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Duffman100 wrote:AbeVigodaLive wrote:Are we doing this based on how the league values Lowry... or how Toronto fans here value the soon-to-be 35-year-old PG?
We're doing this based on how smart NBA teams understand how valuable Lowry is for a championship contender. As the one constant for a perennial 50 win team for the past 5 years, +48 for the last 7.
The league understands how valuable Lowry is, even if posters here don't.
AZNKidd wrote:LBJKB24MJ23 wrote:all contending teams should consider him, he's a winning type of player. he deserves better than what the Raptors have for him to run in Toronto this year or in the future. he will take charges, hit big shots, the intangibles. I think he takes any of the current contenders and push them to the top. limit his minutes and keep him fresh. he can be a monster with rest.
He very much reminds me of Chauncy Billups. Very serviceable PG with some gas in the tank. The problem is that there is simply no contender that has enough cap space to accommodate that contract, albeit expiring. He would be a good fit for Miami in terms of culture and need at the PG spot. Not sure how to make that trade happen though.
raf1995 wrote:I just don’t think he has that kind of potential. I think we will regret not trading him for a haul in a few years when he’s a mid-tier starter with nice playmaking and defense and a shaky jumper.
Vae Victus wrote:Lowry has no meaningful trade value due to Lowry's high salary, expiring status, and TOR's absolute refusal to take on any potential 2021 cap hits as shown with how their dealt with Ibaka.
The market of teams truly interested in Lowry is already fairly thin, as many posters have already listed the ones most interested. Of those teams none have any assets or collection of expiring contracts able to match up to Lowry's. TOR basically missed their only chance to turn Lowry into something when PHX showed willingness to upgrade their PG position with a grizzled vet to help lead their young team, but went and got CP3 instead.
Lowry is a great player who can definitely help a team, but he's simply untradeable with his current contract and TOR's hellbent approach in getting Giannis (which is the right move).
If TOR has a treadmill season, i foresee Lowry asking to be bought out, and he'll prolly be willing to hand back a good chunk of cash so he can be let go early to hand pick his team. It's why i dont see Lowry being traded to some meh team for meager assets, Lowry has way too much cachet to be dumped wherever without asking his permission.
If Lowry gets bought out, i see him joining LAC. They have a BAE slot available (although theyll need to dump some salary due to being up on the hardcap, which they can use their DET SRPs for), and a desperate need at PG. Lowry will easily start over PatBev and become an immediate impact player and more importantly a LEADER.
LAL is another option, push Shroeder to the bench (he wont like it, but whatevs) and both the starting and bench units are gonna be lethal af.
RapsFan2000 wrote:Duffman100 wrote:AbeVigodaLive wrote:Are we doing this based on how the league values Lowry... or how Toronto fans here value the soon-to-be 35-year-old PG?
We're doing this based on how smart NBA teams understand how valuable Lowry is for a championship contender. As the one constant for a perennial 50 win team for the past 5 years, +48 for the last 7.
The league understands how valuable Lowry is, even if posters here don't.
FACTS! TALK TO THEM!!!!
AbeVigodaLive wrote:Are we doing this based on how the league values Lowry... or how Toronto fans here value the soon-to-be 35-year-old PG?
AbeVigodaLive wrote:RapsFan2000 wrote:Duffman100 wrote:
We're doing this based on how smart NBA teams understand how valuable Lowry is for a championship contender. As the one constant for a perennial 50 win team for the past 5 years, +48 for the last 7.
The league understands how valuable Lowry is, even if posters here don't.
FACTS! TALK TO THEM!!!!
One thing that some people use to gauge the very best players is how vital they are to their teams if they don't play. In the last 7 seasons, Lowry has missed 77 games.
His teams went 49 - 28 without him. They won more games than they lost without him every season, sans 2016 when the team went 2 - 3 without him... although DeRozan missed two of those games, too.
I like Lowry. Honest. He does so many things that a leader should do. Toronto fans are lucky to have him. But...
Magic#1 wrote:We have won two playoff games in two years. If we decide to keep this team for the next two years, maybe it will feel like we won a series.
Duffman100 wrote:AbeVigodaLive wrote:RapsFan2000 wrote:
FACTS! TALK TO THEM!!!!
One thing that some people use to gauge the very best players is how vital they are to their teams if they don't play. In the last 7 seasons, Lowry has missed 77 games.
His teams went 49 - 28 without him. They won more games than they lost without him every season, sans 2016 when the team went 2 - 3 without him... although DeRozan missed two of those games, too.
I like Lowry. Honest. He does so many things that a leader should do. Toronto fans are lucky to have him. But...
There's a lot of specifics and context missing from that argument. What teams were they facing, win %, etc etc
Outside of that, why is it that all advanced analytics over those past 7 years have Lowry as a top 25-20 player every single year?
ClipsFanSince98 wrote:Beverley+Lou+Kennard or Kabengele+future 1st rounder+the 4 2nd rounders they got from Detroit. Not bad for an expiring Raptors fans.
AbeVigodaLive wrote:Duffman100 wrote:AbeVigodaLive wrote:
One thing that some people use to gauge the very best players is how vital they are to their teams if they don't play. In the last 7 seasons, Lowry has missed 77 games.
His teams went 49 - 28 without him. They won more games than they lost without him every season, sans 2016 when the team went 2 - 3 without him... although DeRozan missed two of those games, too.
I like Lowry. Honest. He does so many things that a leader should do. Toronto fans are lucky to have him. But...
There's a lot of specifics and context missing from that argument. What teams were they facing, win %, etc etc
Outside of that, why is it that all advanced analytics over those past 7 years have Lowry as a top 25-20 player every single year?
We could probably go through every other player on the list... and not find anybody with a 64% winning percentage... when they don't play. Context be damned. It's just an anomaly for Lowry and the Raptors for nearly a decade.
As for the advanced analytics darling angle... cool. I'll take your word for it that he's ranked 20 - 25 every year. And everybody in Toronto believes he'll continue to hit the highest end of that range even at age 35?
Duffman100 wrote:AbeVigodaLive wrote:Duffman100 wrote:
There's a lot of specifics and context missing from that argument. What teams were they facing, win %, etc etc
Outside of that, why is it that all advanced analytics over those past 7 years have Lowry as a top 25-20 player every single year?
We could probably go through every other player on the list... and not find anybody with a 64% winning percentage... when they don't play. Context be damned. It's just an anomaly for Lowry and the Raptors for nearly a decade.
As for the advanced analytics darling angle... cool. I'll take your word for it that he's ranked 20 - 25 every year. And everybody in Toronto believes he'll continue to hit the highest end of that range even at age 35?
Just as much of an anomaly that Lowry is one of the leaders in wins shares, playoff wins, regular seasons for the past 7 seasons. But yeah, that's probably just a random anomaly... It was Derozan carrying him the entire time, right?
All this talk about Lowry falling off a cliff. He just came off one of his better years of his career? But all of a sudden people are predicting to randomly fall off a cliff into next season.
AbeVigodaLive wrote:Duffman100 wrote:AbeVigodaLive wrote:
We could probably go through every other player on the list... and not find anybody with a 64% winning percentage... when they don't play. Context be damned. It's just an anomaly for Lowry and the Raptors for nearly a decade.
As for the advanced analytics darling angle... cool. I'll take your word for it that he's ranked 20 - 25 every year. And everybody in Toronto believes he'll continue to hit the highest end of that range even at age 35?
Just as much of an anomaly that Lowry is one of the leaders in wins shares, playoff wins, regular seasons for the past 7 seasons. But yeah, that's probably just a random anomaly... It was Derozan carrying him the entire time, right?
All this talk about Lowry falling off a cliff. He just came off one of his better years of his career? But all of a sudden people are predicting to randomly fall off a cliff into next season.
That's disingenuous.
You quoted me... but I never wrote that he'd fall off a cliff.
[Note: I think that Toronto has built a really cool team. As something as nebulous as "culture" is... it sure seems like Toronto has built a solid foundation of hard-working players who are held accountable for wins and losses. And as its longest tenured player, Kyle Lowry deserves credit for part of that. In fact, the entire organization is run so well that even when it's top 20 PG is out for what amounts to an entire season of games... the team (regardless of bit pieces) wins at a 64% clip.]
grindtime22 wrote:Lockdown504090 wrote:The raptors will trade him wherever he wants to go. If he wants to go to the clippers and save them, I would do Zubac, and all the pick swaps they have with the thunder and a Traded player Exception. Steve Balmer would do it , The CBA allows it, but it would hard cap the clippers next season and only allow them to sign players at around 4 million or something like that.
That being said, there isnt a fair offer out there that trades lowry to a contender, and only a contender would even want him.
I think you are mixing things/rules together and blending them into your own CBA.
The CBA doesn't allow that kind of trade right now.
AbeVigodaLive wrote:RapsFan2000 wrote:Duffman100 wrote:
We're doing this based on how smart NBA teams understand how valuable Lowry is for a championship contender. As the one constant for a perennial 50 win team for the past 5 years, +48 for the last 7.
The league understands how valuable Lowry is, even if posters here don't.
FACTS! TALK TO THEM!!!!
One thing that some people use to gauge the very best players is how vital they are to their teams if they don't play. In the last 7 seasons, Lowry has missed 77 games.
His teams went 49 - 28 without him. They won more games than they lost without him every season, sans 2016 when the team went 2 - 3 without him... although DeRozan missed two of those games, too.
I like Lowry. Honest. He does so many things that a leader should do. Toronto fans are lucky to have him. But...
AbeVigodaLive wrote:Are we doing this based on how the league values Lowry... or how Toronto fans here value the soon-to-be 35-year-old PG?
Duffman100 wrote:AbeVigodaLive wrote:Duffman100 wrote:
Just as much of an anomaly that Lowry is one of the leaders in wins shares, playoff wins, regular seasons for the past 7 seasons. But yeah, that's probably just a random anomaly... It was Derozan carrying him the entire time, right?
All this talk about Lowry falling off a cliff. He just came off one of his better years of his career? But all of a sudden people are predicting to randomly fall off a cliff into next season.
That's disingenuous.
You quoted me... but I never wrote that he'd fall off a cliff.
[Note: I think that Toronto has built a really cool team. As something as nebulous as "culture" is... it sure seems like Toronto has built a solid foundation of hard-working players who are held accountable for wins and losses. And as its longest tenured player, Kyle Lowry deserves credit for part of that. In fact, the entire organization is run so well that even when it's top 20 PG is out for what amounts to an entire season of games... the team (regardless of bit pieces) wins at a 64% clip.]
The teams have been good. But a lot of that has Lowry's locker room impact all over it.
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-best-nba-players-of-the-last-6-seasons/
Lowry from 2013/14 to 2019 is 8th most valuable player per Raptor +/-. If you look at WS/48, BPM, RPM, Vorp, Lowry is consistently ranked high in all of these analytics. Are these analytics perfect? Of course not. But when someone is consistently ranked amongst them, it raises an eyebrow.
Do I think a 35 year old Lowry will continue to be a top 20 player? Yes. Because there has been zero indication he's going to be anything but. He looked great last season and great in the playoffs.
Anticon wrote:AbeVigodaLive wrote:Are we doing this based on how the league values Lowry... or how Toronto fans here value the soon-to-be 35-year-old PG?
The thing with this view is that the Raptors fan assessment of Lowry has always been closer to the truth than the overall view across the league.
The Spurs and TWolves both needed point guards in 2017, and had space. They instead chose to go with Jeff Teague and Patty Mills instead. They would have been much better off with Kyle but couldn't see the reality of his value.
I tend to think the league hasn't really updated that view and is still pretty wrong about him.