Giannis SIGNS

[coolhandluke121]

What does that have to do with the post you quoted at all? Are you saying Jrue is better than Harden or Steph? Did you see Shaffty's post about how Giannis wanted Schroder and expressed concern to the front office when they didn't get him?

my bad pal....i was reading your posts and nodding as i usually do when i saw you talking about a 2-3 year window. i think i kept reading on to the next one and clicked that one to respond. you know were in agreement most of the time i figured id debate that point with you. just that the current cast, as it relates to age.... is on a great timeline thru giannis now current deal

I can buy a 3-year window for sure but I think it's going to be real tough to remain a contender when Jrue is 34. It's not just the age but the increasing salaries on the contracts of Giannis, Khris, and (presumably) Jrue. They might not even have the MLE or BAE for a few years to fill out the roster with serviceable guys. And besides DDV they haven't done anything to restock the supporting cast with young, cheap role-playing talent for years.

By the way, I was talking about after this year when I mentioned a 2-3 year window. This year is not part of Giannis's supermax.

[LUKE23]

Bucks should extend Holiday 3 years. That lines up he and Middleton for four years with Giannis, Holiday being 33 his last year and Middleton being 32. Allows you to retool in FA before Giannis’ last guaranteed year if need be. Holiday/Midds should be productive throughout those four years as well.

[buckboy]

Disagree on Schroder. The difference between Holiday and Schroder is way more than (in your first example) 2 pick swaps that will likely never happen, a late 20s first and that '27 pick (which is the only one I'm worried about).

And when I say that I'm mostly concerned about the immediate future. Our window is now. Schroder isn't helping us win anything now.

I think you're grossly overstating how far the team is from winning a title if you don't think expiring contracts + picks for Schroder helps them at all. And the picks (especially the ones after Giannis could opt out) would make a huge difference in making a competitive offer while trading Khris for Harden.

I meant Schroder doesn't help much when comparing him to Holiday.

No doubt on the Harden stuff. Although I doubt the Bucks ever make an offer for Harden either way. Now, other stars will become available, but I don't think we have what it takes to get them with or without those picks. Maybe. But I doubt it.

[Ron Swanson]

Would have been more than fine not giving up all the draft picks for Holiday, but Dennis Schroder would have been an incredibly pathetic Plan A. Playing with a guy like Chris Paul (and now Lebron) has done wonders for his perception around the league.

[GHOSTofSIKMA]

What does that have to do with the post you quoted at all? Are you saying Jrue is better than Harden or Steph? Did you see Shaffty's post about how Giannis wanted Schroder and expressed concern to the front office when they didn't get him?

my bad pal....i was reading your posts and nodding as i usually do when i saw you talking about a 2-3 year window. i think i kept reading on to the next one and clicked that one to respond. you know were in agreement most of the time i figured id debate that point with you. just that the current cast, as it relates to age.... is on a great timeline thru giannis now current deal

I can buy a 3-year window for sure but I think it's going to be real tough to remain a contender when Jrue is 34. It's not just the age but the increasing salaries on the contracts of Giannis, Khris, and (presumably) Jrue. They might not even have the MLE or BAE for a few years to fill out the roster with serviceable guys. And besides DDV they haven't done anything to restock the supporting cast with young, cheap role-playing talent for years.

By the way, I was talking about after this year when I mentioned a 2-3 year window. This year is not part of Giannis's supermax.

counting this year im going with 5 years. you look at the pgs with the top 10 rpms in this league and like 8 of them are 32-36. i swear with that position especially the older they get the better they get. i just dont see holiday falling off like that either

[har13]

Thanks for the ESPN Insider summary.

Does this part mean there was a scenario where Giannis would have happily extended if we would have acquired Schroder + Bogdan instead of Holiday? Or is that reading too much into it?

Schroder was dealt for Danny Green + #27.

OKC ultimately acquired George Hill from the Pelicans.

I suspect who we were including as cap filler with #24 was the sticking point for the Thunder in our offer for Schroder. We probably were offering Ersan and / or Wilson vs Hill, who has already jumped into a leadership role:

https://okcthunderwire.usatoday.com/2020/12/11/as-one-of-the-80s-kids-george-hill-jumps-into-leadership-role/

I forget where but remember reading in one of the new pieces that the Bucks were reticent to include Hill in the Holiday package and only included him at the end, and then eventually added an extra pick + an extra swap to seal the deal.

The Bucks definitely got the best overall player and Giannis extended, which was far from guaranteed!

That said, these alternative history scenarios seem like fodder to be debated for years to come depending on how things go from here.

I don't like Schroder very much but damn, if they could have gotten him for Bledsoe/#24 or Hill/Ersan/#24 instead of making the Jrue trade and Giannis wanted him, that is really upsetting. It makes sense considering how much he likes international players. Damn. They'd still have all those picks to fart around with Harden trades, and who knows who else becomes available.

A couple thoughts:

1. Schroder is also on the record as saying Milwaukee is his favorite city in the NBA, so he almost certainly would have been happy to come here and sign an extension.

2. Even if we had swung a trade for Schroder instead of Holiday, I highly highly doubt we would have been serious players for Harden (or Steph if people actually think Steph might want out of Golden State). Especially considering that timing wise, Giannis likely would have signed the supermax before a Harden/Steph trade occurred, thus depreciating the value of the picks we would have available anyways.

3. I'm still pretty iffy on the Jrue trade because I think pretty much any rational person would agree it was an overpay. At the same time though, getting Jrue, who is probably a top 30 player in the NBA is just far more impactful than getting Schroder, who is arguably a starting caliber PG but might not be.

At that time we didnt know that Harden wanted a trade but we all have opinions about what we needed,

I have posted so its there that i believe that Bucks needed an upgrade on both guard positions and 3 bench players, one who can shoot, one who can score and a big, i now believe that they did wanted that too.

Schroder was who i believed they will bring, not the best but realistic upgrade for less than Bledsoe contract too, also we needed one first round pick, i didn't even know we can offer so many of our picks for trades.

Next was Bogdan ( i wanted Hardaway to be honest, he had a player option so maybe a trade could happen), a player that fits with us and our team well cause he can shoot and can create for him and others, not great fit defensively with Schroeder to be honest tho.

What i believe happened was that after LA trade for Schroeder only Holiday could be a big upgrade over Bledsoe, i swear i wanted to post that we are going to get Holiday 100% just after Paul signed for the Sans, he was the only one out there, didn't expect us to give so much but i want to believe that they thought that also Bogdan was 100% coming for just Donte and Ersan /DJ so **** it and sign Holiday , the goal was there even with an overpay we have done the upgrade on both our guards positions.
Bogdan trade then didnt happen, i bet they tried for something else but they already offered all our picks so...

For me they did wrong not waiting for Holiday, i saw that Boston offered them 3 first round picks but from 2020 draft, 2 later first round picks from us is better than what Boston offered them cause i believe NO wants to use the picks for a future trade to help Zion, we could keep and trade if we wanted this year draft pick and at least one draft pick swap.

[crowhead76]

I had read that the Lakers and Schroder are already not in full agreement on his role. Schroder wants to start and Vogel may want to bring him off the bench and keep LeBron starting at the 1.

[SirChurros]

If you think the Bucks would ever make a move for a guy like Harden with the stuff coming out about Giannis recruiting guys like Schroder and Bogdan, you're .

[DingleJerry]

I also would've been underwhelmed with Schroeder as the 'big move'. But the price he'd cost vs what Jrue cost is drastically better value on Schroeder. The big unknown variable would be what else they could get with the remaining assets that didn't go out for Jrue. Maybe Bogdan + more, it's just impossible to know what else could've come in. Heck, maybe you could've found a way for it to be Schroeder and Jrue. But neither of those are great shooters, but they are better players than what we had in the playoffs the last two years in terms of being able to make things happen.

[har13]

I had read that the Lakers and Schroder are already not in full agreement on his role. Schroder wants to start and Vogel may want to bring him off the bench and keep LeBron starting at the 1.

I do believe that Vogel is right.

[All The Bucks]

I mean let's be real, shouldn't they be talking about what teams should be on Steph's short trade demand list? If the Bucks hadn't traded so many picks for Jrue, they would probably be pretty high on that hypothetical list.

I'm not trying to litigate the Jrue trade again, but those people who dismissed the notion that the Bucks might have done better by saving those picks for a bigger opportunity are going to have some serious backtracking to do if Harden and then Steph both hit the trade market within months of the Jrue deal. Again, that's why you always insist on getting fair value for assets, except in the most pressing circumstances. Granted, getting Jrue to convince Giannis to sign might qualify, but all indications are that the only real demand he made is to continue investing in the team as much as possible and start paying the tax.

This is great and all and I agree with you to an extent every time you post it. It was a clear overpay and apparently (the news suggests at least) that the Bucks knew it was an overpay. But there was a small window for Giannis to sign the Supermax. And when that window opened, the only top 30 level player who was clearly available was Jrue Holiday. Not only does it appear that Giannis needed an acquisition like this to make the commitment, allowing a competitor to land Jrue instead, might have further cemented the idea in his mind that the deck was stacked against him in Milwaukee. Waiting for a Harden to demand out or a Steph to became available really wasn't an option. I think we can put this to rest.

There's no evidence that he demanded major changes though. He wanted Bogdanovic, Oladipo, or Beal, but he still signed even though they didn't get any of them (and failed to get one of them in one of the more embarrassing transactional failures in recent memory). The only thing we have evidence that he was concerned about was avoiding the luxury tax. Even after the collapse against Miami, he very publicly made declarations to the effect that he wasn't going to take the easy way out or be a malcontent. I'm at the point where I believe he would have extended as long as they spent the MLE and promised him they would pay the tax and do everything they can to make the team better.

You can't "put it to rest" with zero concrete evidence that Giannis needed a move like the Jrue trade to happen now. He has clearly been leaning strongly towards staying for a long time.

ETA: And a few posts later, someone points out that Giannis wanted Schroder and expressed concern to the front office when the Bucks didn't get him. The Lakers got him for Danny Green and #27.

Now all you're really doing is showing how bad of a GM Giannis is. So you'd be happier if they would've given up fewer assets and had a worse roster?

In the end, they got the best player who was actually AVAILABLE at the time they could offer the Supermax and he SIGNED it. They didn't acquiesce to his ill-sighted requests and he signed anyway. To me they thread the needle on this one. They got a player better than anyone Giannis was pining for, and it didn't stop him from committing. The easier route would've been to go get whoever Giannis asked for and wind up with a lesser team.

Btw, that's exactly what happened with Lebron and the Cavs and instead of blaming himself for those poor decisions, Lebron left.

[machu46]

I don't like Schroder very much but damn, if they could have gotten him for Bledsoe/#24 or Hill/Ersan/#24 instead of making the Jrue trade and Giannis wanted him, that is really upsetting. It makes sense considering how much he likes international players. Damn. They'd still have all those picks to fart around with Harden trades, and who knows who else becomes available.

A couple thoughts:

1. Schroder is also on the record as saying Milwaukee is his favorite city in the NBA, so he almost certainly would have been happy to come here and sign an extension.

2. Even if we had swung a trade for Schroder instead of Holiday, I highly highly doubt we would have been serious players for Harden (or Steph if people actually think Steph might want out of Golden State). Especially considering that timing wise, Giannis likely would have signed the supermax before a Harden/Steph trade occurred, thus depreciating the value of the picks we would have available anyways.

3. I'm still pretty iffy on the Jrue trade because I think pretty much any rational person would agree it was an overpay. At the same time though, getting Jrue, who is probably a top 30 player in the NBA is just far more impactful than getting Schroder, who is arguably a starting caliber PG but might not be.

At that time we didnt know that Harden wanted a trade but we all have opinions about what we needed,

I have posted so its there that i believe that Bucks needed an upgrade on both guard positions and 3 bench players, one who can shoot, one who can score and a big, i now believe that they did wanted that too.

Schroder was who i believed they will bring, not the best but realistic upgrade for less than Bledsoe contract too, also we needed one first round pick, i didn't even know we can offer so many of our picks for trades.

Next was Bogdan ( i wanted Hardaway to be honest, he had a player option so maybe a trade could happen), a player that fits with us and our team well cause he can shoot and can create for him and others, not great fit defensively with Schroeder to be honest tho.

What i believe happened was that after LA trade for Schroeder only Holiday could be a big upgrade over Bledsoe, i swear i wanted to post that we are going to get Holiday 100% just after Paul signed for the Sans, he was the only one out there, didn't expect us to give so much but i want to believe that they thought that also Bogdan was 100% coming for just Donte and Ersan /DJ so **** it and sign Holiday , the goal was there even with an overpay we have done the upgrade on both our guards positions.
Bogdan trade then didnt happen, i bet they tried for something else but they already offered all our picks so...

For me they did wrong not waiting for Holiday, i saw that Boston offered them 3 first round picks but from 2020 draft, 2 later first round picks from us is better than what Boston offered them cause i believe NO wants to use the picks for a future trade to help Zion, we could keep and trade if we wanted this year draft pick and at least one draft pick swap.

Also re: Schroder, he would have been a downgrade on paper compared to Bledsoe. Obviously we know Bledsoe has had serious issues in the playoffs at this point, so it's not as simple as looking at it on paper. But if we had traded Bledsoe for Schroder, you're basically crossing your fingers and hoping that Schroder continues to show improvement and becomes an upgrade at the PG spot (and to be fair, he's still young and has never played with a player of Giannis' caliber before so you could argue that kind of improvement would be expected). Jrue is a clear upgrade over Bledsoe, no improvement needed on his part.

[GHOSTofSIKMA]

Bucks should extend Holiday 3 years. That lines up he and Middleton for four years with Giannis, Holiday being 33 his last year and Middleton being 32. Allows you to retool in FA before Giannis’ last guaranteed year if need be. Holiday/Midds should be productive throughout those four years as well.

i do like the idea of lining up holiday with middleton both as exprings the year before giannis potentially has a decision again. that allows us to retool that salary and or deal them as expirings. honestly if we dont have a title by then i think its fair to suggest that would be the obvious route we'd take

[crowhead76]

If Schroder wants out of LA at some point this year, finding a 3rd team to get involved and moving Brook + Wilson may be in the realm of possibility. They would need to bring in another center, either someone like Dedmon, who has played in this scheme and is familiar with Schroder, or someone off the buyout market.

Schroder - Augsutine - Merrill
Jrue - DDV - Forbes
Middleton - Craig - Thanasis
Giannis - Nwora
Portis - Dedmon

[GBBucks]

In no world would I give up Bledose + 24 for Schroder.

What a lateral move from bledsoe to schroder and it costs a 1st round pick. Would have rather kept bledsoe and used the first along with other things for an actual upgrade.

[coolhandluke121]

I also would've been underwhelmed with Schroeder as the 'big move'. But the price he'd cost vs what Jrue cost is drastically better value on Schroeder. The big unknown variable would be what else they could get with the remaining assets that didn't go out for Jrue. Maybe Bogdan + more, it's just impossible to know what else could've come in. Heck, maybe you could've found a way for it to be Schroeder and Jrue. But neither of those are great shooters, but they are better players than what we had in the playoffs the last two years in terms of being able to make things happen.

You also have to factor in the difference in eventual salary for Jrue vs. Schroder. It's looking like the Bucks won't have the full MLE or the BAE for years. That matters too.

I don't disagree with anyone who doesn't think Schroder is that good, but the most important thing was making sure Giannis extends and it sounds like he wanted Schroder. And Schroder would continue to get a lot less defensive attention than he got in Atlanta, so it's not unreasonable to think he would be more likely to put up OKC numbers than ATL numbers.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion but I find the people completely dismissing the idea that a much cheaper offer for Schroder could have worked out better to be, well, dismissive.

[har13]

If you think the Bucks would ever make a move for a guy like Harden with the stuff coming out about Giannis recruiting guys like Schroder and Bogdan, you're .

This is Nba man, you cant bring who ever you like, actually both of them were the only of few realistic targets at the time, who you wanted? It was those 2, paul, Holiday, Galinari, Oladipo and i dont know if anyone else... I laugh when guys saying what you just said, again who you wanted? A realistic target, maybe Paul? With Paul you cant sign anyone else, so whom?

Now we couldn't know that Harden wanted out of Houston so i can't blame them but i can see easily Houston accepting a Khris and 2 first round picks (not even 3) and swaps for Harden.

[coolhandluke121]

Bucks should extend Holiday 3 years. That lines up he and Middleton for four years with Giannis, Holiday being 33 his last year and Middleton being 32. Allows you to retool in FA before Giannis’ last guaranteed year if need be. Holiday/Midds should be productive throughout those four years as well.

i do like the idea of lining up holiday with middleton both as exprings the year before giannis potentially has a decision again. that allows us to retool that salary and or deal them as expirings. honestly if we dont have a title by then i think its fair to suggest that would be the obvious route we'd take

I would be willing to bet a significant amount of money that Jrue commands at least a 4 year max deal in free agency though, and I am concerned that the Bucks might give him a 5-year Bird Rights max deal, or at least close to it. They gave Khris 5/$178m when no other team could give him more than 4/$140m.

[emunney]

Disagree on Schroder. The difference between Holiday and Schroder is way more than (in your first example) 2 pick swaps that will likely never happen, a late 20s first and that '27 pick (which is the only one I'm worried about).

And when I say that I'm mostly concerned about the immediate future. Our window is now. Schroder isn't helping us win anything now.

I think you're grossly overstating how far the team is from winning a title if you don't think expiring contracts + picks for Schroder helps them at all. And the picks (especially the ones after Giannis could opt out) would make a huge difference in making a competitive offer while trading Khris for Harden.

This is really neither here nor there, but I am imagining what you'd say if we traded for James Harden and he showed up for his first game looking like he ate James Harden.

[All The Bucks]

So you really are saying that it would have been ok to have a lesser team with fewer assets spent because Giannis would have been happy and re-signed. Interesting. Again that's a carbon copy of what transpired in Cleveland leading up to Lebron bailing on them after all of his preferred acquisitions left them with a garbage roster around him.