RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #29 (Patrick Ewing)

[Doctor MJ]

1. Miller's scoring efficiency is now legendary. Dean Oliver once said he thought he'd made a mistake after seeing what his analytics said about Miller and he's not the only one. bkref recently add their TS Add stat and there we find that Reggie Miller ranks in the Top 5 all-time by the career stat. Among guards he's 2nd just behind Oscar Robertson. Among off-guards, he's WAY out in front more than 50% ahead of Ray Allen. This is no small thing to me.

Do you have a link to a career list for this, I was looking for one the other day, but couldn't find it.

It's in the original post announcing Adjusted Stats:

https://www.sports-reference.com/blog/2020/06/adjusted-shooting-stats-added-to-basketball-reference/

You can also navigate to find this data for any given season from that Season's main page (Players Stats -> Adjusted Shooting).

Unfortunately, for some reason, they have not added this data to Stathead search yet.

[Doctor MJ]

1. Miller's scoring efficiency is now legendary. Dean Oliver once said he thought he'd made a mistake after seeing what his analytics said about Miller and he's not the only one. bkref recently add their TS Add stat and there we find that Reggie Miller ranks in the Top 5 all-time by the career stat. Among guards he's 2nd just behind Oscar Robertson. Among off-guards, he's WAY out in front more than 50% ahead of Ray Allen. This is no small thing to me.

Do you have a link to a career list for this, I was looking for one the other day, but couldn't find it.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1cZKyz688S74yyo8Dy4T5vuAkIXZggKJK6QdiUnQqSx8/edit#gid=174375588

May not be comprehensive (e.g. Feerick's 258.6 season isn't in the peaks list - and those years aren't in the seasons lists, it seems to be non-pro rata so 50s and before players are working at a disadvantage - Kenny Sears seems to be missing from the career list and peaks list ...) but should work as an at a glance guide.

[edit: Steve Johnson, James Donaldson, Tyson Chandler, DeAndre Jordan, Cedric Maxwell, Dave Twardzik, Kiki Vandeweghe also absent as examples ... I imagine it has the top guys ... as a ranking list as you go away from the top few guys I'd feel iffy citing it as a ranking number for peaks or career).

Thanks for linking Owly. Yeah that's the spreadsheet we built based primarily around guys who had been in the Top 100.

[trex_8063]

Thru post #42:

Patrick Ewing - 5 (ccameron, Clyde Frazier, Odinn21, penbeast0, trex_8063)
James Harden - 3 (DQuinn1575, Joao Saraiva, Magic Is Magic)
Reggie Miller - 2 (Doctor MJ, Jordan Syndrome)
John Havlicek - 1 (Cavsfansince84)
Elgin Baylor - 1 (Hal14)
Kawhi Leonard - 1 (Dutchball97)


OK, time to tally.....13 votes, so 7 required for majority.
We'll start by eliminating those bottom three; and actually ALL THREE become ghost votes. So Miller is eliminated next; both votes transfer to Ewing:

Ewing - 7
Harden - 3
(ghosts) - 3

So we don't actually have to resort to any secondary counts to decide this one. I'll get the next up shortly.....

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[Magic Is Magic]

Understanding statistics and participating in film analysis goes a long way in player evaluation. Reading basketball-references accolades page only gets you so far.

Sure, but not being biased also helps a bit? What about Allen Iverson? Someone who is close in tiers to Reggie IMHO, but Iverson has a better career, no? Just as a small example, Allen Iverson has:

1x MVP
3x All NBA 1st
3x All NBA 2nd
1x > 25.0 PER run in the RS
3x top 5 MVP finishes

Miller literally has zero of all those categories but no one is talking about Iverson.

You are using completely arbitrary numbers.

I was merely counting the # of MVPs, All NBA 1st team, 2nd team, and top 5 MVP finishes. Sure you can say 25.0 PER is "arbitrary" so what number should I pick? 23? 24? 26?

And you talkin about how winning with AI as a #1 option is "impossible" but I think winning with Reggie as #1 option is just as hard to do. He was a true #2 option guy, and while I admit he fills the #2 option role better than AI, AI fills the #1 option role better than Miller. I would argue that Miller played on better teams than Iverson. When Iverson made his Finals appearance in 2001 his #2 option was Aaron McKie who scored 14.6 ppg and Reggie's #2 option when he made the Finals was Jalen Rose who scored 20.6 ppg

For the record, I'm not saying Iverson is "better" than Reggie, but it's pretty alarming to see Reggie never achieve anything in his career and get top 30 talk. It's odd. He did nothing.

[Magic Is Magic]

Understanding statistics and participating in film analysis goes a long way in player evaluation. Reading basketball-references accolades page only gets you so far.

Sure, but not being biased also helps a bit? What about Allen Iverson? Someone who is close in tiers to Reggie IMHO, but Iverson has a better career, no? Just as a small example, Allen Iverson has:

1x MVP
3x All NBA 1st
3x All NBA 2nd
1x > 25.0 PER run in the RS
3x top 5 MVP finishes

Miller literally has zero of all those categories but no one is talking about Iverson.

I think there's a move, versus the mainstream, against awards as a measure of player ability here (insofar as there is any collective identity) except perhaps where it is the least worst tool because of information limits.

Iverson played in the databall era. And his MVP is one of the most problematic, not only because we have box measures that make it look dubious as we may have for older "dubious-looking" MVPs but also impact data that says he's good, but not really remotely close to to the top tier of impactors (see, for instance https://sites.google.com/site/rapmstats/2001-npi-rapm).

Yes and I seem to have noticed this in this very thread. I get that All-NBA and All-Defense selections aren't the only measures in which we use to calculate player rank, but they count for something. To me, it's more likely one is being biased by ignoring that dat instead of accepting it. By refusing to accept that someone like Reggie never made an All NBA 1st or 2nd team or received even top 5 in MVP voting shows me that one is likey being biased. I can't ignore that type of data, it's telling. And it makes sense when you see that the guy never scored 25 for a single season and he never won a ring and only made 1 Final. It's telling.

As for the second paragraph and link, thanks for sharing I will explore that now.