Fool Me Twice: The Gordon Hayward Thread

euphorbus · Post #841 » by **euphorbus** » Fri Dec 4, 2020 4:45 pm

At moment, Hayward and Biyombo are the most experienced players on the squad, at 10 and 9 years, respectively. Even Cody Zeller only has 7 years. It's amazing how young the team is.

https://www.nba.com/hornets/press-releases/charlotte-hornets-announce-2020-training-camp-roster

Snidely FC · Post #842 » by **Snidely FC** » Fri Dec 11, 2020 3:41 pm

ESPN+ Ranked Hayward #45 in their Top 100, proving once again that whenever you can sign one of the Top45ish players in the league to a massive contract you really need to go for it

45. Gordon Hayward

Charlotte Hornets | SF

Previous rank: 65

2020-21 projected RPM: 0.5

One big question: How close is Hayward to being the Hayward of old? The Hornets made a $120 million bet that the answer to that question is "pretty close." This past season, Hayward showed flashes of being the All-Star he was prior to the gruesome leg injury he suffered in 2017. But a separate ankle injury stopped him from getting all the way back.

JMAC3 · Post #843 » by **JMAC3** » Fri Dec 11, 2020 4:21 pm

Snidely FC wrote:ESPN+ Ranked Hayward #45 in their Top 100, proving once again that whenever you can sign one of the Top45ish players in the league to a massive contract you really need to go for it
45. Gordon Hayward

Charlotte Hornets | SF

Previous rank: 65

2020-21 projected RPM: 0.5

One big question: How close is Hayward to being the Hayward of old? The Hornets made a $120 million bet that the answer to that question is "pretty close." This past season, Hayward showed flashes of being the All-Star he was prior to the gruesome leg injury he suffered in 2017. But a separate ankle injury stopped him from getting all the way back.

Hayward is the 34th highest paid player this season... so it really is not that far off. Especially when you consider how many guys ranked ahead of him are on rookie deals for the low low. What would be a good deal paying him the 60th highest salary for the 45th best player?

Snidely FC · Post #844 » by **Snidely FC** » Sat Dec 12, 2020 3:01 pm

JMAC3 wrote:
Snidely FC wrote:ESPN+ Ranked Hayward #45 in their Top 100, proving once again that whenever you can sign one of the Top45ish players in the league to a massive contract you really need to go for it
45. Gordon Hayward

Charlotte Hornets | SF

Previous rank: 65

2020-21 projected RPM: 0.5

One big question: How close is Hayward to being the Hayward of old? The Hornets made a $120 million bet that the answer to that question is "pretty close." This past season, Hayward showed flashes of being the All-Star he was prior to the gruesome leg injury he suffered in 2017. But a separate ankle injury stopped him from getting all the way back.

Hayward is the 34th highest paid player this season... so it really is not that far off. Especially when you consider how many guys ranked ahead of him are on rookie deals for the low low. What would be a good deal paying him the 60th highest salary for the 45th best player?

To me the best deal would have been not signing him, and not stretching Batum to sign him

but if we did have to sign him, SI ranked Fred Van Vleet #40 he is pre-prime age 26 and just signed for 4 yrs $85M, or $35M less than Hayward

still, for me the contract really isn't the rub, for me the biggest irritant with bringing Hayward in is he blocks playing time of developmental young players both guys currently on the roster and future draftees for the next 4 yrs at a time when the team should imo have turned the focus to Lamelo Ball, PJ Washington, and its other young core; with the timeline for the rest of the roster I just don't get it

I am obviously biased but I think the signing was impulsive, shortsighted and unnecessary

JMAC3 · Post #845 » by **JMAC3** » Sat Dec 12, 2020 3:59 pm

Snidely FC wrote:
JMAC3 wrote:
Snidely FC wrote:ESPN+ Ranked Hayward #45 in their Top 100, proving once again that whenever you can sign one of the Top45ish players in the league to a massive contract you really need to go for it

Hayward is the 34th highest paid player this season... so it really is not that far off. Especially when you consider how many guys ranked ahead of him are on rookie deals for the low low. What would be a good deal paying him the 60th highest salary for the 45th best player?

To me the best deal would have been not signing him, and not stretching Batum to sign him

but if we did have to sign him, SI ranked Fred Van Vleet #40 he is pre-prime age 26 and just signed for 4 yrs $85M, or $35M less than Hayward

still, for me the contract really isn't the rub, for me the biggest irritant with bringing Hayward in is he blocks playing time of developmental young players both guys currently on the roster and future draftees for the next 4 yrs at a time when the team should imo have turned the focus to Lamelo Ball, PJ Washington, and its other young core; with the timeline for the rest of the roster I just don't get it

I am obviously biased but I think the signing was impulsive, shortsighted and unnecessary

I don't think Hayward is going to prevent Ball, Graham, Washington from getting the focus though. His contract also does not prevent us from resigning any of our young core players. Top 50 guys are going to cost a lot of money, and we aren't signing anyone who is top 30 and young. So I guess we should just not sign anyone in FA, because we are either going to be upset we had to pay them real money or we are going to be upset they aren't 25 and a potential star.

If you are upset we probably won't get the first pick now, then sure I get it.... but just say it.

LofJ · Post #846 » by **LofJ** » Sat Dec 12, 2020 4:27 pm

This team tries and fails to sign free agents all the time. Last year Cauley-Stein turned us down and this year Duncan Robinson, Montrezl Harrell, and DeMarcus Cousins all turned us down. And in most of these instances they turned down more money from us to play for less elsewhere.

We are the perennial struggling Charlotte Hornets, we don't have the option to land whoever we want at a fair price.

Rays Pompadour · Post #847 » by **Rays Pompadour** » Sat Dec 12, 2020 4:39 pm

LofJ wrote:This team tries and fails to sign free agents all the time. Last year Cauley-Stein turned us down and this year Duncan Robinson, Montrezl Harrell, and DeMarcus Cousins all turned us down. And in most of these instances they turned down more money from us to play for less elsewhere.

We are the perennial struggling Charlotte Hornets, we don't have the option to land whoever we want at a fair price.

Winning will fix that. Continual excuses of a small market franchise is not a draw. Culture matters, too, but winning more.

MasterIchiro · Post #848 » by **MasterIchiro** » Sat Dec 12, 2020 5:12 pm

LofJ wrote:This team tries and fails to sign free agents all the time. Last year Cauley-Stein turned us down and this year Duncan Robinson, Montrezl Harrell, and DeMarcus Cousins all turned us down. And in most of these instances they turned down more money from us to play for less elsewhere.

We are the perennial struggling Charlotte Hornets, we don't have the option to land whoever we want at a fair price.

It certainly devalues cap space. Look at the Knicks. They have more cap than any team but it might as well be dead money if teams are going to sign-and-trade players who want to play for winners that don't have the space for them. There used to be a greater reward for freeing up cap but now teams with limited cap are able to add quality players like Harrell. Agents also prefer to showcase their clients on winning teams. At this point our cap flexibility is a luxury but it's not the asset it used to be. Any better use of cap than signing Hayward is purely hypothetical. Kupchak dealt directly with the reality of how to use it and explored possibilities. Perhaps the final option was overpaying Hayward who's good for our young players vs. a New York Knicks situation. We have to become respectable and if fans trash our GM for this signing it just perpetuates the stereotype that we are a poorly run franchise. Half the league is giving away first round picks like hotcakes and mortgaging the future for 3-4 year windows. Teams are filling out rosters with and overpaying worse players than Hayward. Hornets still have the youngest team, all our picks and have more cap space than most teams next year. We won't know if the Hayward move looks better until he helps recruit a key free agent next year or if we surprise and make the playoffs.

DY_nasty · Post #849 » by **DY_nasty** » Sat Dec 12, 2020 5:47 pm

LofJ wrote:This team tries and fails to sign free agents all the time. Last year Cauley-Stein turned us down and this year Duncan Robinson, Montrezl Harrell, and DeMarcus Cousins all turned us down. And in most of these instances they turned down more money from us to play for less elsewhere.

We are the perennial struggling Charlotte Hornets, we don't have the option to land whoever we want at a fair price.

they all went to better situations :roll:

LofJ · Post #850 » by **LofJ** » Sat Dec 12, 2020 5:53 pm

DY_nasty wrote:
LofJ wrote:This team tries and fails to sign free agents all the time. Last year Cauley-Stein turned us down and this year Duncan Robinson, Montrezl Harrell, and DeMarcus Cousins all turned us down. And in most of these instances they turned down more money from us to play for less elsewhere.

We are the perennial struggling Charlotte Hornets, we don't have the option to land whoever we want at a fair price.

they all went to better situations

Exactly, this team can't always get players even when we overpay. We have to consistently win if we ever want that to change.

amcoolio · Post #851 » by **amcoolio** » Sat Dec 12, 2020 6:19 pm

Thank god we didn't pay Harrell 18M in a S&T for Rozier which is what is rumored

BlackOutBuzz · Post #852 » by **BlackOutBuzz** » Sat Dec 12, 2020 6:55 pm

Read on Twitter

Petition to rename the thread "Tiger King."

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Post #853 » by **BigSlam** » Sat Dec 12, 2020 10:03 pm

BlackOutBuzz wrote:Petition to rename the thread "Tiger King."

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How can it not be???

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Post #854 » by **BigSlam** » Sat Dec 12, 2020 10:08 pm

We also should start calling him Gordon Exotic.

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Liver_Pooty · Post #855 » by **Liver_Pooty** » Sat Dec 12, 2020 10:59 pm

BigSlam wrote:We also should start calling him Gordon Exotic.

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Lol. I like that.

LofJ · Post #856 » by **LofJ** » Tue Dec 15, 2020 7:05 pm

With the free agent market for next summer drying up early it makes sense why no one wanted Batum's expiring contract. I also highly doubt we would have signed a better player next offseason had we waited until then to spend cap space.

BlackOutBuzz · Post #857 » by **BlackOutBuzz** » Tue Dec 15, 2020 7:28 pm

LofJ wrote:With the free agent market for next summer drying up early it makes sense why no one wanted Batum's expiring contract. I also highly doubt we would have signed a better player next offseason had we waited until then to spend cap space.

Yep!

It's kinda what I mentioned a little after the signing about how I appreciated the FO being opportunistic by signing Hayward (even if I would've preferred to stay the course). Only 3 teams had capspace this year and the league wasn't anticipating Hayward being avaliable.

Now Hayward - along with Giannis, LeBron, Davis, and George - are all off the board when many more teams will have space next offseason. Even many of the top potential RFAs have already been extended: Mitchell, Bam, Tatum, Fox.

Kawhi is still out there, for now, and the other top FAs are currently Oladipo, Gobert, DeRozan, and CP and Griffin should they opt out.

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MasterIchiro · Post #858 » by **MasterIchiro** » Tue Dec 15, 2020 7:40 pm

LofJ wrote:With the free agent market for next summer drying up early it makes sense why no one wanted Batum's expiring contract. I also highly doubt we would have signed a better player next offseason had we waited until then to spend cap space.

Hayward was a good play. We're giving LaMelo the royal treatment. The Bucks had to scramble to satisfy Giannis last minute, sacrificing how many drafts? We set the tone with LaMelo, meet the salary floor if we find a good trade option for Rozier and still have 27 million cap to play in this market. Winning teams aren't going to postpone moves in-season for these remaining free agents. We should be able to attract a second tier player with Hayward. And Kupchak has hinted that we have our sights on someone from the 2021 class. Could be Gobert. Could be Allen, Drummond. Could be Oladipo. It's early but it looks like a good market read by Kupchak. Knicks are gonna be an overpay paradise for some of these second tier guys. Some will have standards though and want respectability.

Post #859 » by **BigSlam** » Tue Dec 15, 2020 8:16 pm

I've enjoyed watching Gordon play the 2 preseason games. His playing style, while not flashy, is very appeasing to the eye.

Someone mentioned last night that he is a "silent scorer" - which I thought was a brilliant way to sum up his playing style and impact.

Liver_Pooty · Post #860 » by **Liver_Pooty** » Tue Dec 15, 2020 8:38 pm

BigSlam wrote:I've enjoyed watching Gordon play the 2 preseason games. His playing style, while not flashy, is very appeasing to the eye.

Someone mentioned last night that he is a "silent scorer" - which I thought was a brilliant way to sum up his playing style and impact.

He had what something like 14,4 and 4 in limited minutes? I never would've guessed that. Dude just goes out does his thing makes everyone around him better and is insanely efficient