Official Speculation Thread '20-'21 VI: "I like this team"

[Xatticus]

oh and it looks like our buddy Mario Hezonja didn't menage to get any NBA offer and now is going to Greece.

If he only averaged 25 mpg as a rookie,allstar by now.. Where is my green font at?

It worked with Vucevic didn't it? He was really crappy for a really long time. We committed to his development and we were rewarded with a decent player that we then grossly overpaid.

But I get where you are coming from... we already have a collection of guys that can pile up stats while losing games, why bother replacing them with new faces that pile up stats and lose games? I think the hope that most of us harbor is that we eventually acquire and develop someone that can pile up stats on a team that actually wins games. All I ask is that we afford our high-ceiling talents the same opportunities that we afforded the slow and unathletic players that currently comprise our core. Or am I aiming too high?

Wtf are you talking about?
Vuc averaged 13 ppg, 12 rpg, 2 apg, 1 bpg on 53,4% TS in his second year in his nba career, including streach of end of a year where he was 20 -14 guy.

Granted, his TS% always tanked due his inability to draw any fouls whatsoever and he expended his 3 point range very late, but if we talk about his production in context of time, 22 years old, 13ppg, 12 rpg, 51,9% eFG guy in 2012-13 season, where league's averge eFG is 48,7% -- yea, that's a really solid starter at least.


Adding more context to his numbers: 2012-13

With 13 ppg he was 64th scorer in nba and SECOND best rebounder.

64th scorer in 2020 averaged 15,8 ppg. So , no, he was never terrible, by today's standards your "terrible" for him would be guy who has 16ppg, 14 rpg and is 22? Is that what you are implying? How does that expetations look in co-relation with 5ppg second year center who you here blame coach for not "developing and playing" ?


This is like taking credit of "development" of Tobias Harris. One day he can't come off bench for Bucks, 48 hours later he is 17ppg scorer. Magic really did some magic in that period ? Or guy was always good, just didn't have fair oportunity on other team?

And how do you suppose that team lost 62 games? Because we got murdered when Vucevic was on the floor (-8.3 net rating).

He averaged 13.1 points per game and 11.9 rebounds per game because he played 33.2 minutes per game. Fun fact: when you average 36 minutes per game, your per game averages mirror your per 36 minute averages. Bamba averaged 13.6 points per 36 minutes, 12.4 rebounds per 36 minutes, posted more than 3x as many blocks per 36 minutes, and posted a higher TS%, while posting a +0.5 net rating.

Bamba was objectively superior this past season to who Vucevic was in that first season with Orlando and he was younger to boot, yet you are the primary driving force on this forum proclaiming Bamba as a bust. Surely you must appreciate the contradiction here? What advantage did Vucevic have? He was gifted opportunties in Orlando instead of being tucked away behind an aging Elton Brand and a 23-year-old Spencer Hawes on a Philadelphia team that was preoccupied with reaching the playoffs.

What was the ultimate fate of that Philadelphia team? They tore it down a year later for a full-on rebuild which elevated them into the upper half of the Eastern Conference. Meanwhile, nine years later we are clinging to a 42-win season and two playoff wins so that we can snicker at the present predicaments of the Knicks and Cavs.

[pepe1991]

It worked with Vucevic didn't it? He was really crappy for a really long time. We committed to his development and we were rewarded with a decent player that we then grossly overpaid.

But I get where you are coming from... we already have a collection of guys that can pile up stats while losing games, why bother replacing them with new faces that pile up stats and lose games? I think the hope that most of us harbor is that we eventually acquire and develop someone that can pile up stats on a team that actually wins games. All I ask is that we afford our high-ceiling talents the same opportunities that we afforded the slow and unathletic players that currently comprise our core. Or am I aiming too high?

Wtf are you talking about?
Vuc averaged 13 ppg, 12 rpg, 2 apg, 1 bpg on 53,4% TS in his second year in his nba career, including streach of end of a year where he was 20 -14 guy.

Granted, his TS% always tanked due his inability to draw any fouls whatsoever and he expended his 3 point range very late, but if we talk about his production in context of time, 22 years old, 13ppg, 12 rpg, 51,9% eFG guy in 2012-13 season, where league's averge eFG is 48,7% -- yea, that's a really solid starter at least.


Adding more context to his numbers: 2012-13

With 13 ppg he was 64th scorer in nba and SECOND best rebounder.

64th scorer in 2020 averaged 15,8 ppg. So , no, he was never terrible, by today's standards your "terrible" for him would be guy who has 16ppg, 14 rpg and is 22? Is that what you are implying? How does that expetations look in co-relation with 5ppg second year center who you here blame coach for not "developing and playing" ?


This is like taking credit of "development" of Tobias Harris. One day he can't come off bench for Bucks, 48 hours later he is 17ppg scorer. Magic really did some magic in that period ? Or guy was always good, just didn't have fair oportunity on other team?

And how do you suppose that team lost 62 games? Because we got murdered when Vucevic was on the floor (-8.3 net rating).

He averaged 13.1 points per game and 11.9 rebounds per game because he played 33.2 minutes per game. Fun fact: when you average 36 minutes per game, your per game averages mirror your per 36 minute averages. Bamba averaged 13.6 points per 36 minutes, 12.4 rebounds per 36 minutes, posted more than 3x as many blocks per 36 minutes, and posted a higher TS%, while posting a +0.5 net rating.

Bamba was objectively superior this past season to who Vucevic was in that first season with Orlando and he was younger to boot, yet you are the primary driving force on this forum proclaiming Bamba as a bust. Surely you must appreciate the contradiction here? What advantage did Vucevic have? He was gifted opportunties in Orlando instead of being tucked away behind an aging Elton Brand and a 23-year-old Spencer Hawes on a Philadelphia team that was preoccupied with reaching the playoffs.

What was the ultimate fate of that Philadelphia team? They tore it down a year later for a full-on rebuild which elevated them into the upper half of the Eastern Conference. Meanwhile, nine years later we are clinging to a 42-win season and two playoff wins so that we can snicker at the present predicaments of the Knicks and Cavs.

Nice way to cherry pick stats. SO you won't mention that Orlando Magic, as a team had net rating of -7,4?


Fun fact: per 36 min almost never translated into actual 36 min production. If it does, Boban Marjanovic was always better player than Michael Jordan.

This is looking at numbers without understanding of any context.

Bamba played just handful of games, limited role, so his net rating isn't worth anything.

DJ Augustin had best net rating among Magic rotation players last year, but you, among all people,who here is now harping Bamba's net rating, was one of biggest crybabies when it comes to talking down about DJ. So see how your own claims contracit each other with every post?

Bamba was objectively superior this past season to who Vucevic was in that first season with Orlando and he was younger to boot, yet you are the primary driving force on this forum proclaiming Bamba as a bust.

Congratulation. You just used 21-61 team , healthy, young productive starter, compared it with solid playoff team backup/deep bench/ never healthy player, used net rating as only measurable variable and draw " objective" conclusion?

You are parody of yourself. It's sad really.

Ok, i'll play dumb for a while.
Lebron James rookie year -2,0 net rating.
Kevin Jones ( who? ) - +9,2 net rating as rookie

it's obvious that Kevin Jones made Cavs much better team during his rookie year than Lebron. Case closed, Kevin Jones > Lebron.


second:
Since your per 36 is now somehow actually a thing, okey, whatever, is this star player to you ?



I'll give you hint: boucned off nba in 2 and half years. Has 9 and half fingers.

[JBSouthpaw]

[PrimeThyme]

I don't know if there is much left to say about the Bamba we've seen thus far. I think one thing most of us can certainly agree on though is that this is the do or die season for him in terms of his future with this team. If he can't find minutes again, or simply can't handle them when he is out there due to his conditioning, I personally think it's safe to say that this team will move on by next offseason.

[Xatticus]

Wtf are you talking about?
Vuc averaged 13 ppg, 12 rpg, 2 apg, 1 bpg on 53,4% TS in his second year in his nba career, including streach of end of a year where he was 20 -14 guy.

Granted, his TS% always tanked due his inability to draw any fouls whatsoever and he expended his 3 point range very late, but if we talk about his production in context of time, 22 years old, 13ppg, 12 rpg, 51,9% eFG guy in 2012-13 season, where league's averge eFG is 48,7% -- yea, that's a really solid starter at least.


Adding more context to his numbers: 2012-13

With 13 ppg he was 64th scorer in nba and SECOND best rebounder.

64th scorer in 2020 averaged 15,8 ppg. So , no, he was never terrible, by today's standards your "terrible" for him would be guy who has 16ppg, 14 rpg and is 22? Is that what you are implying? How does that expetations look in co-relation with 5ppg second year center who you here blame coach for not "developing and playing" ?


This is like taking credit of "development" of Tobias Harris. One day he can't come off bench for Bucks, 48 hours later he is 17ppg scorer. Magic really did some magic in that period ? Or guy was always good, just didn't have fair oportunity on other team?

And how do you suppose that team lost 62 games? Because we got murdered when Vucevic was on the floor (-8.3 net rating).

He averaged 13.1 points per game and 11.9 rebounds per game because he played 33.2 minutes per game. Fun fact: when you average 36 minutes per game, your per game averages mirror your per 36 minute averages. Bamba averaged 13.6 points per 36 minutes, 12.4 rebounds per 36 minutes, posted more than 3x as many blocks per 36 minutes, and posted a higher TS%, while posting a +0.5 net rating.

Bamba was objectively superior this past season to who Vucevic was in that first season with Orlando and he was younger to boot, yet you are the primary driving force on this forum proclaiming Bamba as a bust. Surely you must appreciate the contradiction here? What advantage did Vucevic have? He was gifted opportunties in Orlando instead of being tucked away behind an aging Elton Brand and a 23-year-old Spencer Hawes on a Philadelphia team that was preoccupied with reaching the playoffs.

What was the ultimate fate of that Philadelphia team? They tore it down a year later for a full-on rebuild which elevated them into the upper half of the Eastern Conference. Meanwhile, nine years later we are clinging to a 42-win season and two playoff wins so that we can snicker at the present predicaments of the Knicks and Cavs.

Nice way to cherry pick stats. SO you won't mention that Orlando Magic, as a team had net rating of -7,4?


Fun fact: per 36 min almost never translated into actual 36 min production. If it does, Boban Marjanovic was always better player than Michael Jordan.

This is looking at numbers without understanding of any context.

Bamba played just handful of games, limited role, so his net rating isn't worth anything.

DJ Augustin had best net rating among Magic rotation players last year, but you, among all people,who here is now harping Bamba's net rating, was one of biggest crybabies when it comes to talking down about DJ. So see how your own claims contracit each other with every post?

Bamba was objectively superior this past season to who Vucevic was in that first season with Orlando and he was younger to boot, yet you are the primary driving force on this forum proclaiming Bamba as a bust.

Congratulation. You just used 21-61 team , healthy, young productive starter, compared it with solid playoff team backup/deep bench/ never healthy player, used net rating as only measurable variable and draw " objective" conclusion?

You are parody of yourself. It's sad really.

Ok, i'll play dumb for a while.
Lebron James rookie year -2,0 net rating.
Kevin Jones ( who? ) - +9,2 net rating as rookie

it's obvious that Kevin Jones made Cavs much better team during his rookie year than Lebron. Case closed, Kevin Jones > Lebron.


second:
Since your per 36 is now somehow actually a thing, okey, whatever, is this star player to you ?



I'll give you hint: boucned off nba in 2 and half years. Has 9 and half fingers.

Wait... you're just now starting to play dumb? You'll have to let me know when you stop because I doubt I'll be able to tell otherwise.

No. Per 36 is not my thing. I give zero **** about how many points, rebounds, assists, steals, etc... that someone averages beyond how it actually impacts the team. I care about whether or not someone actually makes the team better when they are on the floor. Remember... I'm the guy that really likes Mikal Bridges. I'm not the one championing players on 20, 23, or 25-win teams based upon their per game averages and then conjuring up a list of players that average a bunch of points on bad teams to criticize them. That's just too hypocritical for my taste.

No. I'm not saying that playing Vucevic all of those minutes back in his early tenure with the organization was a mistake. Quite to the contrary. We had nothing better to do with those minutes at that time than to develop whatever talent we had. I also wholeheartedly supported his first extension with the organization. That doesn't change the fact that he was routinely getting his ass kicked every night. There is just no evidence to suggest that he was even an average starter until around age 26, though you really only have a couple years of data that portrays him as clearly above average.

Of course that 2013/14 team had a terrible net rating. The guy that played the most minutes (Vucevic) had a terrible net rating. He wasn't the worst player on the team, but he was pretty damned close and he probably did as much damage to the product on the floor as anyone on that team because of the additional minutes. It goes without saying that it was an awful team, but if you want to know why it only won 20 games, you need look no further than Vucevic. That's really not the point. I'm not the guy that goes around swinging a bust hammer at every prospect we bring in. I'm the guy preaching patience. We gave Vucevic every opportunity in the world to improve and he did. It took a very long time and we lost a hell of a lot of games, but he did. That's what happens when you commit to the development of players. We then made the mistake of giving him an absurd contract and locking him in long term to a team that had no chance of being competitive and that had just drafted a center with more potential instead of cashing in when he might've had some value. But hey... stupid is as stupid does.

I'm not arguing that Bamba is great. I'm not even arguing that he is good. I'm arguing that we need to wait and see. I'm arguing that we need to commit to his development and that thus far he has shown some encouraging signs of improvement. I'm arguing that it is incredibly stupid to put Birch ahead of him in the depth chart.

And for what it's worth, I stopped bashing Augustin quite a long time ago. Try to keep up. I certainly hammered him in his first year with the team though as he was one of the worst players in the entire league. I'm glad he is gone. I loathed the role he was given with the offense under Clifford. It annoyed the hell out of me that we were letting a 33-year-old dribble the air out of the ball instead of developing the guy that we hope makes us relevant some day. You know... one of the other guys on the roster that you incessantly label a bust. It would've annoyed me every bit as much if we were giving Al Harrington 30 minutes a night at the expense of a 22-year-old Nikola Vucevic, regardless of whether or not it helped us win a couple extra games back in 2013/14.

[Optimus_Steel]

oh and it looks like our buddy Mario Hezonja didn't menage to get any NBA offer and now is going to Greece.

If he only averaged 25 mpg as a rookie,allstar by now.. Where is my green font at?

He was soooo cocky too and delivered crap, big talk no bite.

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[KillMonger]

2015



2020

[Optimus_Steel]

2015



2020

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[j-ragg]

On Sam Vecenie's podcast this week, they were covering Eastern Conference teams:
On the Magic, he said something along the lines of this will be the team he watches the least this year.

Objectively, I think almost everyone would agree outside of Orlando. I’d put us tied in last with Charlotte. Everyone else is either much better or has something much more appealing to watch.

But if you love a good defensive rebound and limited turnover game, we are probably the team to see.

[SOUL]

Technically Mario can't get an offer because he has a year left.. He's on a fun to watch Memphis team now but probably won't get much run there.

[Knightro]

Like I said in the Bamba thread, if Mo is a total unprofessional mess, then so be it. As much as I don't like it, I can understand why a coach feels like he simply can't reward a guy more minutes for not doing the right things.

That said...

If the reason why Birch is playing over Bamba is because Clifford actually thinks Birch is the better basketball player, then Steve is simply a fool.

[RookieStar]

Technically Mario can't get an offer because he has a year left.. He's on a fun to watch Memphis team now but probably won't get much run there.

Wait.. is he in MEM or is he going to Greece?

[Furinkazan]

Like I said in the Bamba thread, if Mo is a total unprofessional mess, then so be it. As much as I don't like it, I can understand why a coach feels like he simply can't reward a guy more minutes for not doing the right things.

That said...

If the reason why Birch is playing over Bamba is because Clifford actually thinks Birch is the better basketball player, then Steve is simply a fool.

He is a vet and he is serviceable It s seems that’s enough for Cliff

[basketballRob]

Fournier selling his Winter Park home.

Read on Twitter

?s=19

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[basketballRob]

If we trade Fournier, AG, Birch, plus multiple picks for Harden, would that put us over the luxury tax threshold next season?

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[Knightro]

If we trade Fournier, AG, Birch, plus multiple picks for Harden, would that put us over the luxury tax threshold next season?

I can’t imagine the Magic have any sort of package of players and picks that would entice the Rockets to trade them Harden.

But if they did, then the luxury tax genuinely shouldn’t/wouldn’t be a consideration.

You go into the tax to acquire a star as necessary.

[T-Cat]

I say if and when Giannis becomes available, Orlando should offer the kitchen sink for him! ( Even for a rental)

I can see Milwaukee wanting Fultz, AG, Fournier (expiring), JI (maybe), Bamba, Okeke/ Cole

Try to offer Giannis another star player in free agency next summer.

[MagicFan101]

I say if and when Giannis becomes available, Orlando should offer the kitchen sink for him! ( Even for a rental)

I can see Milwaukee wanting Fultz, AG, Fournier (expiring), JI (maybe), Bamba, Okeke/ Cole

Try to offer Giannis another star player in free agency next summer.

lol, you need to stop with this.

1) why would Milwaukee want what doesn’t work for us?

2) why couldn’t Milwaukee just promise him this imaginary future star player in upcoming free agency?

... we are not getting Giannis. Stop.

[Dub_Sax]

If we trade Fournier, AG, Birch, plus multiple picks for Harden, would that put us over the luxury tax threshold next season?

I can’t imagine the Magic have any sort of package of players and picks that would entice the Rockets to trade them Harden.

But if they did, then the luxury tax genuinely shouldn’t/wouldn’t be a consideration.

You go into the tax to acquire a star as necessary.

Honestly, if I had my pick of a disgruntled star guard from Houston, I would have chose Westbrook, not Harden.

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[rcklsscognition]

Someone somewhere else mentioned this was a house Fournier planned to renovate but has instead moved closer to downtown. Not indicative of a trade.