Lauri:' I can make the comeback'

[ZOMG]

The argument to move Lauri is that is reasonably likely that there's still some sucker team willing to give us a decent young asset/draft pick for him.

I wish his fans would realize that a PF who puts up 16/8 on 35% 3 pointers is literally a dime a dozen NBA PF. PF is probably the deepest position in the league.

If the Bulls do keep him, remember that Lauri has no excuses this year. No more early injuries, no more Boylen to scapegoat for the fact that he was grabbing 6 rebounds per game, and forgetting about the fact that he REGRESSED in his third year which is the breakout year for 99% of young players who become future all-stars.

Lauri does have flaws in his game, we all know that. But rebounding is not one of them. This is probably the myth that annoys me the most right now.

Averaging 9 per 36 means he's ABOVE average for a modern, perimeter-centric PF. Recently I put together a long list of these guys, and it clearly showed that there's no reason to worry about Markkanen's rebounding. There's only a few dudes in the League with similar roles and body types who are clearly better rebounders than him.

You have to remember that Lauri spent last season chasing ballhandlers in the backcourt. The fact that he still managed to average 7.6 rbs per 36 is a miracle.

Let's put this one to rest. Lauri's rebounding will not stop the Bulls from paying him.

[FranchisePlayer]

Not much of updated substance in this thread but definitely some memorable signature worthy quotes. I guess this is a good place to ventilate one's own frustrations and target The Finnisher.

This is like the "we drafted Lauri who?" three years ago. 90% of the posters thought it was a bonehead move and in the end of the first season those 90% had changed their minds. And now we're in for another re-rack... lol.

[Dez]

Not much of updated substance in this thread but definitely some memorable signature worthy quotes. I guess this is a good place to ventilate one's own frustrations and target The Finnisher.

This is like the "we drafted Lauri who?" three years ago. 90% of the posters thought it was a bonehead move and in the end of the first season those 90% had changed their minds. And now we're in for another re-rack... lol.

Oh please all of the posts in here are legitimate concerns about a player who hasn't improved his game/skills since he's been here and is due a contract at the end of the season.

[ZOMG]

Not much of updated substance in this thread but definitely some memorable signature worthy quotes. I guess this is a good place to ventilate one's own frustrations and target The Finnisher.

This is like the "we drafted Lauri who?" three years ago. 90% of the posters thought it was a bonehead move and in the end of the first season those 90% had changed their minds. And now we're in for another re-rack... lol.

Oh please all of the posts in here are legitimate concerns about a player who hasn't improved his game/skills since he's been here and is due a contract at the end of the season.

Legitimate concerns? Some of them, yes (consistency of 3pt shooting, low post skills, half court ballhandling). The rest is just pessimistic crap not based on reality.

"He can't defend"
(Obviously false. Lauri's perimeter D has never been a problem. He can improve his team defense awareness, though. As for protecting the rim or guarding legitimate NBA centers - that's not his job, nor should it be.)

"He can't rebound"
(Utter BS. In the 2018-19 season, Lauri averaged the same amount of boards per 36 as Wendell, who everybody seems to consider a great rebounder. Then Boylen's blitzing scheme dragged Markkanen far away from the basket and his numbers dropped. Anyway, rebounding in general is not what it used to be, as teams don't like to crash the offensive glass. Overrated stat.)

"He can't pass"
(Another lazy take. I've said from day 1 that Lauri is a good passer and that's a hill I'm willing to die on. There's many examples of Markkanen showing excellent court vision, particularly in 2018-19, when he had the ball in his hands a lot. But overall, he's been a finisher, not a playmaker. Add movemet to the offense, put him in the high post and see what happens.)

[sco]

Not much of updated substance in this thread but definitely some memorable signature worthy quotes. I guess this is a good place to ventilate one's own frustrations and target The Finnisher.

This is like the "we drafted Lauri who?" three years ago. 90% of the posters thought it was a bonehead move and in the end of the first season those 90% had changed their minds. And now we're in for another re-rack... lol.

Oh please all of the posts in here are legitimate concerns about a player who hasn't improved his game/skills since he's been here and is due a contract at the end of the season.

Legitimate concerns? Some of them, yes (consistency of 3pt shooting, low post skills, half court ballhandling). The rest is just pessimistic crap not based on reality.

"He can't defend"
(Obviously false. Lauri's perimeter D has never been a problem. He can improve his team defense awareness, though. As for protecting the rim or guarding legitimate NBA centers - that's not his job, nor should it be.)

"He can't rebound"
(Utter BS. In the 2018-19 season, Lauri averaged the same amount of boards per 36 as Wendell, who everybody seems to consider a great rebounder. Then Boylen's blitzing scheme dragged Markkanen far away from the basket and his numbers dropped. Anyway, rebounding in general is not what it used to be, as teams don't like to crash the offensive glass. Overrated stat.)

"He can't pass"
(Another lazy take. I've said from day 1 that Lauri is a good passer and that's a hill I'm willing to die on. There's many examples of Markkanen showing excellent court vision, particularly in 2018-19, when he had the ball in his hands a lot. But overall, he's been a finisher, not a playmaker. Add movemet to the offense, put him in the high post and see what happens.)

I don't think the points raised are that "He can't defend" "He can't rebound" or "He can't pass". I think the point are that he's just average at those things and has even regressed at them over the 3 years. Coupling that with his contract coming up, many here don't want the opportunity cost of committing anywhere near $20M/yr to a guy whose demonstrated skill is arguably on par with MLE talent.

[Dez]

Not much of updated substance in this thread but definitely some memorable signature worthy quotes. I guess this is a good place to ventilate one's own frustrations and target The Finnisher.

This is like the "we drafted Lauri who?" three years ago. 90% of the posters thought it was a bonehead move and in the end of the first season those 90% had changed their minds. And now we're in for another re-rack... lol.

Oh please all of the posts in here are legitimate concerns about a player who hasn't improved his game/skills since he's been here and is due a contract at the end of the season.

Legitimate concerns? Some of them, yes (consistency of 3pt shooting, low post skills, half court ballhandling). The rest is just pessimistic crap not based on reality.

"He can't defend"
(Obviously false. Lauri's perimeter D has never been a problem. He can improve his team defense awareness, though. As for protecting the rim or guarding legitimate NBA centers - that's not his job, nor should it be.)

"He can't rebound"
(Utter BS. In the 2018-19 season, Lauri averaged the same amount of boards per 36 as Wendell, who everybody seems to consider a great rebounder. Then Boylen's blitzing scheme dragged Markkanen far away from the basket and his numbers dropped. Anyway, rebounding in general is not what it used to be, as teams don't like to crash the offensive glass. Overrated stat.)

"He can't pass"
(Another lazy take. I've said from day 1 that Lauri is a good passer and that's a hill I'm willing to die on. There's many examples of Markkanen showing excellent court vision, particularly in 2018-19, when he had the ball in his hands a lot. But overall, he's been a finisher, not a playmaker. Add movemet to the offense, put him in the high post and see what happens.)

It's "pessimistic crap not based on reality" when others say it but apparently not when you say something?

You have a set of rules for Lauri and then another set of rules for everyone else, it's amazingly hypocritical.

Lauri's perimeter defense has never been a problem but he needs improve his team defense awareness? Replace Lauri's name with Zach and your entire argument flips and you'll attack LaVine if someone said this.

You wouldn't accept Boylen's blitzing scheme dragging WCJ away from the basket but you will for Lauri?

Lauri hasn't shown anything to say he could be classed as a good passer.

Why are you giving Lauri such a huge leash but no other player? It's actually baffling.

[Swuul]

Why are you giving Lauri such a huge leash but no other player? It's actually baffling.

Another thing which is quite baffling how you find your way to any thread about anything in the world to post your "legitimate concern" that "Lauri has no value". It is somehow starting to remind me of the recent "Otto has no value" poster, who seems to have left us with his lovely rhetoric (or perhaps the admins made the choice for him?). In this thread people have been posting actual legitimate concerns, but you have been awfully silent, the only comment (unsurprisingly) being "Lauri has no value" a couple pages back, and otherwise just bashing people who have brought up statistics and numbers showing the opposite.

It almost feels like you have no data to back your opinion, and thus resort to "Lauri has no value" as that is the alternative truth you have sworn to follow to death?

[Dez]

Why are you giving Lauri such a huge leash but no other player? It's actually baffling.

Another thing which is quite baffling how you find your way to any thread about anything in the world to post your "legitimate concern" that "Lauri has no value". It is somehow starting to remind me of the recent "Otto has no value" poster, who seems to have left us with his lovely rhetoric (or perhaps the admins made the choice for him?). In this thread people have been posting actual legitimate concerns, but you have been awfully silent, the only comment (unsurprisingly) being "Lauri has no value" a couple pages back, and otherwise just bashing people who have brought up statistics and numbers showing the opposite.

It almost feels like you have no data to back your opinion, and thus resort to "Lauri has no value" as that is the alternative truth you have sworn to follow to death?

A bit of selective reading then on your part given I've stated multiple concerns.

- Average shooter
- Can't create for himself
- Far too timid
- Doesn't move off-ball
- Poor defender
- No post game
- Can't take advantage of mismatches

He does have no value because he's a RFA at the end of the season, what team in their right mind would offer anything significant for an injury prone and inconsistent player that they would then risk having to overpay to keep given his RFA status? It only takes one team to offer him a ridiculous contract and then the team that traded for Lauri either commits to overpaying or they lose the player they traded assets for.

[sco]

Why are you giving Lauri such a huge leash but no other player? It's actually baffling.

Another thing which is quite baffling how you find your way to any thread about anything in the world to post your "legitimate concern" that "Lauri has no value". It is somehow starting to remind me of the recent "Otto has no value" poster, who seems to have left us with his lovely rhetoric (or perhaps the admins made the choice for him?). In this thread people have been posting actual legitimate concerns, but you have been awfully silent, the only comment (unsurprisingly) being "Lauri has no value" a couple pages back, and otherwise just bashing people who have brought up statistics and numbers showing the opposite.

It almost feels like you have no data to back your opinion, and thus resort to "Lauri has no value" as that is the alternative truth you have sworn to follow to death?

A bit of selective reading then on your part given I've stated multiple concerns.

- Average shooter
- Can't create for himself
- Far too timid
- Doesn't move off-ball
- Poor defender
- No post game
- Can't take advantage of mismatches

He does have no value because he's a RFA at the end of the season, what team in their right mind would offer anything significant for an injury prone and inconsistent player that they would then risk having to overpay to keep given his RFA status? It only takes one team to offer him a ridiculous contract and then the team that traded for Lauri either commits to overpaying or they lose the player they traded assets for.

I think he has some value, and it's tied to comments from the FO in that Lauri is able to lean on the more remaining upside for a normal 4th year guy due to injuries and poor coaching, but even at his best, he's only shown that he's an average starting PF (around 15th best) and last year he was probably around #25-30 best starting PF.

[coldfish]

"He can't defend"
(Obviously false. Lauri's perimeter D has never been a problem. He can improve his team defense awareness, though. As for protecting the rim or guarding legitimate NBA centers - that's not his job, nor should it be.)

"He can't pass"
(Another lazy take. I've said from day 1 that Lauri is a good passer and that's a hill I'm willing to die on. There's many examples of Markkanen showing excellent court vision, particularly in 2018-19, when he had the ball in his hands a lot. But overall, he's been a finisher, not a playmaker. Add movemet to the offense, put him in the high post and see what happens.)

Its everyone's job to help on defense. Obviously, AK realizes that and has stressed it some already. Lauri is an abysmal off ball defender who shows no awareness. Its the same problem Lavine has, which only compounds the issue on the Bulls.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/markkla01.html

Lauri has been in the NBA for 3 years. He has played on 3 terrible teams that were all bad on defense and despite that, when he steps on the floor the defense gets even worse.

.......

On his passing, the issue here is his lack of moves and the fact that he is rather selfish. When he gets it, he takes a shot frequently. On the occasions that he does drive, he again shoots. He has no post game or mid game where he can work the ball, pull in defenders and hit cutters and he doesn't drive and dish much.

His selfishness and lack of creativity is why he has had a lower assist rate than such passing luminaries as . . . Luke Kornett.

In 18/19 his assist rate was lower than last year and again, he had one of the lowest on the team. He was tied with Felicio.

[Indomitable]

Oh please all of the posts in here are legitimate concerns about a player who hasn't improved his game/skills since he's been here and is due a contract at the end of the season.

Legitimate concerns? Some of them, yes (consistency of 3pt shooting, low post skills, half court ballhandling). The rest is just pessimistic crap not based on reality.

"He can't defend"
(Obviously false. Lauri's perimeter D has never been a problem. He can improve his team defense awareness, though. As for protecting the rim or guarding legitimate NBA centers - that's not his job, nor should it be.)

"He can't rebound"
(Utter BS. In the 2018-19 season, Lauri averaged the same amount of boards per 36 as Wendell, who everybody seems to consider a great rebounder. Then Boylen's blitzing scheme dragged Markkanen far away from the basket and his numbers dropped. Anyway, rebounding in general is not what it used to be, as teams don't like to crash the offensive glass. Overrated stat.)

"He can't pass"
(Another lazy take. I've said from day 1 that Lauri is a good passer and that's a hill I'm willing to die on. There's many examples of Markkanen showing excellent court vision, particularly in 2018-19, when he had the ball in his hands a lot. But overall, he's been a finisher, not a playmaker. Add movemet to the offense, put him in the high post and see what happens.)

It's "pessimistic crap not based on reality" when others say it but apparently not when you say something?

You have a set of rules for Lauri and then another set of rules for everyone else, it's amazingly hypocritical.

Lauri's perimeter defense has never been a problem but he needs improve his team defense awareness? Replace Lauri's name with Zach and your entire argument flips and you'll attack LaVine if someone said this.

You wouldn't accept Boylen's blitzing scheme dragging WCJ away from the basket but you will for Lauri?

Lauri hasn't shown anything to say he could be classed as a good passer.

Why are you giving Lauri such a huge leash but no other player? It's actually baffling.

Some people are not willing to be real about Lauri.

Lauri regains real value if he can guard the basket. If he can become a Aaron Baynes level center.

I mean Aaron ability to play defense as a center. Obviously Lauri kills him on offense.

Baynes greats skill is literally rotating into the correct position. Lauri can move his feet but he miss rotation constantly.

[FranchisePlayer]

Not much of updated substance in this thread but definitely some memorable signature worthy quotes. I guess this is a good place to ventilate one's own frustrations and target The Finnisher.

This is like the "we drafted Lauri who?" three years ago. 90% of the posters thought it was a bonehead move and in the end of the first season those 90% had changed their minds. And now we're in for another re-rack... lol.

Oh please all of the posts in here are legitimate concerns about a player who hasn't improved his game/skills since he's been here and is due a contract at the end of the season.

Your post doesn't contradict anything I said. So?

[MrSparkle]

I just want to know why GarPax thought Tim Thomas was the anti-Christ, but they thought Lauri would be the second-coming.

[chefo]

Just to point out the obvious— if Lauri is everything this board wants him to be—good individual defender, a plus team defender AND be able to give you 21/9 on offense with 37% on high volume of threes, that would be a 35m per player and untouchable.

Have some perspective— on 2 out of those 3, he’s already almost there. On help D he may never get there... ever; hence my suggestion to move him away from the paint on D and have him defend outside where he’s actually competent, and get a couple of big wings to play help D next him to replace him as a big on D.

P.S. a 20/8 wing who can shoot a high volume of 3s at 36-38% is a bargain at 20m and not easy to get; that’s a very realistic target for next year; just because Lauri’s tall, doesn’t mean he’ll be an anchor on D.

Btw, You can also hide him on D is to switch everything and go away with playing a traditional big... line Miami and Boston do for most of the game. He’s pretty nimble footed on the outside so somebody so tall.

[Swuul]

He does have no value because he's a RFA at the end of the season, what team in their right mind would offer anything significant for an injury prone and inconsistent player that they would then risk having to overpay to keep given his RFA status?

That comment alone is a classic oxymoron. If he has no value, then he can't have some value. No value =/= not significant value. As such, your repeated "no value" mantra are positioning yourself in a highly questionable position, which can not be seen to be anything but an alternative truth (or, in another word, a three letter word which starts with "L" and ends in an "E").

It is a totally different question whether the value Bulls feel Lauri has is the same as the value other teams value Lauri. The fact is there are lots of teams who would pick up Lauri immediatly if Bulls released Lauri (which would be the result if Bulls saw Lauri having no value). Bulls are not going to release Lauri because it would be absolute lunacy, and as such, we all can have opinions of how close the "no value" comments are to the truth.

[sco]

He does have no value because he's a RFA at the end of the season, what team in their right mind would offer anything significant for an injury prone and inconsistent player that they would then risk having to overpay to keep given his RFA status?

That comment alone is a classic oxymoron. If he has no value, then he can't have some value. No value =/= not significant value. As such, your repeated "no value" mantra are positioning yourself in a highly questionable position, which can not be seen to be anything but an alternative truth (or, in another word, a three letter word which starts with "L" and ends in an "E").

It is a totally different question whether the value Bulls feel Lauri has is the same as the value other teams value Lauri. The fact is there are lots of teams who would pick up Lauri immediatly if Bulls released Lauri (which would be the result if Bulls saw Lauri having no value). Bulls are not going to release Lauri because it would be absolute lunacy, and as such, we all can have opinions of how close the "no value" comments are to the truth.

I think the comment relates to Lauri not having meaningful trade value (i.e. a late lotto pick or better). If Lauri were released, would someone pick him up? Sure. Lauri has demonstrated that he's a prime Thad Young level player.

[Dez]

He does have no value because he's a RFA at the end of the season, what team in their right mind would offer anything significant for an injury prone and inconsistent player that they would then risk having to overpay to keep given his RFA status?

That comment alone is a classic oxymoron. If he has no value, then he can't have some value. No value =/= not significant value. As such, your repeated "no value" mantra are positioning yourself in a highly questionable position, which can not be seen to be anything but an alternative truth (or, in another word, a three letter word which starts with "L" and ends in an "E").

It is a totally different question whether the value Bulls feel Lauri has is the same as the value other teams value Lauri. The fact is there are lots of teams who would pick up Lauri immediatly if Bulls released Lauri (which would be the result if Bulls saw Lauri having no value). Bulls are not going to release Lauri because it would be absolute lunacy, and as such, we all can have opinions of how close the "no value" comments are to the truth.

I think the comment relates to Lauri not having meaningful trade value (i.e. a late lotto pick or better). If Lauri were released, would someone pick him up? Sure. Lauri has demonstrated that he's a prime Thad Young level player.

Yes it was referring to trade value, I'm kind of shocked someone had to point that out but you are correct.

[sco]

That comment alone is a classic oxymoron. If he has no value, then he can't have some value. No value =/= not significant value. As such, your repeated "no value" mantra are positioning yourself in a highly questionable position, which can not be seen to be anything but an alternative truth (or, in another word, a three letter word which starts with "L" and ends in an "E").

It is a totally different question whether the value Bulls feel Lauri has is the same as the value other teams value Lauri. The fact is there are lots of teams who would pick up Lauri immediatly if Bulls released Lauri (which would be the result if Bulls saw Lauri having no value). Bulls are not going to release Lauri because it would be absolute lunacy, and as such, we all can have opinions of how close the "no value" comments are to the truth.

I think the comment relates to Lauri not having meaningful trade value (i.e. a late lotto pick or better). If Lauri were released, would someone pick him up? Sure. Lauri has demonstrated that he's a prime Thad Young level player.

Yes it was referring to trade value, I'm kind of shocked someone had to point that out but you are correct.

I wanted restate what I see Lauri as.

He is an average 3pt shooter
He is a below average to average defender
He is an average rebounder (I think his stats got inflated the years he played next to Rolo who channeled his RB's elsewhere as he was focused on blocking out)
He is a below average ball handler (average in transition, very bad in the paint)

IMO, last year he ranked probably in the bottom 5-8 among starting PF's in the NBA. He was probably around #16-#24 the year before.

Is he a guy I'd mind as our starting PF going forward? Probably, but it is situational around his contract. If you told me that resigning him would cost us the ability to sign 2 MAX talents next offseason instead of one. On the other hand, if we could sign him on a deal that he'd be tradeable and didn't restrict us getting a second elite player next offseason via FA or trade, I'd be happy to keep him.

[Swuul]

I think the comment relates to Lauri not having meaningful trade value (i.e. a late lotto pick or better). If Lauri were released, would someone pick him up? Sure. Lauri has demonstrated that he's a prime Thad Young level player.

Yes it was referring to trade value, I'm kind of shocked someone had to point that out but you are correct.

Ah, the goal post has been moved. Now "no value" equals "no meaningful trade value"? Dez has several times in several treads repeatedly claimed "Lauri has no value", and that any MLE big player could fill his position; that is not even in the same ballpark as claiming "Lauri has no meaningful trade value", and I am kind of shocked somebody would attempt to claim that.

There is an old saying: "If you can't get up from the hole anymore, it might be time to stop digging."

[cjbulls]

That comment alone is a classic oxymoron. If he has no value, then he can't have some value. No value =/= not significant value. As such, your repeated "no value" mantra are positioning yourself in a highly questionable position, which can not be seen to be anything but an alternative truth (or, in another word, a three letter word which starts with "L" and ends in an "E").

It is a totally different question whether the value Bulls feel Lauri has is the same as the value other teams value Lauri. The fact is there are lots of teams who would pick up Lauri immediatly if Bulls released Lauri (which would be the result if Bulls saw Lauri having no value). Bulls are not going to release Lauri because it would be absolute lunacy, and as such, we all can have opinions of how close the "no value" comments are to the truth.

I think the comment relates to Lauri not having meaningful trade value (i.e. a late lotto pick or better). If Lauri were released, would someone pick him up? Sure. Lauri has demonstrated that he's a prime Thad Young level player.

Yes it was referring to trade value, I'm kind of shocked someone had to point that out but you are correct.

I think you are misunderstanding Swuul’s point. You can’t say he has no value because he’s about to get overpaid as an RFA. That makes little sense since it seems to imply there is a market for him. There are two very clear reasons why you would trade for an RFA.

First, you get a year to figure out if it was a Lauri problem or a Bulls problem, see how he fits in your system, etc. Second, you get a right of first refusal on Lauri. No one can outbid them if he does well. Most teams are probably assuming they can’t even get him or have to overpay to get the Bulls to let him go. This puts you in that driver’s seat.

And, if you’re an over-the-cap team you get to buy in on a high contract player at their rookie price. Trading for future RFAs is one of the smartest moves they can make.