Owly wrote:Doctor MJ wrote:Owly wrote:Fair enough with regard to Barry being at very least not harmful on D (at that time), GS RS offense and on Hawkins.
I think the (small) distance to old man Hagan (or for a larger sample Freeman) is more harmful, to me. I feel like guys playing around the NBA MVP-discussion tier of that time should have smashed up the early ABA and maybe bar that small sample in year 1 I don't feel like he did (ABA getting better as his numbers get worse but still, little overlap with NBA star/all-star talent guys - 2 years with Beaty, 1 year with rookie Erving, Gilmore and McGinnis, none with Thompson, Gervin, Jones, Cunningham or even Maurice Lucas).
For clarity on my side, regarding winning with D, I was talking more to the '75 playoffs given "lead a team to a championship" was advanced for him. In his defense he played the league's two best defenses and the team's apparent Offensive Rating versus Chicago is excellent (though Barry shot poorly and the 4 factors for GS don't look that amazing versus league RS norms, though I'm not nearly into the numbers to know if something is off or if so where).
I'm totally down to analyze more of these ABA guys but I'm really not sure where you seeing Hagan or Freeman as being close to Barry. Freeman played longer so maybe you're focused on a particular stretch of time, but the Hagan comparison is really strange to me. By the time Barry is in the ABA Hagan is playing less than 20 MPG.
To the point of Barry leaving less of a mark on the ABA than we'd expect from his hot start in '68-69 before the injury, I would not disagree. The fact that he seemed to be outperformed by a lesser NBA-er in Zelmo Beaty is eye-brow raising. But I've never really seen anything in the ABA years that makes me seriously drop Barry in my estimation. If we were making a GOAT list based on only guys who played in the ABA, how many guys can we seriously expect to put above Barry?
Erving? Yes.
Moses? Yes.
Gilmore? I don't think so. Better ABA career definitely, but Barry's 2 NBA stints give him the edge.
Gervin? I don't think so.
Hawkins? Not enough longevity.
Jones? I don't think so.
Cunningham? I don't think so.
Daniels? I don't think so.
Beaty? I don't think so.
Haywood? I don't think so.
I say this with a ton of respect for all of these guys, but I think Barry's coming in 3rd on that list and any notion of "but shouldn't he be separating himself further from other players" to an extent leaves me scratching my head. I see a lot of fantastic guys who I don't think I can put ahead of Barry.
Okay you seem perhaps to have interpreted what was intended as adjacent points as a (different) single point.
Versus Freeman it's the ABA box-composite numbers '69-72.
https://stathead.com/basketball/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=combined&order_by_asc=1&order_by=ws&per_minute_base=36&per_poss_base=100&type=advanced&is_playoffs=N&year_min=1969&year_max=1972&ccomp%5B1%5D=gt&cval%5B1%5D=16&cstat%5B1%5D=per&ccomp%5B2%5D=gt&cval%5B2%5D=.110&cstat%5B2%5D=ws_per_48&ccomp%5B3%5D=gt&cval%5B3%5D=5000&cstat%5B3%5D=mp&positions%5B%5D=G&positions%5B%5D=GF&positions%5B%5D=F&positions%5B%5D=FG&positions%5B%5D=FC&positions%5B%5D=C&positions%5B%5D=CF&lg_id=ABA&birth_country_is=Y&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&season_start=1&season_end=-1&college_id=0&as_comp=gt&as_val=0As before he's ahead but even just on rate he's not, again, separating himself that much from a guy who I don't even really have a mental file on. Hagan had been out of the NBA for a year and ceased being a star after '63. He comes back to the ABA in '67-68 and then when you look at 68-69 numbers he's posting a 26.1 PER and .247 WS/48 ... on a limited sample (579 minutes) but better than his best NBA numbers and not so far off Barry's debuting numbers. The early ABA was, I believe, a second rate league, which NBA rejects like Red Robbins and Larry Jones were, at points, tearing up. Beaty arrives (70-71, last NBA season 68-69) and his PER jumps by more than 6, his WS per 48 by more than .100, at age 31. Haywood and Hawkins' numbers drop off (Hawkins PER by 10, and WS/48 by .146). These might be partially mitigated as individual incidents by injuries or ABA weakness at the big positions, but my impression on the whole is that this was a poor league. Barry was good in the ABA, he wasn't a colossus dominating the league and collaring MVPs (or deserving to). What a player "should" be doing is a clunky phrasing for me (what does "should" mean), but I guess I'd want someone here to have been clearly better than, say, Beaty in these years (or else had more amazing years than I think Barry did elsewhere, but just imagining a "typical" career arc).
So it's not about separating himself from the ABA greats' careers, it's separating himself (or not) from the ABA at a point when the other stars weren't there, and I believe the league was there for the taking. In this respect, for me, Barry's ABA career is quite underwhelming for someone with his overall stature/perception.
So Barry goes to the ABA, and first year plays well, his WS/48 is .301 (by far his best ever), he scores 34.0 a game. Then he gets hurt, team gets sold and moved to Washington, and he is really unhappy and it shows as he doesnt want to go to Washington, and then especially to Virginia. He was friendly with the original owner, wanted to stay on west coast, didnt want his kids to grow up with Southern accent saying y'all - not really making friends. Which was Barry's problem; he wasnt well liked. He goes to New York, and averages 30.5 for his ABA career, and takes the team to the finals in 72, where they lose to Indiana, the ABA dynasty. Doctor J takes the Nets to the title 2 years later, beating a Utah team that isnt as good as the Indiana team, but we have Doctor J rated enough higher than Barry. So Barry goes to the NBA, and his stats translate higher. It's like he found the game again in his return, his assist % pre ABA was 15.1 at best, his ABA average was 15.4%, but by 1974 he is at 24.7%. Then he takes one of the worst starting lineups ever to the title in 75, and in 76 the team
is best in regular season, but get upset in playoffs. Oh, and in 1967 he takes a Warriors team to the finals, wins 2 games against maybe the best team ever, scoring 40.8 per game. He is a great shooter, a great passer at forward - probably the best passing forward pre Bird, underrated defender, pretty average rebounder. Had two great playoff perfomances, winning 2 games against
76ers in final, and taking Butch Beard, Cliff Ray, Charles Johnson, rookie Keith Wilkes to title with Derrick Dickey as sixth man.