RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #28 (Dwyane Wade)

[Doctor MJ]

I meant that Gervin wasn't similar to Drexler at all. Sure, he didn't shoot threes but he played mostly off-ball. He was much different than Drexler. When I made my long Gervin video, I was shocked how little Gervin handled the ball for a high scorer:

Ah, I get what you're saying. Good point.

I would still say he tended to play a good deal differently from Miller/Allen, but you're right he was also a good deal different from Drexler.

[Cavsfansince84]

I will say that Barry having a positive TS Add for his first 9 seasons tends to put him in a different category for me from Havlicek, but you're right that as their careers went along, that dynamic shifted more in favor of Havlicek.

I'll agree that Havlicek was considerably stronger on defense - I tend to see Barry as a positive on defense, but Havlicek was an all-timer.

Chemistry goes to Havlicek, but I never got the impression that Barry's temper got too much in the way of his team thriving. Feel free to show me I'm wrong. I guess I tend to think more that the basketball world hated Barry but his team appreciated him.

Longevity to Havlicek yes, but Barry's was good as well.

I would add that while Havlicek has a positive reputation for passing, I do tend to have Barry in a different category there. As mentioned, in that championship season, Barry was the brain through which the entire team worked around as they platooned in smaller minutes. I'm not saying definitively Havlicek couldn't have done that, but I've never been prepared to assert that he could.

I will say I think Barry was more talented offensively. What impressed me while doing more research on him is that when he came back to the nba he was less efficient yet those Warriors teams while not being that talented became very efficient in terms of ORtg with Barry averaging 6+apg every year from 74-77. Their ORtg is 11th the first year he gets there in 73 then improves to 2nd, 2nd(win title), 2nd, and 4th. So he obviously was very good at leading offenses as both the primary scorer and playmaker. That impressed me. I imagine that Barry had very strong gravity for his era even without a 3 pt shot.

[WestGOAT]

Since I saw Wade and Harden being mentioned, and also Reggie Miller and Ray Allen, I decided to have a look at their playoff performance.

I was particularly interested in how they performed in close playoff games in their prime years*: minimum of 25 minutes played and the final result of a game within 6 points, all arbitrary criteria of course, but I think many of us have a soft spot for players performing well in these type of situations.

Wade, from 2005 to 2010, 15 games played:

Code: Select all

        MP   PTS  AST  TOV   TS%  rDRtg
mean  42.8  30.6  6.4  5.3  58.6   -1.4
std    6.1   8.7  3.5  2.1  11.9    3.9

raw data for Wade:

Spoiler:

Code: Select all

   Series  Year  Opp  Outcome    MP  PTS  AST  TOV   TS%  rDRtg
0     EC1  2005  NJN        3  51.8   22    8    9  45.3    4.4
1     ECS  2005  WAS        6  40.8   31   15    7  66.4    4.4
2     ECS  2005  WAS        4  42.5   42    4    6  71.2    4.4
3     ECF  2005  DET        6  42.5   40    6    4  61.7   -6.6
4     ECF  2005  DET       -6  43.0   20    4    5  43.3   -6.6
5     EC1  2006  CHI        5  44.6   30   11    4  53.5   -0.6
6     EC1  2006  CHI       -6  45.3   20   10    5  40.4   -0.6
7     ECS  2006  NJN        1  43.9   21    6    7  45.7    2.2
8     ECF  2006  DET        5  26.7   25    5    5  83.6   -2.2
9     ECF  2006  DET       -4  46.3   32    5    9  68.0   -2.2
10    FIN  2006  DAL        2  43.1   42    2    1  61.9   -2.2
11    FIN  2006  DAL        1  50.1   43    4    3  55.1   -2.2
12    FIN  2006  DAL        3  45.4   36    5    5  66.1   -2.2
13    EC1  2007  CHI       -5  33.0   21    3    5  55.0   -4.1
14    EC1  2010  BOS       -2  43.2   34    8    5  62.2   -6.9

Harden, from 2013 to 2020, 30 games played:

Code: Select all

        MP   PTS  AST  TOV   TS%  rDRtg
mean  40.7  31.6  6.9  4.8  58.6   -1.6
std    3.6   7.7  2.5  2.2  12.0    3.9

raw data for Harden:

Spoiler:

Code: Select all

   Series  Year  Opp  Outcome    MP  PTS  AST  TOV   TS%     rDRtg
0     WC1  2013  OKC       -3  45.3   36    6    6  54.9 -6.400000
1     WC1  2013  OKC       -3  43.7   30    6    2  52.4 -6.400000
2     WC1  2013  OKC        2  35.2   15    3   10  48.3 -6.400000
3     WC1  2014  POR       -2  45.0   27    6    4  41.7  3.700000
4     WC1  2014  POR        5  49.6   37    6    1  47.5  3.700000
5     WC1  2014  POR       -3  42.4   28    6    5  57.1  3.700000
6     WC1  2014  POR       -1  41.9   34    6    4  83.8  3.700000
7     WC1  2015  DAL        2  36.1   42    9    5  77.5  6.000003
8     WCS  2015  LAC        6  35.0   32    7    7  67.8  0.078570
9     WCF  2015  GSW       -4  41.8   28    9    5  61.8 -6.761905
10    WCF  2015  GSW       -1  41.0   38    9    2  74.8 -6.761905
11    WC1  2016  GSW        1  43.8   35    9    4  56.7 -4.075000
12    WC1  2017  OKC        4  37.4   35    8    7  67.8  0.620000
13    WC1  2017  OKC       -2  38.3   44    6    7  76.1  0.620000
14    WC1  2017  OKC        4  39.3   16    8    7  41.9  0.620000
15    WC1  2017  OKC        6  37.8   34    4    5  52.3  0.620000
16    WCS  2017  SAS       -3  43.4   33   10    9  60.0  0.618749
17    WC1  2018  MIN        3  40.9   44    8    3  73.4  2.420000
18    WCF  2018  GSW        3  43.4   30    4    2  53.2 -7.133333
19    WCF  2018  GSW        4  39.0   19    4    6  38.1 -7.133333
20    WC1  2019  UTA        3  38.8   22   10    4  40.7 -6.320001
21    WCS  2019  GSW       -4  38.7   35    6    4  51.2 -1.081819
22    WCS  2019  GSW       -6  34.4   29    4    6  63.2 -1.081819
23    WCS  2019  GSW        5  45.4   41    6    3  57.7 -1.081819
24    WCS  2019  GSW        4  40.0   38    4    2  58.4 -1.081819
25    WCS  2019  GSW       -5  44.9   31    8    2  76.0 -1.081819
26    WCS  2019  GSW       -5  38.9   35    5    6  57.8 -1.081819
27    WC1  2020  OKC       -3  42.8   32   15    6  58.8 -3.085714
28    WC1  2020  OKC       -4  38.6   32    7    5  62.7 -3.085714
29    WC1  2020  OKC        2  37.1   17    9    4  44.8 -3.085714

Reggie, from 1994 to 2000, 30 games played:

Code: Select all

        MP   PTS  AST  TOV   TS%  rDRtg
mean  38.8  23.2  2.3  1.7  59.3   -1.8
std    4.2   7.0  1.6  1.7  10.4    4.3

raw data for Reggie:

Spoiler:

Code: Select all

   Series  Year  Opp  Outcome    MP  PTS  AST  TOV   TS%  rDRtg
0     EC1  1994  ORL        1  38.0   24    4    2  60.7    4.0
1     EC1  1994  ORL        2  37.0   32    3    0  65.3    4.0
2     ECF  1994  NYK        6  40.0   31    3    0  58.8   -5.3
3     ECF  1994  NYK       -4  35.0   25    0    2  60.9   -5.3
4     ECS  1995  NYK        2  33.0   31    4    0  63.0   -3.8
5     ECS  1995  NYK        2  44.0   26    1    6  57.1   -3.8
6     ECS  1995  NYK       -1  37.0   23    6    1  50.8   -3.8
7     ECS  1995  NYK        2  40.0   29    3    1  66.0   -3.8
8     ECF  1995  ORL       -4  34.0   26    2    1  54.0    4.0
9     ECF  1995  ORL       -5  40.0   37    2    2  81.0    4.0
10    ECF  1995  ORL        5  40.0   26    1    3  62.0    4.0
11    ECF  1995  ORL        1  42.0   23    0    3  66.4    4.0
12    ECF  1995  ORL       -2  40.0   21    1    4  62.2    4.0
13    EC1  1996  ATL       -2  31.0   29    1    0  61.4    1.6
14    EC1  1998  CLE        6  43.6   18    2    0  48.3   -0.3
15    EC1  1998  CLE        6  38.0   19    3    8  53.5   -0.3
16    ECF  1998  CHI       -6  38.1   16    0    1  49.4   -7.0
17    ECF  1998  CHI       -6  41.4   19    3    1  53.3   -7.0
18    ECF  1998  CHI        2  33.1   28    2    1  79.4   -7.0
19    ECF  1998  CHI        2  42.2   15    3    0  63.1   -7.0
20    ECF  1998  CHI        3  41.3    8    0    1  27.9   -7.0
21    ECF  1998  CHI       -5  40.8   22    4    2  74.5   -7.0
22    EC1  1999  MIL        1  40.1   30    1    3  51.8    6.0
23    ECS  1999  PHI        4  37.4   18    3    2  68.8   -1.9
24    ECS  1999  PHI        3  37.6   17    2    0  44.7   -1.9
25    ECS  1999  PHI        3  39.2   23    5    3  57.3   -1.9
26    ECF  1999  NYK       -3  32.6   19    3    0  64.4   -7.4
27    ECF  1999  NYK        2  38.5   16    1    1  49.1   -7.4
28    ECF  1999  NYK       -1  35.9   12    3    3  60.7   -7.4
29    EC1  2000  MIL        3  45.3   21    3    1  45.1   -1.6
30    EC1  2000  MIL        1  38.9   41    1    2  69.7   -1.6
31    ECS  2000  PHI        6  39.5   19    6    1  53.5    2.4
32    ECS  2000  PHI       -2  29.0   16    4    1  68.0    2.4
33    ECF  2000  NYK        4  36.0   19    0    0  51.3   -4.0
34    ECF  2000  NYK       -3  37.3   19    1    2  69.0   -4.0
35    ECF  2000  NYK       -2  46.4   24    1    2  51.2   -4.0
36    FIN  2000  LAL       -2  50.0   35    3    1  72.1    1.6
37    FIN  2000  LAL       -5  40.4   25    3    2  56.6    1.6

Ray, from 2000 to 2011, 35 games played:

Code: Select all

        MP   PTS  AST  TOV   TS%  rDRtg
mean  41.5  19.1  3.1  2.1  56.5   -1.3
std    5.8   9.9  2.0  1.5  20.7    3.9

raw data for Ray:

Spoiler:

Code: Select all

   Series  Year  Opp  Outcome    MP  PTS  AST  TOV    TS%  rDRtg
0     EC1  2001  ORL       -5  49.6   27    6    2   63.3    5.5
1     ECS  2001  CHH        1  45.8   28    9    5   69.3   -4.5
2     ECF  2001  PHI        6  44.4   20    5    3   46.5    0.1
3     ECF  2001  PHI       -6  41.4   14    6    2   47.0    0.1
4     ECF  2001  PHI       -1  42.8   20    4    3   47.9    0.1
5     WC1  2005  SAC        4  43.1   30    6    4   71.8    6.4
6     WCS  2005  SAS        1  43.2   20    7    4   37.1   -3.1
7     WCS  2005  SAS       -2  44.3   25    2    6   50.0   -3.1
8     EC1  2008  ATL       -5  44.5   21    4    0   75.0    6.9
9     EC1  2008  ATL       -3  40.4   20    3    0   49.2    6.9
10    ECS  2008  CLE        4  37.2    0    1    4    0.0   -6.5
11    ECS  2008  CLE       -5  42.0    9    2    0   48.3   -6.5
12    ECS  2008  CLE        5  29.5    4    1    1   29.1   -6.5
13    ECF  2008  DET       -6  29.6   25    2    1   68.7   -2.7
14    ECF  2008  DET        4  39.0   29    2    3   82.2   -2.7
15    FIN  2008  LAL        6  40.8   17    2    2   69.0   -2.1
16    FIN  2008  LAL       -6  41.4   25    2    1   79.9   -2.1
17    FIN  2008  LAL        6  48.0   19    2    1   72.0   -2.1
18    FIN  2008  LAL       -5  39.5   16    2    2   52.6   -2.1
19    EC1  2009  CHI       -2  39.1    4    1    1   15.5    0.5
20    EC1  2009  CHI        3  38.8   30    5    0   72.7    0.5
21    EC1  2009  CHI       -3  46.5   28    1    2   68.2    0.5
22    EC1  2009  CHI        2  26.4   10    2    2   53.6    0.5
23    EC1  2009  CHI       -1  58.8   51    3    3   72.7    0.5
24    ECS  2009  ORL       -5  40.4    9    3    1   32.7   -4.6
25    ECS  2009  ORL        1  46.9   12    4    2   46.2   -4.6
26    ECS  2009  ORL        4  41.2   13    3    4   49.2   -4.6
27    EC1  2010  MIA        2  37.8   25    5    0   65.5   -0.7
28    ECF  2010  ORL        4  39.7   25    3    1   65.5   -5.9
29    ECF  2010  ORL        3  38.8    4    2    2   27.3   -5.9
30    ECF  2010  ORL       -4  45.8   22    1    2   79.9   -5.9
31    FIN  2010  LAL        6  40.2   12    2    2   55.1   -2.8
32    FIN  2010  LAL       -4  45.3   13    2    4   39.1   -2.8
33    EC1  2011  NYK        2  41.7   24    1    2   73.5    3.7
34    EC1  2011  NYK        3  38.6   18    2    1  101.4    3.7

rDRtg = relative DRtg of the opposition during the playoffs. This is the average difference between playoff ORtg and regular season ORtg for the opposition of the opposition. For example Wade's final game in 2010 he faced off against the Celtics who on average held their opposition in the playoffs 6.9 points lower than their regular season ORtg.

I'm actually surprised to see Harden perform so well, considering his playoff reputation here. You can also adjust for TS% allowed by the opposition on average, but I think adding playoff rDRtg makes it fair enough.

*I could have been more strict with Ray Allen.

[Clyde Frazier]

Vote 1 - Patrick Ewing
Vote 2 - Walt Frazier
Vote 3 - Clyde Drexler

I’m just going to address some of the themes (for the lack of a better word) that revolved around ewing during his career.

He came up in one of the best eras for centers the game has ever seen. There are the obvious all time greats such as hakeem, robinson, and towards the later part of his career shaq. Then you had his georgetown counterparts in mutombo and mourning as well as guys like parish, divac, willis, smits, sabonis, daugherty, etc. On top of competing with these guys for accolades like all NBA and all defensive team, he had the tall task of being the focal point on offense going up against them on a regular basis.

And that leads me to the story of ewing’s career: He never had a consistent all star caliber 2nd option in his prime. The knicks were essentially forced to run the offense through him as he was their only option. Starks was a talented player who would go to war for you, but for every few games he went off, you’d end up with a shot happy poor shooting night. Many times, the knicks would end up winning these games in spite of that due to ewing’s stellar play.

Was Ewing a hyper efficient elite offensive player? Not quite, but he would turn into a great offensive force with impressive athleticism for a guy his size. As his athleticism waned, he developed more of an outside game, and while his efficiency would decrease, you could still go to him late in games if you needed a bucket. You can also attribute his decrease in efficiency in the playoffs to defenses locking in even more on him due to the lack of other options.

I’m sorry, but the notion that he actually brought his teammates down offensively to the point where they would’ve had a significantly greater impact without him is irrational. If ewing was ever fortunate enough to play with another great player, he would’ve taken advantage of it just fine. When he finally got the opportunity to play for a championship in 94, he just so happened to face his ultimate match in hakeem. By no means am I guaranteeing a championship if he faced the likes of barkley, stockton and malone, or david robinson, but the outcome may have been different.

Ewing and the knicks played jordan’s bulls as well as anyone back then, but just couldn’t get over the hump. While teams from other eras certainly prevented players from winning championships, jordan had a major effect on those guys from the 90s. Those knicks teams were built on defense, and while there’s no question ewing had great defensive players around him, he was the anchor nonetheless. NY’s defensive RTG ranks from 92-99:

92 - 2nd
93 - 1st
94 - 1st
95 - 1st
96 - 4th
97 - 2nd
98 - 4th
99 - 4th

Top 5 defense for 8 straight seasons and best in the league for 3 straight? That’s damn impressive any way you slice it. 92 was riley’s first year as head coach, and he found a way to manage all these strong personalities (mason, oakley, mcdaniel, starks, harper, etc.) and help them channel that towards performance on the court. Ewing had an impressive peak in 89-90 putting up 28.6 PPG, 10.9 RPG, 2.2 APG, 1 SPG, 4 BPG on 59.9% TS and 115 ORtg. He rounded out his career with solid longevity (15 productive seasons) and 9 straight seasons of 20+ PPG, 10+ RPG and 2+ BPG.

[penbeast0]

The best way I have approached the comparison is breaking them into archetypes and make comparisons from there.

Barry vs Pierce
Miller vs Allen
Drexler vs Gervin
Havlicek vs Pippen

Bolded are players I have ranked higher.

Not sure why Pierce is the same archtype as Barry while Drexler is with Gervin, I would swap them around. Drexler, like Barry, tended to be a playmaker as well as a scorer, sort of a do everything kind of guy. Gervin, like Pierce, more a pure scorer without the playmaking. Might even consider Drexler more the playmaker/score than Havlicek.

Barry v. Drexler (1st option with playmaking)
Havlicek v. Pippen (2nd option who could be a 1st option with playmaking)
Pierce v. Gervin (pure wing scorers without great 3 point shooting)
Miller v. Allen (the great 3 point shooters of their era)

[Owly]

So I see Barry as basically the #3 perimeter player in the world when he arrives in the NBA, who then goes to the ABA and thrives, returns to the NBA to lead a team to a championship in a role that could be considered proto-heliocentric, and then ends his career going to another team and helping them thrive.

Hmm ... on Barry's thriving ...

In his first two years ... statistically mostly so (though the Oaks won a title without him for what that's worth) but in that league he was no more dominant in his best statistical year than Hawkins in a much smaller sample -and not too far away from an old man version of Hagan in a small sample - year 2 a similar story with Haywood though the level of competition for the bigs might have been notably lower at that time). And then the numbers are worse in New York and health still isn't perfect (though there is a strong playoff run the last year, fwiw) ...

Put it this way '69-72 Barry numbers are better than Donnie Freeman's ... but by a lot less than you'd like for a player in contention/discussion here (and he's less available, circa 1500 RS minutes less) in prime or prime adjacent years.

Re: lead a team to a championship
I haven't dug too deep but wasn't that title won with defense and then offensive rebounding more than scoring efficiently or turnover economy ... the things a scorer-playmaker might affect. You can make a case for him bootstrapping them to competent (though his best numbers come against the distinctly poor Supersonics) and maybe there's an interpretation that floor raising is, when you happen to have the right defensive cast in a tightly packed era for competition ... well if it ended with a title then it's great. I don't know. Working with very incomplete information (e.g turnovers, game videos etc) of course. Yet I'm more impressed with '76 Warriors with a lesser role for Barry.

That's just me.

For the record:

I consider Connie Hawkins a superior player to Barry and every other player Jordan Syndrome put on a list with Barry, and at a certain point I expect to be championing Hawkins while most everyone else in the project says "Ugh, here we go again."

Obviously with Hawkins, longevity is an issue. It's not as glaring as people might think, but it is enough that I wasn't looking to bring him up for a while yet.

Re: Warriors won with defense. Well, they were 2nd in the league in ORtg so it's not like the offense was literally bad, and it really was running through Barry as a playmaker leading the team in assists. My feeling is that while Barry was calling his own number too much, the other players probably weren't really ready at the start to handle more of the decision making load, and their capacity increased with time. I do agree that the team was at its best with Barry shooting a bit less.

I'll also note that on defense, Barry was the guy getting steals. While a ballhawk can do more harm than good, if there's a defense that's working well and that team has a ballhawk, his defense is probably part of what makes the team work. Credit the backline that allowed Barry to gamble, but Barry in '74-75 was playing way more minutes than everyone else so I tend to think that if Barry were doing this really badly the team would be more clearly suffering from it.

Fair enough with regard to Barry being at very least not harmful on D (at that time), GS RS offense and on Hawkins.

I think the (small) distance to old man Hagan (or for a larger sample Freeman) is more harmful, to me. I feel like guys playing around the NBA MVP-discussion tier of that time should have smashed up the early ABA and maybe bar that small sample in year 1 I don't feel like he did (ABA getting better as his numbers get worse but still, little overlap with NBA star/all-star talent guys - 2 years with Beaty, 1 year with rookie Erving, Gilmore and McGinnis, none with Thompson, Gervin, Jones, Cunningham or even Maurice Lucas).

For clarity on my side, regarding winning with D, I was talking more to the '75 playoffs given "lead a team to a championship" was advanced for him. In his defense he played the league's two best defenses and the team's apparent Offensive Rating versus Chicago is excellent (though Barry shot poorly and the 4 factors for GS don't look that amazing versus league RS norms, though I'm not nearly into the numbers to know if something is off or if so where).

[Doctor MJ]

Fair enough with regard to Barry being at very least not harmful on D (at that time), GS RS offense and on Hawkins.

I think the (small) distance to old man Hagan (or for a larger sample Freeman) is more harmful, to me. I feel like guys playing around the NBA MVP-discussion tier of that time should have smashed up the early ABA and maybe bar that small sample in year 1 I don't feel like he did (ABA getting better as his numbers get worse but still, little overlap with NBA star/all-star talent guys - 2 years with Beaty, 1 year with rookie Erving, Gilmore and McGinnis, none with Thompson, Gervin, Jones, Cunningham or even Maurice Lucas).

For clarity on my side, regarding winning with D, I was talking more to the '75 playoffs given "lead a team to a championship" was advanced for him. In his defense he played the league's two best defenses and the team's apparent Offensive Rating versus Chicago is excellent (though Barry shot poorly and the 4 factors for GS don't look that amazing versus league RS norms, though I'm not nearly into the numbers to know if something is off or if so where).

I'm totally down to analyze more of these ABA guys but I'm really not sure where you seeing Hagan or Freeman as being close to Barry. Freeman played longer so maybe you're focused on a particular stretch of time, but the Hagan comparison is really strange to me. By the time Barry is in the ABA Hagan is playing less than 20 MPG.

To the point of Barry leaving less of a mark on the ABA than we'd expect from his hot start in '68-69 before the injury, I would not disagree. The fact that he seemed to be outperformed by a lesser NBA-er in Zelmo Beaty is eye-brow raising. But I've never really seen anything in the ABA years that makes me seriously drop Barry in my estimation. If we were making a GOAT list based on only guys who played in the ABA, how many guys can we seriously expect to put above Barry?

Erving? Yes.
Moses? Yes.
Gilmore? I don't think so. Better ABA career definitely, but Barry's 2 NBA stints give him the edge.
Gervin? I don't think so.
Hawkins? Not enough longevity.
Jones? I don't think so.
Cunningham? I don't think so.
Daniels? I don't think so.
Beaty? I don't think so.
Haywood? I don't think so.

I say this with a ton of respect for all of these guys, but I think Barry's coming in 3rd on that list and any notion of "but shouldn't he be separating himself further from other players" to an extent leaves me scratching my head. I see a lot of fantastic guys who I don't think I can put ahead of Barry.

[trex_8063]

Thru post #47:

Dwyane Wade - 3 (Dutchball97, Odinn21, trex_8063)
James Harden - 2 (DQuinn1575, Magic Is Magic)
Patrick Ewing - 2 (Clyde Frazier, penbeast0)
John Havlicek - 1 (Cavsfansince84)
Elgin Baylor - 1 (Hal14)


Probably about 22 hours [or just under] left for this thread. And ANOTHER REMINDED: keep tabs on the front-runners to state your opinion [preferably notifying me in process] among them, as having that information for Condorcet method will [likely] be necessary more and more often as the project goes on.

Spoiler:

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

[quote=”sansterre”].[/quote]

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

[Odinn21]

Vote 1 - Patrick Ewing
Vote 2 - Walt Frazier
Vote 3 - Clyde Drexler

Drexler over Wade?..

[Whopper_Sr]

Sticking with my Wade and Miller picks. I was looking at Ewing and Harden before and I've been leaning Ewing.

Ewing is the best defender left among players who peaked at a near MVP/MVP+ level (excluding Walton). Solid 10 year prime although he left some value on the table due to injuries at the beginning of his career.

We underrate Harden's durability and ability to shoulder an enormous load. This comes at the expense of a couple of things. First, his stamina. He frequently gets burnt out at the end of games, reducing his effectiveness by multiple folds. Secondly, can he be anywhere near this effective when not in a high usage on-ball role? We saw flashes of it in 2018 alongside CP3 but there are doubts.

Their playoff woes paint a similar picture. They never could quite replicate their RS production. Harden faced the Warriors 4 times (15, 16, 18, 19) and Ewing faced the MJ Bulls 4 times (91, 92, 93, 96). Neither were able to get over the hump. Can't exactly knock them too much for this but not a plus either.

Ultimately, I'm going with the big over the small.

1. Dwyane Wade
2. Reggie Miller
3. Patrick Ewing

[Jordan Syndrome]

1. Dwyane Wade
2. Reggie Miller
3. Patrick Ewing

Unsure on #3 here, confident on #2 until I see evidence otherwise.

Wade: One of the highest primes left here, excellent playoff performer. Scales well given his exemplary performances against good defenses and with other talented teammates but not the most scalable player.

Miller: Best/Most Offensive CORP left. Raised game in the post-season on a consistent basis. Fits great next to other talent and is an underrated defender (Much better than a Steph Curry for example). One of the best pure-scorers left.

Ewing: Not a huge fan but I have been intrigued by some posts in here, notably Clyde Frazier. The thing is, Miller often times outplayed Ewing in the head-to-head series.

[iggymcfrack]

1. Dwyane Wade
We still haven't voted Wade in yet? What are we even doing here people? He averaged 35/8/4/3 (3 steals a game!) on .572 TS% in a much more defensive era and that was before he even fully hit his peak. His 2009 and 2010 regular seasons stand up with any all-time and his numbers for the playoff games he did play was still elite.

2. Kawhi Leonard
Even with last year's disappointment, he has 4 consecutive postseasons with a PER of 27.8 or higher where statistically he's at MJ/LeBron levels while still playing elite defense. He led a team to a title, he won back-to-back DPOYs, he's done it all.

3. Anthony Davis
3rd all-time in PER, tied for 3rd all-time in postseason PER, elite defender who finished 2nd in DPOY last season, incredible postseason in 2020 where he won the title as a near equal to LeBron James.

[Joao Saraiva]

1. D Wade
2. James Harden
3. Walt Frazier

I'm voting for D Wade here. I think he has the most impressive peak left, and he has also the best run left. 2006 was special, that ECF and NBA finals were out of this world. He absolutely killed it in 06.

He has also some of the best regular seasons left with 09 and 10.

Wade also adds value with his seasons as a 2nd option. Epic 11 finals series, really great player in 12 and even in 13 he was a big part of that Heat team that almost beat the consecutive wins record.

In the playoffs Wade dropped the ball in 14, but let's not forget that his great performance in G4 of the 13 finals (along with James) was what kept the Heat alive on the road. Without that performance, probably the Heat lose the 13 finals.

Still give him a nod over AD, Harden, Walt Frazier, Kawih, Baylor or Giannis who I think are coming up next.

[70sFan]

Davis getting recognition is even stranger than Kawhi to me. He's been a star in 2014-20 period, but he missed 99 games in this period and outside of 2020 he has no playoffs resume. Do you really think that we didn't have any player in the league history that is more worthy considering...?

[MyUniBroDavis]

Davis getting recognition is even stranger than Kawhi to me. He's been a star in 2014-20 period, but he missed 99 games in this period and outside of 2020 he has no playoffs resume. Do you really think that we didn't have any player in the league history that is more worthy considering...?

I didnt pay them i swear

Im on the 2020 AD is a top ten peak train but yeah this is literally his only super elite year, maybe 2018 for wlite and if ur really really into impact stuff 2015 altho thats kinda psycho

Anyways so what do you guys think about zion

[70sFan]

Davis getting recognition is even stranger than Kawhi to me. He's been a star in 2014-20 period, but he missed 99 games in this period and outside of 2020 he has no playoffs resume. Do you really think that we didn't have any player in the league history that is more worthy considering...?

I didnt pay them i swear

Im on the 2020 AD is a top ten peak train but yeah this is literally his only super elite year, maybe 2018 for wlite and if ur really really into impact stuff 2015 altho thats kinda psycho

Anyways so what do you guys think about zion

Yeah, I won't deny - Davis already peaked very high and he's on his way to become all-time great. In 2020, he's... not there. I'm glad that you realize it, even though you definitely like him

[MyUniBroDavis]

So ur saying i can get AD in top 30?!?!?

Nah jk lol, in all honesty so

While theres a strong argument for AD as having a top 2-3 pf peak if you heavily value playoffs (and honestly for the lakers and 2020 specifically playoffs literally dont matter)

But year by year

2014 AD was raw and new

2015 AD was high impact, low substance, mostly off ball

2016 AD got bigger but it made him slower and he looked out ofnplace

2017 AD was better than 2016 AD and solid, but not crazy good

2018 AD was elite and iirc good argument for DPOY top 3-5 guy post cousins injury

2019 AD was the best RS AD had offensively when he played but my man woke up that year looked at the pelicans and chose violence

2020 AD was a solid top 5-10 guy in the Rs and turned into a top 10 guy ever in the playoffs

[MyUniBroDavis]

Davis getting recognition is even stranger than Kawhi to me. He's been a star in 2014-20 period, but he missed 99 games in this period and outside of 2020 he has no playoffs resume. Do you really think that we didn't have any player in the league history that is more worthy considering...?

I didnt pay them i swear

Im on the 2020 AD is a top ten peak train but yeah this is literally his only super elite year, maybe 2018 for wlite and if ur really really into impact stuff 2015 altho thats kinda psycho

Anyways so what do you guys think about zion

Yeah, I won't deny - Davis already peaked very high and he's on his way to become all-time great. In 2020, he's... not there. I'm glad that you realize it, even though you definitely like him

Im not gonna lie i didnt expect him in the top 50 lol

Everyone assumes AD is my fav player and his like my third fav player in the nba rn lol, but a pretty distant tird behind zion and bron


I wasnt that high on ADs RS, eap offensively alrhoufh i think the team didnt fit him but defensively the he isnt top ten on defense takes were kind of dumb, im just really high on playoff AD cuz he genuinly became a different player with his perimeter scoring (defensively they just used ad as a playoff defender lol)

I will say that if AD has 2-3 more runs and wins like that, hes vaulting alot of people, like i value ringzzzzz alot tbh so if he end up with a ton hes gonna climb fast even if his career value isnt up there yet

But career value wise AD isnt higher than harden/paul/westbrook/those guys

[Hal14]

Davis getting recognition is even stranger than Kawhi to me. He's been a star in 2014-20 period, but he missed 99 games in this period and outside of 2020 he has no playoffs resume. Do you really think that we didn't have any player in the league history that is more worthy considering...?

I think some people on this board - the ones voting for AD and Kawhi already - just started watching basketball in 2014.

[Clyde Frazier]

Vote 1 - Patrick Ewing
Vote 2 - Walt Frazier
Vote 3 - Clyde Drexler

Drexler over Wade?..

Better longevity and durability, very comparable skillsets.