tend to follow a familiar pattern — 2-4 years of improvement, a peak between 25-27 years old, a plateau until 30-32 years old, and a marked decrease in production and availability from there.

As with any pattern, there are always exceptions. Perhaps Westbrook will defy the career arc. As is shown by the chart above, his performance seems to be following the traditional pattern.

Westbrook Meets the Doppelgänger Machine

I ran Westbrook’s 2019-20 with the Rockets through the Statistical Doppelgänger Machine to see the comps. Unsurprisingly for a guy who produces so much in so many areas — points, rebounds, assists, steals, turnovers, missed shots — there are no close matches. Westbrook’s closest comps score in the mid-80s where 100 is a perfect match and most players get comps that score in the 90s.

That said, Westbrook’s historical similars are legendary. Here’s the top 10:

Kobe Bryant, 2009-10, Los Angeles Lakers, age 31 — With a 149 PPA, this was the least productive season since Bryant’s third year in the league, when he was 20 years old. While his performance was diminished from his peak (200 PPA at age 27), he followed it up with three more good-to-very-good seasons (170, 137 and 159). Then he tore his Achilles and his production didn’t approach league average again.

Carmelo Anthony, 2014-15, New York Knicks, 30 — Anthony was very good, though overrated throughout his career. His peak was a 173 PPA at 29. At 30, he managed just 40 games and a 142 PPA. He followed that up with a steady decline: 135, 106, 72, 51 and 70 this past season.

Vince Carter, 2003-04, Toronto Raptors, 27 — Carter’s name shows up a couple more times on this list. This was a rough season for Carter (120 PPA), who’d grown unhappy in Toronto and was trying to force a trade. He played even worse the following season for the Raptors, and abruptly performed better when he got the trade to the New Jersey Nets. Carter’s best season was a 200 PPA in his third year in the league (age 24).

Carmelo Anthony, 2011-12, New York Knicks, 27 — Anthony’s first full season with the Knicks. It wasn’t great — a 143 PPA. His two best years were still to come.

Dwyane Wade, 2014-15, Miami Heat, 33 — Legendary name whose production had declined each of the previous seasons. At 33, he hit the proverbial career wall, and his production plummeted from a 164 PPA to 124. He had two more above average seasons at 34 and 35 before an even steeper dropoff. Westbrook’s production pattern matches up pretty well with Wade’s, albeit with the production decline coming a couple years earlier with Westbrook. At least so far.

Tracy McGrady, 2007-08, Houston Rockets, 28 — A transcendent talent in his early 20s, injuries stole what should have been his prime. At 28, McGrady was fading — a 124 PPA (down from 173 the previous season). He followed that with a 126 the following season, but in just 35 games. It got worse from there.

Vince Carter, 2006-07, New Jersey Nets, 30 — Carter’s reputation has probably been helped by his longevity, as well as indelible dunk contest performances and the...umm...Nutscraper over Frederic Weis in the Olympics. This was actually his last stellar season — a 163 PPA. He was decent for another three seasons, he managed a slightly above average season at age 36 for the Dallas Mavericks, and he had some other seasons where he performed at the level of a useful reserve.

Gilbert Arenas, 2009-10, Washington Wizards, 28 — This was post-injury Arenas and his play was mediocre (104 PPA) until he got suspended for bringing guns into the locker room.

Glenn Robinson, 2001-02, Milwaukee Bucks, 29 — Never all that good, Robinson’s production would decline from a 126 PPA to 96 at age 30. The next two seasons got even worse and he retired at 32.

Vince Carter, 2005-06, New Jersey Nets, 29

World B. Free, 1984-85, Cleveland Cavaliers, 31 — Something tells me Free would be more valued in today’s game than he was in the 70s and 80s when he played. This was his best season (132 PPA) when he abruptly started taking threes (3.4 per pace adjusted 40 minutes) and hitting them (36.8%).

Lebron James, 2015-16, Cleveland Cavaliers, 31 — This was James’ second season back in Cleveland and he was terrific (226 PPA). James led the Cavaliers to a championship — his third — over the 73-win Golden State Warriors. By the way, James has 14 seasons with a PPA of 200 or higher, including each of the past five. No Wizards or Bullets player since my database begins in 1977-78 has ever cracked 200. The high PPA was a 189 by Moses Malone in 1986-87.

Those who can count may notice that 12 is more than the 10 I promised. Look, I saw my chance to have Gilbert Arenas, World B. Free, and Lebron James on the same list, and I took it.

I’ll have more about Westbrook when I do my preseason forecast in the next few days. Given his age, it’s unrealistic to expect improvement. He’ll be an upgrade over what they had playing guard last season, and probably enough to at least get the Wizards into the play-in games. Expecting more than that would be #SoWizards.


Kevin used a lot of research. He’s extremely intelligent. I don’t possess that type of intellect but I have been blessed with pretty good intuition. My expectations of Westbrook line up with Kevin’s.

The outcome is probably going to be similar to when the Bullets/Wizards have acquired other past their prime players. Moses Malone. Gus Williams. Bernard King. Michael Jordan. All of them were done or close to done. Washington at best was mediocre with the aged star fading. I think it’s likely that Westbrook starts breaking down within a year or two. Hamstring injury is what started happening with Rod Strickland when he was around the same age as Westbrook. Russell W has a ton of miles on his legs.

The only way I could see the deal really working out is if some how the Wizards can trade Westbrook before the real decline happens.
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Re: Woj - Westbrook for Wall and 1st Rounder 

Post#302 » by nate33 » Sat Dec 5, 2020 6:20 pm

Westbrook is certainly on the decline; Father Time is undefeated. But I do think his precipitous decline last year was exacerbated by the awkward situation in Houston where he was clearly a bad fit. I expect a modest bounce-back year, with Westbrook posting a PPA a little better than last season, but not as good as two years ago. He will continue to decline after that, so I'm hoping for a trade where we "sell high" - either at the Trade Deadline this year or next summer.
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Re: Woj - Westbrook for Wall and 1st Rounder 

Post#303 » by queridiculo » Sat Dec 5, 2020 6:42 pm

TGW wrote:WizardsKev on the trade:

https://www.bulletsforever.com/2020/12/4/22151637/washington-wizards-russell-westbrook-statistical-analysis

Kevin Broom wrote:
Before he became GM, Sheppard told me he thought traditional aging patterns and career arcs don’t apply to today’s NBA because of how players take care of their bodies, and because of modern training and medical care. I’ve tried several times to prove him correct, but have thus far failed to do so. My research indicates that careers still tend to follow a familiar pattern — 2-4 years of improvement, a peak between 25-27 years old, a plateau until 30-32 years old, and a marked decrease in production and availability from there.

As with any pattern, there are always exceptions. Perhaps Westbrook will defy the career arc. As is shown by the chart above, his performance seems to be following the traditional pattern.


Is it really a surprise to see Ernieesque moves from his decade and a half understudy?
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Re: Woj - Westbrook for Wall and 1st Rounder 

Post#304 » by queridiculo » Sat Dec 5, 2020 6:54 pm

nate33 wrote:Wow. I'm very impressed with Beal's performance with the media. He struck an absolutely perfect balance: showing love and respect for Wall, an appropriate amount of sadness and regret that he is gone, but also was an ambassador for the team - viewing the potential upside of adding Westbrook with optimism. He also successfully dispelled any perception that he was the driver in trying to oust Wall.

Beal is an extremely intelligent guy. Just a masterful PR performance.


That was heartfelt and candid.

Performances typically have the milquetoast quality that we're used to from Leonsis.
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Re: Woj - Westbrook for Wall and 1st Rounder 

Post#305 » by TGW » Sat Dec 5, 2020 7:02 pm

queridiculo wrote:
nate33 wrote:Wow. I'm very impressed with Beal's performance with the media. He struck an absolutely perfect balance: showing love and respect for Wall, an appropriate amount of sadness and regret that he is gone, but also was an ambassador for the team - viewing the potential upside of adding Westbrook with optimism. He also successfully dispelled any perception that he was the driver in trying to oust Wall.

Beal is an extremely intelligent guy. Just a masterful PR performance.


That was heartfelt and candid.

Performances typically have the milquetoast quality that we're used to from Leonsis.


It even surpassed Ted's double bottom line threshold. Beal entered into triple bottom line territory.

I expect Beal to be named GM for life the day he retires.
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Re: Woj - Westbrook for Wall and 1st Rounder 

Post#306 » by closg00 » Sat Dec 5, 2020 8:49 pm

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Re: Woj - Westbrook for Wall and 1st Rounder 

Post#307 » by payitforward » Sat Dec 5, 2020 11:55 pm

nate33 wrote:Westbrook is certainly on the decline; Father Time is undefeated. But I do think his precipitous decline last year was exacerbated by the awkward situation in Houston where he was clearly a bad fit. I expect a modest bounce-back year, with Westbrook posting a PPA a little better than last season, but not as good as two years ago. He will continue to decline after that, so I'm hoping for a trade where we "sell high" - either at the Trade Deadline this year or next summer.

As you write, Westbrook is "on the decline." What 32-year-old player isn't on the decline?

OTOH, how much that matters will depend on where you are declining from! :) In 2018-19, his last year in OKC, Westbrook put up numbers better than John Wall ever did in any season of his career. Not a little better, significantly better.

I'm not sure that his drop last year was simply "exacerbated" by bad fit. It might actually have been *caused* by it!

In fact, his scoring last year was up from 18-19 -- points, usage & efficiency; all 3 of them. In fact, the only declines from the previous year were in defensive rebounding & assists.

The drop in assists (down @3.5 per 40 minutes) I attribute more or less 100% to playing with Harden who has as many assists as an average PG on his own. That number seems likely to return to where it was. Wouldn't be a surprise to see his defensive boards jump back up as well.

Finally, John Wall is in almost the same phase of his career as Westbrook, & if he's younger by a couple of years it is also true that he brings more injury history, etc. etc.
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Re: Woj - Westbrook for Wall and 1st Rounder 

Post#308 » by payitforward » Sun Dec 6, 2020 12:06 am

nate33 wrote:Wow. I'm very impressed with Beal's performance with the media. He struck an absolutely perfect balance: showing love and respect for Wall, an appropriate amount of sadness and regret that he is gone, but also was an ambassador for the team - viewing the potential upside of adding Westbrook with optimism. He also successfully dispelled any perception that he was the driver in trying to oust Wall.

Beal is an extremely intelligent guy. Just a masterful PR performance.

Absolutely -- & aside from everything else, the evident sincerity of it was impressive. He's quite a guy, that Bradley Beal.
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Re: Woj - Westbrook for Wall and 1st Rounder 

Post#309 » by Benjammin » Sun Dec 6, 2020 2:15 am

I know he wasn't considered a good teammate and wasn't an efficient player, but Elvin Hayes had a better for the Bullets than Wall had for the Wizards.

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Re: Woj - Westbrook for Wall and 1st Rounder 

Post#310 » by verbal8 » Sun Dec 6, 2020 2:30 am

closg00 wrote:https://sportsnaut.com/russell-westbrook-trade-2/


This article does point out the Rockets painting themselves into a bit of a corner. I think a healthy Wall with a new improved jumper could be something that would improve them. Maybe the improved chemistry would making it a win for them if the Wall and Westbrook have similar productivity.
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Re: Woj - Westbrook for Wall and 1st Rounder 

Post#311 » by montestewart » Sun Dec 6, 2020 3:50 am

TGW wrote:
queridiculo wrote:
nate33 wrote:Wow. I'm very impressed with Beal's performance with the media. He struck an absolutely perfect balance: showing love and respect for Wall, an appropriate amount of sadness and regret that he is gone, but also was an ambassador for the team - viewing the potential upside of adding Westbrook with optimism. He also successfully dispelled any perception that he was the driver in trying to oust Wall.

Beal is an extremely intelligent guy. Just a masterful PR performance.


That was heartfelt and candid.

Performances typically have the milquetoast quality that we're used to from Leonsis.


It even surpassed Ted's double bottom line threshold. Beal entered into triple bottom line territory.

I expect Beal to be named GM for life the day he retires.

Hilarious use of Terd quote.

I remember Beal pouting on the bench as the team won. That was a few years back and he seems to have matured a bit since then.

I don’t have any real reason to think they are close to being true contenders, but also don’t have any reason to think this will all fail spectacularly either. So there’s room for some optimism, without deluding myself about Terd or pretending that lying isn’t part of the game. I’m looking forward to camp and opening night, looking forward to Westbrook and Beal. It’s been a few years since I really looked forward to the Wizards.

Also looking forward to Wall’s return to DC as a Rocket.
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Re: Woj - Westbrook for Wall and 1st Rounder 

Post#312 » by TGW » Sun Dec 6, 2020 5:19 am

Another take:

;t=30s
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Re: Woj - Westbrook for Wall and 1st Rounder 

Post#313 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Sun Dec 6, 2020 6:40 am

TGW wrote:Another take:

;t=30s


Very nicely done.

Between this and the First Take panel discussion between Stephen A., Max, and Perkins; one thing I’m seeing is a fair bit of enthusiasm about the Wizards’ chances. Russell moves more of the ball. He’s likely to enjoy playing with Beal than with Harden. The Wizards definitely have upgraded at PG.

In Houston, Wall might as well stand around while Harden has the ball. John is going to make a lot of wide open threes. Harden will mesh better with Wall.
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Re: Woj - Westbrook for Wall and 1st Rounder 

Post#314 » by prime1time » Sun Dec 6, 2020 12:47 pm

TGW wrote:WizardsKev on the trade:

https://www.bulletsforever.com/2020/12/4/22151637/washington-wizards-russell-westbrook-statistical-analysis

What can the Wizards expect from Russell Westbrook?

By Kevin Broom Updated Dec 4, 2020, 9:44am EST

The John Wall era in Washington is over. Wall departs as the best guard in franchise history, and probably the seconds best player regardless of position — Wes Unseld earned the top spot by winning MVP as a rookie and leading the team to its only championship.

His break-up with the Wizards is sad, even for a cranky curmudgeon like me who nitpicked his game and leadership. At his best, few in the league could compare with his court vision, precision passing, and ability to create openings for teammates by manipulating defenses and using blinding speed and an explosive first step.

The trade makes it clear he did want to play elsewhere and that the Wizards were happy to oblige. According to sources within the Houston Rockets, the team initially called the Wizards to discuss a Westbrook for Wall swap at the behest of Wall’s agent, Rich Paul.

While many, including myself, believed it would be difficult for Washington to trade Wall’s contract before he took the floor in actual NBA games again, Sheppard and the Wizards were able to negotiate a reasonable deal because Houston was equally motivated to trade Westbrook.

There’s no doubt the Wizards got the player with the better career. Wall was very good in Washington, but Westbrook was just plain better. For example, during Wall’s best season, Westbrook won MVP. I have Westbrook with seven seasons as good or better than Wall’s 2016-17 peak. Westbrook’s career average 166 PPA is about the same as Wall’s high (165).

PPA (Player Production Average) is my overall rating metric that credits players for things that help a team win (scoring, playmaking, rebounding, defending) and debits them for things that don’t (missed shots, turnovers, fouls, poor defense). PPA is pace neutral, accounts for defense, and includes a “degree of difficulty” factor. In PPA, 100 is average, higher is better and replacement level is 45.

Image
Russell Westbrook vs. John Wall, season by season PPA. Kevin Broom

But, the Wizards aren’t getting MVP Westbrook. Truth is, they’re not getting the career average guy either. As is the #SoWizards way, they’re buying the expensive decline portion of a player’s career. Westbrook is 32-years old — an age at which athletic guards often see their production take a nosedive. And, despite an excellent two months, last season was his least productive since 2009-10, his second season in the league.

Westbrook received All-NBA honors last season, which my analysis says he didn’t deserve. Back in September, I created fourth and fifth team Almost All-NBA lineups and I wrote this about Westbrook:

...if Westbrook hadn’t been named to third team All-NBA, he would not have made my fourth or fifth team. I haven’t looked to see how many teams I’d need to create to get to Westbrook. At least one more.

In other words, I didn’t have him among the NBA’s top 10 guards last season. For this article, I went and looked. Turns out, I would need at least a 7th team “All-NBA” to include Westbrook.

For a guy who was a worthy MVP candidate in at least two seasons, this is significant slippage. He could snap back for another very good year or perhaps two. It would be extraordinary good luck if he managed more than one good-to-very-good seasons. Players his age can be relied on to do two things: get worse and get injured.

Before he became GM, Sheppard told me he thought traditional aging patterns and career arcs don’t apply to today’s NBA because of how players take care of their bodies, and because of modern training and medical care. I’ve tried several times to prove him correct, but have thus far failed to do so. My research indicates that careers still tend to follow a familiar pattern — 2-4 years of improvement, a peak between 25-27 years old, a plateau until 30-32 years old, and a marked decrease in production and availability from there.

As with any pattern, there are always exceptions. Perhaps Westbrook will defy the career arc. As is shown by the chart above, his performance seems to be following the traditional pattern.

Westbrook Meets the Doppelgänger Machine

I ran Westbrook’s 2019-20 with the Rockets through the Statistical Doppelgänger Machine to see the comps. Unsurprisingly for a guy who produces so much in so many areas — points, rebounds, assists, steals, turnovers, missed shots — there are no close matches. Westbrook’s closest comps score in the mid-80s where 100 is a perfect match and most players get comps that score in the 90s.

That said, Westbrook’s historical similars are legendary. Here’s the top 10:

Kobe Bryant, 2009-10, Los Angeles Lakers, age 31 — With a 149 PPA, this was the least productive season since Bryant’s third year in the league, when he was 20 years old. While his performance was diminished from his peak (200 PPA at age 27), he followed it up with three more good-to-very-good seasons (170, 137 and 159). Then he tore his Achilles and his production didn’t approach league average again.

Carmelo Anthony, 2014-15, New York Knicks, 30 — Anthony was very good, though overrated throughout his career. His peak was a 173 PPA at 29. At 30, he managed just 40 games and a 142 PPA. He followed that up with a steady decline: 135, 106, 72, 51 and 70 this past season.

Vince Carter, 2003-04, Toronto Raptors, 27 — Carter’s name shows up a couple more times on this list. This was a rough season for Carter (120 PPA), who’d grown unhappy in Toronto and was trying to force a trade. He played even worse the following season for the Raptors, and abruptly performed better when he got the trade to the New Jersey Nets. Carter’s best season was a 200 PPA in his third year in the league (age 24).

Carmelo Anthony, 2011-12, New York Knicks, 27 — Anthony’s first full season with the Knicks. It wasn’t great — a 143 PPA. His two best years were still to come.

Dwyane Wade, 2014-15, Miami Heat, 33 — Legendary name whose production had declined each of the previous seasons. At 33, he hit the proverbial career wall, and his production plummeted from a 164 PPA to 124. He had two more above average seasons at 34 and 35 before an even steeper dropoff. Westbrook’s production pattern matches up pretty well with Wade’s, albeit with the production decline coming a couple years earlier with Westbrook. At least so far.

Tracy McGrady, 2007-08, Houston Rockets, 28 — A transcendent talent in his early 20s, injuries stole what should have been his prime. At 28, McGrady was fading — a 124 PPA (down from 173 the previous season). He followed that with a 126 the following season, but in just 35 games. It got worse from there.

Vince Carter, 2006-07, New Jersey Nets, 30 — Carter’s reputation has probably been helped by his longevity, as well as indelible dunk contest performances and the...umm...Nutscraper over Frederic Weis in the Olympics. This was actually his last stellar season — a 163 PPA. He was decent for another three seasons, he managed a slightly above average season at age 36 for the Dallas Mavericks, and he had some other seasons where he performed at the level of a useful reserve.

Gilbert Arenas, 2009-10, Washington Wizards, 28 — This was post-injury Arenas and his play was mediocre (104 PPA) until he got suspended for bringing guns into the locker room.

Glenn Robinson, 2001-02, Milwaukee Bucks, 29 — Never all that good, Robinson’s production would decline from a 126 PPA to 96 at age 30. The next two seasons got even worse and he retired at 32.

Vince Carter, 2005-06, New Jersey Nets, 29

World B. Free, 1984-85, Cleveland Cavaliers, 31 — Something tells me Free would be more valued in today’s game than he was in the 70s and 80s when he played. This was his best season (132 PPA) when he abruptly started taking threes (3.4 per pace adjusted 40 minutes) and hitting them (36.8%).

Lebron James, 2015-16, Cleveland Cavaliers, 31 — This was James’ second season back in Cleveland and he was terrific (226 PPA). James led the Cavaliers to a championship — his third — over the 73-win Golden State Warriors. By the way, James has 14 seasons with a PPA of 200 or higher, including each of the past five. No Wizards or Bullets player since my database begins in 1977-78 has ever cracked 200. The high PPA was a 189 by Moses Malone in 1986-87.

Those who can count may notice that 12 is more than the 10 I promised. Look, I saw my chance to have Gilbert Arenas, World B. Free, and Lebron James on the same list, and I took it.

I’ll have more about Westbrook when I do my preseason forecast in the next few days. Given his age, it’s unrealistic to expect improvement. He’ll be an upgrade over what they had playing guard last season, and probably enough to at least get the Wizards into the play-in games. Expecting more than that would be #SoWizards.

Well written article but makes a ton of assumptions. Westbrook was forced to sacrifice his normal style of play last year to fit into the Rocket’s Harden dominant style. The writer early on chose that he was going to analyze Westbrook through the lens of age and it ultimately subverts his conclusions.

For example, what does he have to say about Westbrook from January to March where he put up great numbers after Capela left and the Rockets went to a 5 out offense? What does he have to say about the impact on Westbrook’s game of sacrificing to play with Harden? If Westbrook was staying in the same place, playing the same style then this kind of analysis would have more credibility. Instead he has been on 3 teams in the last 3 years and he will okay a slightly different role on each team.

Could he be declining? Yes. But this article reaches conclusions that the author is simply unable to make because of confounding variables. I took econometrics 1 and 2. This is a classic case of an author ore-determining the conclusion before he writes. At the end of the day the pre-season starts in 1 week and the season starts in a little less than 2 and a half weeks. We’ll see what happens then.
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Re: Woj - Westbrook for Wall and 1st Rounder 

Post#315 » by montestewart » Sun Dec 6, 2020 3:17 pm

prime1time wrote:
TGW wrote:WizardsKev on the trade:

https://www.bulletsforever.com/2020/12/4/22151637/washington-wizards-russell-westbrook-statistical-analysis

Spoiler:
What can the Wizards expect from Russell Westbrook?

By Kevin Broom Updated Dec 4, 2020, 9:44am EST

The John Wall era in Washington is over. Wall departs as the best guard in franchise history, and probably the seconds best player regardless of position — Wes Unseld earned the top spot by winning MVP as a rookie and leading the team to its only championship.

His break-up with the Wizards is sad, even for a cranky curmudgeon like me who nitpicked his game and leadership. At his best, few in the league could compare with his court vision, precision passing, and ability to create openings for teammates by manipulating defenses and using blinding speed and an explosive first step.

The trade makes it clear he did want to play elsewhere and that the Wizards were happy to oblige. According to sources within the Houston Rockets, the team initially called the Wizards to discuss a Westbrook for Wall swap at the behest of Wall’s agent, Rich Paul.

While many, including myself, believed it would be difficult for Washington to trade Wall’s contract before he took the floor in actual NBA games again, Sheppard and the Wizards were able to negotiate a reasonable deal because Houston was equally motivated to trade Westbrook.

There’s no doubt the Wizards got the player with the better career. Wall was very good in Washington, but Westbrook was just plain better. For example, during Wall’s best season, Westbrook won MVP. I have Westbrook with seven seasons as good or better than Wall’s 2016-17 peak. Westbrook’s career average 166 PPA is about the same as Wall’s high (165).

PPA (Player Production Average) is my overall rating metric that credits players for things that help a team win (scoring, playmaking, rebounding, defending) and debits them for things that don’t (missed shots, turnovers, fouls, poor defense). PPA is pace neutral, accounts for defense, and includes a “degree of difficulty” factor. In PPA, 100 is average, higher is better and replacement level is 45.

Image
Russell Westbrook vs. John Wall, season by season PPA. Kevin Broom

But, the Wizards aren’t getting MVP Westbrook. Truth is, they’re not getting the career average guy either. As is the #SoWizards way, they’re buying the expensive decline portion of a player’s career. Westbrook is 32-years old — an age at which athletic guards often see their production take a nosedive. And, despite an excellent two months, last season was his least productive since 2009-10, his second season in the league.

Westbrook received All-NBA honors last season, which my analysis says he didn’t deserve. Back in September, I created fourth and fifth team Almost All-NBA lineups and I wrote this about Westbrook:

...if Westbrook hadn’t been named to third team All-NBA, he would not have made my fourth or fifth team. I haven’t looked to see how many teams I’d need to create to get to Westbrook. At least one more.

In other words, I didn’t have him among the NBA’s top 10 guards last season. For this article, I went and looked. Turns out, I would need at least a 7th team “All-NBA” to include Westbrook.

For a guy who was a worthy MVP candidate in at least two seasons, this is significant slippage. He could snap back for another very good year or perhaps two. It would be extraordinary good luck if he managed more than one good-to-very-good seasons. Players his age can be relied on to do two things: get worse and get injured.

Before he became GM, Sheppard told me he thought traditional aging patterns and career arcs don’t apply to today’s NBA because of how players take care of their bodies, and because of modern training and medical care. I’ve tried several times to prove him correct, but have thus far failed to do so. My research indicates that careers still tend to follow a familiar pattern — 2-4 years of improvement, a peak between 25-27 years old, a plateau until 30-32 years old, and a marked decrease in production and availability from there.

As with any pattern, there are always exceptions. Perhaps Westbrook will defy the career arc. As is shown by the chart above, his performance seems to be following the traditional pattern.

Westbrook Meets the Doppelgänger Machine

I ran Westbrook’s 2019-20 with the Rockets through the Statistical Doppelgänger Machine to see the comps. Unsurprisingly for a guy who produces so much in so many areas — points, rebounds, assists, steals, turnovers, missed shots — there are no close matches. Westbrook’s closest comps score in the mid-80s where 100 is a perfect match and most players get comps that score in the 90s.

That said, Westbrook’s historical similars are legendary. Here’s the top 10:

Kobe Bryant, 2009-10, Los Angeles Lakers, age 31 — With a 149 PPA, this was the least productive season since Bryant’s third year in the league, when he was 20 years old. While his performance was diminished from his peak (200 PPA at age 27), he followed it up with three more good-to-very-good seasons (170, 137 and 159). Then he tore his Achilles and his production didn’t approach league average again.

Carmelo Anthony, 2014-15, New York Knicks, 30 — Anthony was very good, though overrated throughout his career. His peak was a 173 PPA at 29. At 30, he managed just 40 games and a 142 PPA. He followed that up with a steady decline: 135, 106, 72, 51 and 70 this past season.

Vince Carter, 2003-04, Toronto Raptors, 27 — Carter’s name shows up a couple more times on this list. This was a rough season for Carter (120 PPA), who’d grown unhappy in Toronto and was trying to force a trade. He played even worse the following season for the Raptors, and abruptly performed better when he got the trade to the New Jersey Nets. Carter’s best season was a 200 PPA in his third year in the league (age 24).

Carmelo Anthony, 2011-12, New York Knicks, 27 — Anthony’s first full season with the Knicks. It wasn’t great — a 143 PPA. His two best years were still to come.

Dwyane Wade, 2014-15, Miami Heat, 33 — Legendary name whose production had declined each of the previous seasons. At 33, he hit the proverbial career wall, and his production plummeted from a 164 PPA to 124. He had two more above average seasons at 34 and 35 before an even steeper dropoff. Westbrook’s production pattern matches up pretty well with Wade’s, albeit with the production decline coming a couple years earlier with Westbrook. At least so far.

Tracy McGrady, 2007-08, Houston Rockets, 28 — A transcendent talent in his early 20s, injuries stole what should have been his prime. At 28, McGrady was fading — a 124 PPA (down from 173 the previous season). He followed that with a 126 the following season, but in just 35 games. It got worse from there.

Vince Carter, 2006-07, New Jersey Nets, 30 — Carter’s reputation has probably been helped by his longevity, as well as indelible dunk contest performances and the...umm...Nutscraper over Frederic Weis in the Olympics. This was actually his last stellar season — a 163 PPA. He was decent for another three seasons, he managed a slightly above average season at age 36 for the Dallas Mavericks, and he had some other seasons where he performed at the level of a useful reserve.

Gilbert Arenas, 2009-10, Washington Wizards, 28 — This was post-injury Arenas and his play was mediocre (104 PPA) until he got suspended for bringing guns into the locker room.

Glenn Robinson, 2001-02, Milwaukee Bucks, 29 — Never all that good, Robinson’s production would decline from a 126 PPA to 96 at age 30. The next two seasons got even worse and he retired at 32.

Vince Carter, 2005-06, New Jersey Nets, 29

World B. Free, 1984-85, Cleveland Cavaliers, 31 — Something tells me Free would be more valued in today’s game than he was in the 70s and 80s when he played. This was his best season (132 PPA) when he abruptly started taking threes (3.4 per pace adjusted 40 minutes) and hitting them (36.8%).

Lebron James, 2015-16, Cleveland Cavaliers, 31 — This was James’ second season back in Cleveland and he was terrific (226 PPA). James led the Cavaliers to a championship — his third — over the 73-win Golden State Warriors. By the way, James has 14 seasons with a PPA of 200 or higher, including each of the past five. No Wizards or Bullets player since my database begins in 1977-78 has ever cracked 200. The high PPA was a 189 by Moses Malone in 1986-87.

Those who can count may notice that 12 is more than the 10 I promised. Look, I saw my chance to have Gilbert Arenas, World B. Free, and Lebron James on the same list, and I took it.

I’ll have more about Westbrook when I do my preseason forecast in the next few days. Given his age, it’s unrealistic to expect improvement. He’ll be an upgrade over what they had playing guard last season, and probably enough to at least get the Wizards into the play-in games. Expecting more than that would be #SoWizards.

Well written article but makes a ton of assumptions. Westbrook was forced to sacrifice his normal style of play last year to fit into the Rocket’s Harden dominant style. The writer early on chose that he was going to analyze Westbrook through the lens of age and it ultimately subverts his conclusions.

For example, what does he have to say about Westbrook from January to March where he put up great numbers after Capela left and the Rockets went to a 5 out offense? What does he have to say about the impact on Westbrook’s game of sacrificing to play with Harden? If Westbrook was staying in the same place, playing the same style then this kind of analysis would have more credibility. Instead he has been on 3 teams in the last 3 years and he will okay a slightly different role on each team.

Could he be declining? Yes. But this article reaches conclusions that the author is simply unable to make because of confounding variables. I took econometrics 1 and 2. This is a classic case of an author ore-determining the conclusion before he writes. At the end of the day the pre-season starts in 1 week and the season starts in a little less than 2 and a half weeks. We’ll see what happens then.

I didn't take econometrics (whatever that is), but I agree that some of Westbrook's numbers might go up, and I hope he is a good addition and continues so throughout his contract. I agree with the articles general premise, which I don't think is guided by assumptions about an individual player while failing to take into account exceptional circumstances from last year, but instead largely employs broadly accepted assumptions about player decline in general.

The article focuses on Westbrook's career arc, its already established decline, and comparisons with other top players. There is no overemphasis on last year which undermines the general premise. In context, "given his age, it’s unrealistic to expect improvement," seems like a classic realistic comment based on numbers and history, and "perhaps Westbrook will defy the career arc," along with the comparisons, appropriately acknowledge other potential outcomes.
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Re: Woj - Westbrook for Wall and 1st Rounder 

Post#316 » by payitforward » Sun Dec 6, 2020 3:57 pm

Image
Russell Westbrook vs. John Wall, season by season PPA. Kevin Broom

1. Impossible to asesss the meaning of this graph w/o a thorough explanation of the meaning of the scale.

2. The graph indicates far better performance in year 7 than in year 11 -- go look at the numbers yourself. That's nonsense.
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Re: Woj - Westbrook for Wall and 1st Rounder 

Post#317 » by AFM » Sun Dec 6, 2020 4:10 pm

Nivek using excel for his graphs
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Re: Woj - Westbrook for Wall and 1st Rounder 

Post#318 » by montestewart » Sun Dec 6, 2020 5:16 pm

payitforward wrote:
Image
Russell Westbrook vs. John Wall, season by season PPA. Kevin Broom

1. Impossible to asesss the meaning of this graph w/o a thorough explanation of the meaning of the scale.

2. The graph indicates far better performance in year 7 than in year 11 -- go look at the numbers yourself. That's nonsense.

Can you show what years you are calling 7 and 11? At a glance, it looks pretty credible.
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Re: Woj - Westbrook for Wall and 1st Rounder 

Post#319 » by montestewart » Sun Dec 6, 2020 5:18 pm

AFM wrote:Nivek using excel for his graphs

Well, in my system, which I call XLS, Westbrook is pretty high, just like I was when I designed the system.
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Re: Woj - Westbrook for Wall and 1st Rounder 

Post#320 » by pcbothwel » Sun Dec 6, 2020 8:04 pm

I know you have to squint a bit to see it, but Westbrooks games last year resembles a bit of Jimmy Butler.
Butler is a FAR better defender and draws a TON more Fouls, but their shooting % in attempts and FG% is VERY similar within 10 feet and from 3. Both are great rebounders who feel very comfortable working in the post.

https://stathead.com/tiny/TnBGI

Whats crazy is that Westbrook had a eFG% 2% points higher than Butler, but his TS was 5% points lower due to Butler Living at the FT line.
Id love to see Russ adopt a Butler play style moving forward and lower his usage to the 24-27% range instead of his 33-37% range.

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