Official Speculation Thread '20-'21 VI: "I like this team"

[pepe1991]

well Kawhi Leonard didn't turn into star until his 5th year.

He was Finals MVP in year 3 though. A year he was Defensive second team. And he was a Rookie first teamer.



..

I only used that as allusion of what people were saying about Gordon and his allstar breakout that was always scheaduled to happen- next year.

[fendilim]

maybe, but it also lets you know what a player might be capable of early on. instead of waiting years to see if a player is going to pan out or not. not saying make them a starter, but give decent amount of minute.

Hinkie traded mcw right when he had a good first year because he knew what mcw really sucks. But the very fast pace system of the sixers bloated the stats of mcw

[Bensational]

The guy... gained weight....was probably from a cardio standpoint a little behind... because... you don't gain 30lb + by doing cardio... you eat and lift your butt off. And throw Covid on top of that.... and now you got a guy that is lumbering up and down the court.

He gained weight during the lockdown which started in March 2020. He was drafted in June 2018. There's a 21 month gap there where he hadn't addressed either.

He was also up to 238 at the beginning of the last season.... which players usually lose a lot of once they start playing.

But to be honest with you... if you don't like him... it is what it is. I'm willing to see where this all leads to and hope that it all works for the best.

I like the kid and his potential overall. Just because I'm critical of him doesn't mean I've written him off. I'm still a big Bamba supporter. Just open to the responsibility of his development being shared between Cliff and himself.

[yoyojw17]

He gained weight during the lockdown which started in March 2020. He was drafted in June 2018. There's a 21 month gap there where he hadn't addressed either.

He was also up to 238 at the beginning of the last season.... which players usually lose a lot of once they start playing.

But to be honest with you... if you don't like him... it is what it is. I'm willing to see where this all leads to and hope that it all works for the best.

I like the kid and his potential overall. Just because I'm critical of him doesn't mean I've written him off. I'm still a big Bamba supporter. Just open to the responsibility of his development being shared between Cliff and himself.

Gotcha bro. We'll see man and hope for the best! Crossing fingers and toes that he becomes an anchor in the middle.... and their vision of what he can be works out.

[tiderulz]

maybe, but it also lets you know what a player might be capable of early on. instead of waiting years to see if a player is going to pan out or not. not saying make them a starter, but give decent amount of minute.

yes, but first, second and third year you could see he was volume scoring and not as good as raw ppg. year 3 for Bamba, what can you honestly say Bamba is or isnt good at?

[jonbob17]

On Sam Vecenie's podcast this week, they were covering Eastern Conference teams:
On the Magic, he said something along the lines of this will be the team he watches the least this year.

He did say that the Magic are very well coached. Called Clifford a top ten coach in the NBA.

I agree, just think Clifford was mismatched with the missing talent on this team. The FO miscalculated and thought the rebuild was done, and hired a coach that will win games, and extract all the effort from its players. Effort and hustle only take you so far. Talent, skill, depth, and construction are the areas we are deficient.

ESPN called the Magic's 1st half schedule the easiest in the league. I have little doubt we arrive at the trade deadline close enough to .500 to be within striking range of the 8th seed, and we will continue down the prescribed path.

[Skin]

well Kawhi Leonard didn't turn into star until his 5th year.

He was Finals MVP in year 3 though. A year he was Defensive second team. And he was a Rookie first teamer.



..

I only used that as allusion of what people were saying about Gordon and his allstar breakout that was always scheaduled to happen- next year.

Clifford suggested Gordon will play a lot at SF. All-Star year coming bro

[pepe1991]

maybe, but it also lets you know what a player might be capable of early on. instead of waiting years to see if a player is going to pan out or not. not saying make them a starter, but give decent amount of minute.

yes, but first, second and third year you could see he was volume scoring and not as good as raw ppg. year 3 for Bamba, what can you honestly say Bamba is or isnt good at?

He isn't good passer, isn't good pick&roll big, isn't good FT shooter nor ever gets there and he isn't in good shape nor he ever was.

There is nothing new that you would discover about player by playing him 10 mpg more. Given his injury list, he would probably be hurt even more.

Did year 3 of Hezonja and unexpected, yet totally overblown burst of helped him reach new highs just because he was "unleashed" ? Guy cought some fire for few games, got down to earth, by the end of a year he was what he was all 2 years prior. Bad defender than can't shoot and has no purpose on offense or defense.

Just like years of starting Payton did nothing for him. We knew he can't shoot 30 games into a rookie year. After year 2 it was obvious he will never be worth anything in modern basketball.


Took hinkie year, took Magic 3 years to evaluate basically same type of player. (Payton/MCW).

There is just huge gap what people belive when it willl happen when player is "unleashed" and what actually happends.
99,99% of time nothing happends. Thon Maker was always under excuse "stuck on elite team, can't show what he is made of" Goes to Pistons, gets 20 mpg... and averages 5 points on 37% FG.

Lonzo needs team of shooters, will make everybody around him better....well.. 3 years of data base says- not really. He plays like replacment level talent who has inflated RPGs and APGs because that's what he chaces .LIke Rondo after time runned him over and his game become obsolete.


Nerlens Noel.. can't play with Okafor, he is hurting him, he isn't that bad... Goes to Dallas and averages less points and less rebounds than he did with Okafor and 76ers.

Okafor can just roll off bed and average 20 and 10 but can't because of Embiid... well never rolled off bed and averaged 12 ppg in his life after.

Let's not even go to " just need jumper to be elite" rabbithole. (MKG, Fultz, Stanley Johnson, Winslow, MCW, Ben Simmons...). Well i just need to become afro american, grow 5 inches, gain 40 pounds of muscles, and i'm basically Lebron. Sounds simple. Doesn't work.

There is lot of dumb stuff fans like to say and be all angry when teams don't grant their wishes, but most of the time when they are proven wrong ( and fans are wrong in 95% of cases) they just play dumb and find new thing to be angry about.
There was period of time where this place was conviced Bismack Biyombo is better basketball player than NIkola Vučević.
Do i need to go on?

[pepe1991]

Because chasing stats on 25 wins teams means you are great...

There are lot of guys who had great rookie years because they were good, HOWEVER nowdays you have group of young players that are force fed into fat counting stats because either
a) there is no better alternative ( by design )
b) it's good for crappy team and marketing

Wiggins was painfully bad offensive player in rookie year who lead team in shots per game, after Kevin Martin had balls to shoot more, so they traded him not not hurt image of new Kobe...eh..

Evans was boxing out his own teammates when he was chasing his numbers

Rookie Javale Mcgee missed 2 layups on purpose to get triple double.

Young guys and numbers

it has almost no value if you don't understand context. Some of this guys are being unleashed way too early and grow too much in their minds and think they are some new stars based on nothing but what yes- men around them say. Brandon Jennings was out there dropping 50 in rookie year, guy thought he is new Iverson. I hate to whip my boy Hezonja nowdays a lot, but he is definition of delusinal , underdeveloped prospect who thought he is s*** because everybody around him told he is a s****.

Scouts, coaches were saying he is athletic marvel and deadeye shooter... Where he was really solid athlete for his age and kind a streaky- mediocre shooter all his life prior to nba.

On other hand you have Luka who is most humble person out there, who doesn't give a damn about anything, lives and breaths basketball, in his free time he is streaming other basketball game and who simply has mentality of "normal" person. Where this new kids have mentality of Dan Blazerian.

[tiderulz]

On other hand you have Luka who is most humble person out there, who doesn't give a damn about anything, lives and breaths basketball, in his free time he is streaming other basketball game and who simply has mentality of "normal" person. Where this new kids have mentality of Dan Blazerian.

lol, dude, Luka isnt the "most humble". He is just as much a diva as the rest, especially on the court where he cries every miss he has with anyone near him. and he has earned that right, kid's just 21 and one of the top players in the NBA

[pepe1991]

Harden after hitting every strip club ever in USA:




This league is going down fast.

[pepe1991]

On other hand you have Luka who is most humble person out there, who doesn't give a damn about anything, lives and breaths basketball, in his free time he is streaming other basketball game and who simply has mentality of "normal" person. Where this new kids have mentality of Dan Blazerian.

lol, dude, Luka isnt the "most humble". He is just as much a diva as the rest, especially on the court where he cries every miss he has with anyone near him. and he has earned that right, kid's just 21 and one of the top players in the NBA

i don't find complaining to refs that much of a "diva" move. Guy is pro, he is doing that for years now. Most good players talk to refs during a game to get some sort of leverage. Even Duncan did it, find him diva too? Manu was probably most refs- inganged talker in western conference for years. Very humble player

When i say humble i mean his approach toward basketball, life and fans.
How many nba young stars just goes out and say " sure that player is way better than me, like we are not even close" ? Not really anybody. Even if they are compared with superstars.

Well, Luka about Curry

“He’s shooting way better than me,” Luka Doncic said. “He’s a better player. He’s been in the league a long time, he’s somebody that everybody looks up [to], everybody wants to play like him. I remember last year after the draft, I practiced once with him, and it was crazy. He couldn’t miss. He can’t miss. And that was like something I’ll always remember — practice with him.”

https://www.reddit.com/r/Mavericks/comments/dzcuux/i_met_luka_in_a_club_in_madrid_when_he_was_17_i/

[tiderulz]

On other hand you have Luka who is most humble person out there, who doesn't give a damn about anything, lives and breaths basketball, in his free time he is streaming other basketball game and who simply has mentality of "normal" person. Where this new kids have mentality of Dan Blazerian.

lol, dude, Luka isnt the "most humble". He is just as much a diva as the rest, especially on the court where he cries every miss he has with anyone near him. and he has earned that right, kid's just 21 and one of the top players in the NBA

i don't find complaining to refs that much of a "diva" move. Guy is pro, he is doing that for years now. Most good players talk to refs during a game to get some sort of leverage. Even Duncan did it, find him diva too? Manu was probably most refs- inganged talker in western conference for years. Very humble player

When i say humble i mean his approach toward basketball, life and fans.
How many nba young stars just goes out and say " sure that player is way better than me, like we are not even close" ? Not really anybody. Even if they are compared with superstars.

Well, Luka about Curry

“He’s shooting way better than me,” Luka Doncic said. “He’s a better player. He’s been in the league a long time, he’s somebody that everybody looks up [to], everybody wants to play like him. I remember last year after the draft, I practiced once with him, and it was crazy. He couldn’t miss. He can’t miss. And that was like something I’ll always remember — practice with him.”

https://www.reddit.com/r/Mavericks/comments/dzcuux/i_met_luka_in_a_club_in_madrid_when_he_was_17_i/

he is talking between plays while screaming about it during action. And Curry is a much better shooter than him.

[pepe1991]

oh and it looks like our buddy Mario Hezonja didn't menage to get any NBA offer and now is going to Greece.

If he only averaged 25 mpg as a rookie,allstar by now.. Where is my green font at?

[VFX]

I’m not really sure what the argument is that a few people are claiming.

Are people for or against terrible teams playing their rookies and winning ROY? If anything, it at least boosts their trade value once they know exactly what kind of players they are...

Nobody is really “making” the argument that those guys weren’t capable of putting up numbers in bad situations. However, it’s also not like those franchises have many other options to begin with. What was the alternative? Sit them on the bench behind vets and devalue them for an already bad team?

You play top picks to see what you have. You want to see how they react to adversity and the adjustments to dealing with being a professional basketball player. 76ers, for all their criticisms, got top dollar for their mediocre talent with inflated numbers. Orlando does the opposite and lets dust collect before they have any value left whatsoever on large deals.

[SOUL]

Yeah I think the points people are trying to prove is working against their argument. We lost a #5 pick for free, MCW was the 11th pick that got ROY on numbers everybody saw were inflated and still was able to be traded for a #10 pick from the Suns. Philly **** up by trading that for Zhaire Smith but it easily could've been Mikal for MCW when it was all said and done.

[Xatticus]

oh and it looks like our buddy Mario Hezonja didn't menage to get any NBA offer and now is going to Greece.

If he only averaged 25 mpg as a rookie,allstar by now.. Where is my green font at?

It worked with Vucevic didn't it? He was really crappy for a really long time. We committed to his development and we were rewarded with a decent player that we then grossly overpaid.

But I get where you are coming from... we already have a collection of guys that can pile up stats while losing games, why bother replacing them with new faces that pile up stats and lose games? I think the hope that most of us harbor is that we eventually acquire and develop someone that can pile up stats on a team that actually wins games. All I ask is that we afford our high-ceiling talents the same opportunities that we afforded the slow and unathletic players that currently comprise our core. Or am I aiming too high?

[drsd]

yes, but first, second and third year you could see he was volume scoring and not as good as raw ppg. year 3 for Bamba, what can you honestly say Bamba is or isnt good at?

Frankly, Bamba needs to perform this year; or it is fair to tag him with a Bust label.

[pepe1991]

Yeah I think the points people are trying to prove is working against their argument. We lost a #5 pick for free, MCW was the 11th pick that got ROY on numbers everybody saw were inflated and still was able to be traded for a #10 pick from the Suns. Philly **** up by trading that for Zhaire Smith but it easily could've been Mikal for MCW when it was all said and done.

it was more complicated than that. It was 3 teams trade that included Suns, so it was not Buck that were sending pick for MCW, it was Suns. And they didn't send their own pick but Lakers one,and that pick had SOOOO MANY CHANCES to actually turn very very valuable, but never did. And than they ended up with Mikal Bridges. Traded for Zahire who is probably guy with least amount of luck in nba history.

This kind a says more about how trades for picks turn into dumpster fire easy. That pick could landed in 2017 5th and they could go home with De'aaron Fox or Isaac, instad... Mikal Brdiges

Also fans and "experst" were outraged how Hinkie dared to trade ROY.

viewtopic.php?f=25&t=1378875

Just read how much ingaged fans were about even idea that Payton can be ROY .

Now it's easy to brush it off with 5 years of hindsight, knowing that MCW be bounced off nba 3 years after winning ROY ,but in a moment, it was huge outrage how dares any GM " trash" players like that.

[pepe1991]

oh and it looks like our buddy Mario Hezonja didn't menage to get any NBA offer and now is going to Greece.

If he only averaged 25 mpg as a rookie,allstar by now.. Where is my green font at?

It worked with Vucevic didn't it? He was really crappy for a really long time. We committed to his development and we were rewarded with a decent player that we then grossly overpaid.

But I get where you are coming from... we already have a collection of guys that can pile up stats while losing games, why bother replacing them with new faces that pile up stats and lose games? I think the hope that most of us harbor is that we eventually acquire and develop someone that can pile up stats on a team that actually wins games. All I ask is that we afford our high-ceiling talents the same opportunities that we afforded the slow and unathletic players that currently comprise our core. Or am I aiming too high?

Wtf are you talking about?
Vuc averaged 13 ppg, 12 rpg, 2 apg, 1 bpg on 53,4% TS in his second year in his nba career, including streach of end of a year where he was 20 -14 guy.

Granted, his TS% always tanked due his inability to draw any fouls whatsoever and he expended his 3 point range very late, but if we talk about his production in context of time, 22 years old, 13ppg, 12 rpg, 51,9% eFG guy in 2012-13 season, where league's averge eFG is 48,7% -- yea, that's a really solid starter at least.


Adding more context to his numbers: 2012-13

With 13 ppg he was 64th scorer in nba and SECOND best rebounder.

64th scorer in 2020 averaged 15,8 ppg. So , no, he was never terrible, by today's standards your "terrible" for him would be guy who has 16ppg, 14 rpg and is 22? Is that what you are implying? How does that expetations look in co-relation with 5ppg second year center who you here blame coach for not "developing and playing" ?


This is like taking credit of "development" of Tobias Harris. One day he can't come off bench for Bucks, 48 hours later he is 17ppg scorer. Magic really did some magic in that period ? Or guy was always good, just didn't have fair oportunity on other team?