Preseason Game 2: Suns @ Jazz, Monday, Dec 14, 7:00 PM

[sunshoopjunky]

Huh? He plays nothing like David Robinson. People only compared his physical attributes to Robinson. Similar physique and athletic ability. Very very different players. Robinson averaged 10.2 FT/G as a rookie. Ayton averages 10.2 FT a week.

Very disappointed with Ayton so far. His defense looked great in the bubble but this dude just keeps taking 2 steps forward and 1 step back. Was hoping he'd come out looking dominate on d but he looks as bad as he ever has. Was talking his defense up in the gen board and now I'm looking like a fool.

He plays a great deal like David Robinson you should watch some comparison videos there are tons. David was drafted when he was 24 so let's compare those stats again in 2 more years once Ayton turns 24. That's exactly what I mean about Suns fans and bigs. 2 preseason games in. In the first game, Ayton got in early foul trouble. Let me guess we should trade him right?

[lilfishi22]

I hate how Suns fans give up on bigs so easily. He has always been compared or projected to be like David Robinson even when he was in high school. But we want him to play like Zo.

Ayton is hesitating in many areas still. But watch how quickly he gets rid of defensive rebounds recently. He has obviously been working on it. It shows he can make choices quickly.

Once he translates that to other areas we will see some special things. If he focuses on creating the contact and sees some success IE no foul problems that will expedite his confidence and translate very quickly on the floor.

Huh? He plays nothing like David Robinson. People only compared his physical attributes to Robinson. Similar physique and athletic ability. Very very different players. Robinson averaged 10.2 FT/G as a rookie. Ayton averages 10.2 FT a week.

Very disappointed with Ayton so far. His defense looked great in the bubble but this dude just keeps taking 2 steps forward and 1 step back. Was hoping he'd come out looking dominate on d but he looks as bad as he ever has. Was talking his defense up in the gen board and now I'm looking like a fool.

The maths actually checks out....*sigh*

I think with Ayton, he's always going to be one of those guy who need time to get into the flow of things. Like Jokic playing himself into shape and being an MVP candidate by midseason, except Ayton is playing himself into an average NBA C

[sunshoopjunky]

What we need to work on is getting into our make offense earlier down the floor we are starting it too deeply. We also need to get better defined on how and when we are crashing the boards. Personally, I would recommend following our shots unless there is a flyby defender. We are not run and gun anymore so we should be able to get more offensive rebounds by crashing and following our shots. We also need to figure out our perimeter defense. Is it Ayotns fault we let Utah hit 29 3 pointers in the last 2 games?

[lilfishi22]

What we need to work on is getting into our make offense earlier down the floor we are starting it too deeply. We also need to get better defined on how and when we are crashing the boards. Personally, I would recommend following our shots unless there is a flyby defender. We are not run and gun anymore so we should be able to get more offensive rebounds by crashing and following our shots. We also need to figure out our perimeter defense. Is it Ayotns fault we let Utah hit 29 3 pointers in the last 2 games?

There are a myriad of reason why we were blown out and it's not all because of Ayton and I don't see anyone saying it's Ayton's fault we were blown out. We're criticsing his performance because he's showing some clear regression even though we now have a CP3 to make his life monumentally easier. But the same issues from the past are still around, from him not taking it hard to Gobert when he had Gobert out of position, to getting stuck in no-man's land with no hope of doing anything defensively and to the poor conditioning.

These were issues that he dealt with in Year 1, Year 2 and now Year 3. He doesn't have to address them completely but to see regression is disheartening especially when it comes to a former #1 pick

[cberry78]

David Robinson was a 24-year-old rookie that played 127 NCAA games over 4 full seasons before doing his 2-year "stint" in the Navy.

Ayton is entering his 3rd year in the NBA, at 21 years old having played 144 games combined at the NCAA & NBA level over the last 3 years.

I'm not going to say DA's the next Robinson, but it is FAR too early to give up on a 7 footer who averages 18 & 12 without even trying. Especially after 2 pre-season games, with an undermanned team, with 8 (?) new players - including a new starting PG and probably a new starting PF (that hasn't even been on the court yet), and an extremely abbreviated "off-season".

Yeah, I'm going to be patient.

[sunshoopjunky]

These were issues that he dealt with in Year 1, Year 2 and now Year 3. He doesn't have to address them completely but to see regression is disheartening especially when it comes to a former #1 pick

Chris Paul did make it easier for him. I liked how he fed him the ball consistently during the series of plays where CP3 got on him about not dunking and then he dunked it and then the jump ball. It was awesome to see the teaching going on by CP3.

Not that I agree or disagree with anyone about what Ayton is or is not correctly doing but let's say he is a complete bust and won't be in the league in 5 years. Or maybe he was a waste of a #1 pick? Or the NBA is moving away from big men? Whatever.

My problem is that I have a hard time relating to fans that call Ayton's performance a regression? Why not rust? Or even maybe a terrible game? What kind of fans are we? Suns fans lol! how have we gotten to the point where we are dishearted about a regression that we make up in our own mind. We don't have enough data to determine if there has been a regression. The very act of calling it a regression is disheartening to me.

[lilfishi22]

David Robinson was a 24-year-old rookie that played 127 NCAA games over 4 full seasons before doing his 2-year "stint" in the Navy.

Ayton is entering his 3rd year in the NBA, at 21 years old having played 144 games combined at the NCAA & NBA level over the last 3 years.

I'm not going to say DA's the next Robinson, but it is FAR too early to give up on a 7 footer who averages 18 & 12 without even trying. Especially after 2 pre-season games, with an undermanned team, with 8 (?) new players - including a new starting PG and probably a new starting PF (that hasn't even been on the court yet), and an extremely abbreviated "off-season".

Yeah, I'm going to be patient.

I think it's more lowering expectations than giving up on him. It's clear to me that unless he has a miraculous change in mentality, having the physical tools is just not going to be enough to propel him into a top C. Now if he continues to improve his skillset and becomes really good defensively, he might be on the fringes of being a top 5 C (which isn't saying a ton these days because the drop of after 4-5 is huge for bigs). But if we are to have appropriate expectations of a #1 pick, it will have to come through a massive change in mentality.

And I'm not calling you specifically because I quoted you but I have read other posters put forward the argument that he's a 7fter putting up 19/12 without trying and that frustrates me because it's Year 3, WHEN is going to start trying? Why is a guy with all the tools he has and the skill need time (and our patience) to start trying?

Look, he's a Phoenix Sun, he was our one and only #1 pick in our long history and for that alone, as long as he stays a model citizen I'm never going to give up on him getting better. But my hope of him being really really damn good and what people said he was suppose to be coming out of college is very quickly being dashed.

[WeekapaugGroove]

David Robinson was a 24-year-old rookie that played 127 NCAA games over 4 full seasons before doing his 2-year "stint" in the Navy.

Ayton is entering his 3rd year in the NBA, at 21 years old having played 144 games combined at the NCAA & NBA level over the last 3 years.

I'm not going to say DA's the next Robinson, but it is FAR too early to give up on a 7 footer who averages 18 & 12 without even trying. Especially after 2 pre-season games, with an undermanned team, with 8 (?) new players - including a new starting PG and probably a new starting PF (that hasn't even been on the court yet), and an extremely abbreviated "off-season".

Yeah, I'm going to be patient.

I'm not freaking out about a preseason game but there is a very real timeline here where the suns need to make a huge financial commitment as soon as next summer and no later than the summer of 2022. This year will be huge for him.

Sent from my SM-G986U using RealGM mobile app

[Revived]

I know it's preseason, but it's kinda demoralising to see us getting blown out twice in succession.

we might get blown out twice more against the lakers lol

Thankfully not, Lakers aren’t playing LeBron and AD in the preseason.

[bhawk]

David Robinson was a 24-year-old rookie that played 127 NCAA games over 4 full seasons before doing his 2-year "stint" in the Navy.

Ayton is entering his 3rd year in the NBA, at 21 years old having played 144 games combined at the NCAA & NBA level over the last 3 years.

I'm not going to say DA's the next Robinson, but it is FAR too early to give up on a 7 footer who averages 18 & 12 without even trying. Especially after 2 pre-season games, with an undermanned team, with 8 (?) new players - including a new starting PG and probably a new starting PF (that hasn't even been on the court yet), and an extremely abbreviated "off-season".

Yeah, I'm going to be patient.

I think it's more lowering expectations than giving up on him. It's clear to me that unless he has a miraculous change in mentality, having the physical tools is just not going to be enough to propel him into a top C. Now if he continues to improve his skillset and becomes really good defensively, he might be on the fringes of being a top 5 C (which isn't saying a ton these days because the drop of after 4-5 is huge for bigs). But if we are to have appropriate expectations of a #1 pick, it will have to come through a massive change in mentality.

And I'm not calling you specifically because I quoted you but I have read other posters put forward the argument that he's a 7fter putting up 19/12 without trying and that frustrates me because it's Year 3, WHEN is going to start trying? Why is a guy with all the tools he has and the skill need time (and our patience) to start trying?

Look, he's a Phoenix Sun, he was our one and only #1 pick in our long history and for that alone, as long as he stays a model citizen I'm never going to give up on him getting better. But my hope of him being really really damn good and what people said he was suppose to be coming out of college is very quickly being dashed.

Well said, lilfishi22. I will personally give Ayton the benefit of the doubt until he is no longer a PHX Sun player. I am a Suns fan 1st and will cheer for players that play for our franchise. It is maddening to me that a guy with Ayton's physical gifts and our #1 draft pick is not showing any progress. He regressed in the bubble and his poor play has carried over to pre-season.

From a casual fan... where is Ayton's heart? Does he want to improve his game? Does he even care? The sad fact is that this may be it for Ayton. His ceiling may be realized as AVERAGE center in the NBA. He'll have bad games against good teams, and pad his stats against bad ones. He'll get by with 18/12 just by being big and athletic.

To me, that is a huge disappointment. I don't want to our #1 draft pick to be average. I want him to be good. Really good. Is that so much to ask? We've had waaaaaaaay too many draft busts, and it hurts that Ayton is CHOOSING to be average right now. Key word "choosing." I really hope he turns it around this year. I'm very close to not caring any more.

[GoodBehavior]

Besides Booker, I don't think anyone is ready for the regular season. DA deserves some blame because he's an important piece of the puzzle. But if we're being totally honest, the rest of the team looks terrible.

I have become a Jalen Smith fanboy, but kid's shooting isn't there yet nor his defense, nor his rebounding and overall physicality. Cam Johnson, someone who I like a lot, hasn't been great in one game. Chris Paul looks bad on D. Bridges' jump shot looks meh and his defense isn't as great as I would like. Payne looks like a back of the rotation player. Carter had a bad game. Damian Jones belong in college. Team can't play perimeter defense. Can't rebound. Terrible ball movement ... I can go on forever..

I think it's a symptom of not having an organized training camp. This team will have its bumps, but I think at some point, it will come together. Let's not forget the team played better in the first half of the game. Fatigue set in and it all went downhill. Everyone made mistakes during that third quarter. Being tired will do that to you.

As it relates to DA, since that's the topic du jour. Make no mistake: barring a cocaine addiction or injury, this kid is going to dominate. . Will we see it this year? Hopefully. Maybe. By the end of his first contract, very likely. Monty says he will be a force. Booker says he will dominate. And Frank Kaminsky believe he has taken the next step.

https://arizonasports.com/story/2430130/suns-frank-kaminsky-took-on-veteran-role-with-c-deandre-ayton/

[lilfishi22]

These were issues that he dealt with in Year 1, Year 2 and now Year 3. He doesn't have to address them completely but to see regression is disheartening especially when it comes to a former #1 pick

Chris Paul did make it easier for him. I liked how he fed him the ball consistently during the series of plays where CP3 got on him about not dunking and then he dunked it and then the jump ball. It was awesome to see the teaching going on by CP3.

Not that I agree or disagree with anyone about what Ayton is or is not correctly doing but let's say he is a complete bust and won't be in the league in 5 years. Or maybe he was a waste of a #1 pick? Or the NBA is moving away from big men? Whatever.

My problem is that I have a hard time relating to fans that call Ayton's performance a regression? Why not rust? Or even maybe a terrible game? What kind of fans are we? Suns fans lol! how have we gotten to the point where we are dishearted about a regression that we make up in our own mind. We don't have enough data to determine if there has been a regression. The very act of calling it a regression is disheartening to me.

Call it what you want but it's a step back. Regression suggest something short/medium term where as rust or a bad game suggests something very temporary. It's how long we think his bad game or his rust is gonna stick around.

But echoing what WeekapaugGroove has mentioned, this is just a preseason game which doesn't go towards his permanents stats but we have a timeline on deciding whether he can become a David Robinson-esque player as you've alluded to or just a good C and the difference is a pretty significant financial commitment. Are we committing to a guy that has shown the promise that he could be an absolute monster on both ends of the court or are we overpaying for a C who gets you an easy 18/12 but rarely shows he can seriously impact the game? The fact that this is Year 3, arguably the most important season of his young career, the margin of error for him is small and any set backs or even plateauing will be critically examined.

[nevetsov]

It seemed like we're trying to make Ayton into a pick and roll big, but it's really unnatural for him?

So many times he'd pop up and set the screen, and then mechanically time a run to the basket, but he'd have no gravity in his roll. It's like he is running a drill out there. He looks like he's running in for a rebound and not looking to receive, but then he doesn't run into a rebounding position either.

I actually think we need Jalen setting that high screen for the pick-and-pop (ala Channing Frye) and have Ayton roaming the baseline for either the drop off pass, alley oop, or midrange shot. Let him play his natural instinctive game rather than making him think about timing on a roll.

[Blackification]

I know it's preseason, but it's kinda demoralising to see us getting blown out twice in succession.

we might get blown out twice more against the lakers lol

Thankfully not, Lakers aren’t playing LeBron and AD in the preseason.

They're playing tomorrow
https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/30528174/lebron-james-anthony-davis-make-preseason-debuts-wednesday-los-angeles-lakers

[Blonde]

I don’t think playing another big next to Ayton does him any favors. He’ll look better with Crowder starting I expect. A 4 out offense has always been the ideal setup with a rim rolling vertical lob threat. He has to cut out the midrange. He *has* to use his athleticism to get to the rim more. Yeah yeah only in his 3rd season but if a leap is not made this year I wouldn’t expect a big leap at all. Development is not exponential past a certain point. I feel he does not take his craft seriously and coasts by on talent and that’s not going to be enough if the guy want to make all star games at some point.

[RedIndian]

Yeah, a two big line-up is something Monty blows into permanent oblivion. Literally no team plays like that anymore.

Ayton with 2 wings and 2 guards is the way to go.

On that subject, I must say that Damian Jones is most unimpressive. I hope our bench bigs are Saric and Smith, and Jones plays in garbage time only.

[RedIndian]

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[Mulhollanddrive]

Suns have me pondering Point Saric after 2 pre-season games.

[Biff]

I hate how Suns fans give up on bigs so easily. He has always been compared or projected to be like David Robinson even when he was in high school. But we want him to play like Zo.

Ayton is hesitating in many areas still. But watch how quickly he gets rid of defensive rebounds recently. He has obviously been working on it. It shows he can make choices quickly.

Once he translates that to other areas we will see some special things. If he focuses on creating the contact and sees some success IE no foul problems that will expedite his confidence and translate very quickly on the floor.

Huh? He plays nothing like David Robinson. People only compared his physical attributes to Robinson. Similar physique and athletic ability. Very very different players. Robinson averaged 10.2 FT/G as a rookie. Ayton averages 10.2 FT a week.

Very disappointed with Ayton so far. His defense looked great in the bubble but this dude just keeps taking 2 steps forward and 1 step back. Was hoping he'd come out looking dominate on d but he looks as bad as he ever has. Was talking his defense up in the gen board and now I'm looking like a fool.

The maths actually checks out....*sigh*

I think with Ayton, he's always going to be one of those guy who need time to get into the flow of things. Like Jokic playing himself into shape and being an MVP candidate by midseason, except Ayton is playing himself into an average NBA C

Well, IDK, he's better than average. The frustrating thing with Ayton is he has the physical package to be the best center in the league. People expect David Robinson because he has the same kind of physical superiority but he just doesn't have the same motor and drive. It's just frustrating when you know you're only getting 70-75% of what this guy is capable of.

[bwgood77]

I don’t think playing another big next to Ayton does him any favors. He’ll look better with Crowder starting I expect. A 4 out offense has always been the ideal setup with a rim rolling vertical lob threat. He has to cut out the midrange. He *has* to use his athleticism to get to the rim more. Yeah yeah only in his 3rd season but if a leap is not made this year I wouldn’t expect a big leap at all. Development is not exponential past a certain point. I feel he does not take his craft seriously and coasts by on talent and that’s not going to be enough if the guy want to make all star games at some point.

He's still only played 102 games or so, so he hasn't really played a typical 2 full seasons where this is his 3rd full season. So a little different than usual.

And as I mentioned in the Ayton thread, many Cs and actually most of them take a few years to really improve....especially the 1 and done ones.